Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

[Timothew]

I don't make the rules. i'd be more than happy to discuss things with you. But we'll need to find a different place. As I don't own the site, no, I could not allow that. I don't have that authority.

That said, I do not believe God tortures people. I believe man's hate toward God make experiencing His love a self torture. And yes eternally. The Orthodox view of hell is not what most subscribe to here. Except for the Orthodox posters. I don't see hell as a place per say. I see hell as a condition of one's soul experiencing the love of God.
Consider this verse:"Thou preparest a table before me
in the presence of my enemies;
thou anointest my head with oil,
my cup overflows."
Now is this verse true? How so if our enemies cease to be? How so if they are separated completely from us? Would such a sight not be hell to our enemy?

I prepared a thread where we can freely discuss this as Christian Brothers and Sisters:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7840795/

 

[MoreCoffee]

Interesting response to Timothew.

I can hardly wait to see if he wants to select one of your two choices.

There is a great list identified in the first ten minutes here -- that does not fit your list either.

#134

in Christ,

Bob

I am not very interested in soul sleep and annihilationism. Those doctrines have been debated many times and they are at best heterodox and at worst heretical.

 

[Timothew]

I am not very interested in soul sleep and annihilationism. Those doctrines have been debated many times and they are at best heterodox and at worst heretical.

That's cool. I believe the Bible, if that makes me "heterodox" or "heretical" in your book, that's okay. I merely believe what the Bible says. As you have seen, John 3:16 contradicts your view. Perhaps you should pay more attention in those debates. Then you would understand the truth.

As someone else said, anyone who believes other than what your little denomination believes is automatically a heretic (in your denominational leaders' minds anyway). I'm not required to believe what they tell me, but you are. Be a good little soldier and believe what you are told. Muslims are also required to believe in eternal conscious torment in hell, so you are not alone.

 

[Timothew]

Can we have that cup of coffee over our open Bibles and discuss the nature of Hell as Christian friends?

I think it would be worthwhile to examine this. If I am wrong, and the Bible really does say that God will cause the lost to suffer eternal conscious torment in Hell, I want to know that.

On the other hand, if God doesn't send the lost to everlasting torture, wouldn't you want to know that too?

Matthew 10:28 seems relevant to a discussion about Hell. Jesus said that we shouldn't fear people who can kill the body but can't kill the soul, but we should fear the one who can destroy both the body AND the soul in Hell. The word Jesus used for Hell in this verse is Gehenna. It seems to me that if Jesus says that the body and souls of the lost will be destroyed, we would be right to believe him. Is there any reason that I shouldn't believe that the souls of the lost will be destroyed?

 

[seeingeyes]

As has already been said, a heresy is a belief in a significantly erroneous doctrine.

Universalism and Annihilationism are sufficiently unscriptural (for denying that there will indeed be an eternal separation from God for unrepentant sinners) that such ideas would be heretical.

I find your definition to be significantly erroneous.

Heresy is the denial of a core doctrine of the Christian faith. This or that particular view of hell simply does not qualify.

 

[Albion]

I find your definition to be significantly erroneous.

Heresy is the denial of a core doctrine of the Christian faith. This or that particular view of hell simply does not qualify.

You're guessing, of course. Denying the immortality of the soul (Annihilationism) is so much a denial of a fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith that it qualifies as a characteristic of a cult, let alone a simple heresy. And the idea that everyone will be saved sooner or later (denying that hell is eternal) is always considered a heresy because there would be no need for the Sacrifice of the Cross if the eternal destiny of believers and non-believers alike --or the good and the evil among us--was identical.

 

[hedrick]

CF gets to define what is allowed in CF. They don't get to define what is heresy. As far as I can tell, ECT has never been defined officially as the only orthodox position. Indeed my reading of the anathema against Origen is that it did not condemn universal reconciliation but rather Origen's teaching that after death we are restored to a preexisting state with no body.

There are enough voices supporting either annihilationism / conditionalism or at least its acceptability among evangelicals today that it's hard to say, except as a partisan statement, that it's unorthodox even in evangelical theology.

Is it right? The descriptions of hell are sufficiently symbolic that I suspect agnosticism on this subject is probably the safest viewpoint. The partisans of ECT seem to me to engage in cherry-picking. Looking at a list of passages claimed to support ECT, most of them are equivocal and several actually support UR. I think some kind of annihilation has at least as good support. I'm inclined to think that Jesus didn't teach either position, and that beliefs among early Christians may well have varied. This variation may well explain at least some of the complexity of the Biblical evidence. Jesus certainly did teach judgement. Universalism in the sense that our faith and what we do doesn't matter is clearly contrary to his teaching. Beyond that I don't think we can be absolutely confident. But destruction, in some sense, seems the most likely understanding.

 

[hedrick]

You're guessing, of course. Denying the immortality of the soul (Annihilationism) is so much a denial of a fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith that it qualifies as a characteristic of a cult, let alone a simple heresy. And the idea that everyone will be saved sooner or later (denying that hell is eternal) is always considered a heresy because there would be no need for the Sacrifice of the Cross if the eternal destiny of believers and non-believers alike --or the good and the evil among us--was identical.

Technically speaking, annihilationism doesn't deny the immortality of the soul. There is a viewpoint, conditionalism, that says the soul is not naturally immortal, but that selected people are given immortality by God. But as I understand it, many who believe in annihilationism believe that God destroys the damned. I trust you are not asserting that God is incapable of doing this.

I also think your argument against UR is invalid. Traditionally Christ's death is considered to be necessarily for salvation. it reconciles us with God. That his death might end up reconciling everyone certainly does not make it unnecessary.

You seem to be straining to make the differences seem greater than they are. Not a good approach for Christians to take to each other.

 

[Rick Otto]

I am happy to be a heretic.


Acts 24:13-15
13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after.... the way which they call heresy... so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


Better make sure you are RIGHT before calling out HERESY!

indeed!

 

[Rick Otto]

I wish that those who disagree with me on the issue of hell would just discuss it with me. Just a friendly discussion to clear the air. I wish we could sit down together face to face over a cup of coffee, with our bibles open, and discuss God's Word together as Christian brothers and sisters. What would be the harm in that? Nobody trying to convince anybody of anything, nobody saying that's a heresy, or that's unorthodox. Just all of us being together reading the Scriptures, growing together as Christians. Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice". Let's sit down together and listen for His voice. This is how people will know that we are Christians, by the love we have for one another.

Church of 2 or 3 Gathered.
Sounds scary. I do so love my pew.

 

[By Faith Alone]

Church of 2 or 3 Gathered.
Sounds scary. I do so love my pew.

And that ain't no building made of brick and mortar.

Eph 2:20-22
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Believers are likened to a building for the habitation of the Spirit. This building is NOT subject to damage from earthquakes but IS subject to corrosion from within from high-minded "cliques" that think they have it all.

 

[shturt678s]

Hello Jack:

Bottom rung of the ladder. Genesis 2:7 says body plus breath=life. Man BECAME a living soul and was not given a soul. One MUST show, in Scriptures, where man was GIVEN a soul for me to believe what you say. There is MUCH more evidence AGAINST than for.

John 3:16 says...PERISH...and not in some other life suffering.


http://www.christianforums.com/t7781557/

Good to hear your voice again By Faith Alone & brother Rick Otto...btw never got my paygrade incease yet.

You could be correct brother BFA...so let's eyeball Gen.2:7 again? God's Spiri animates the soul, though in a higher sense than is the case with the soul of beasts, ie, the soul is that portion of the spirit which is breathed into man.

Jn.3:16 needs to be construed with passages like Rev.20:10 for openers.

Don't give it too much thought as only an opinion from the bottom of the pecking order.

 

[seeingeyes]

You're guessing, of course. Denying the immortality of the soul (Annihilationism) is so much a denial of a fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith that it qualifies as a characteristic of a cult, let alone a simple heresy.

Is it a denial of the core of Christian faith to say that God can destroy a soul?

And the idea that everyone will be saved sooner or later (denying that hell is eternal) is always considered a heresy because there would be no need for the Sacrifice of the Cross if the eternal destiny of believers and non-believers alike --or the good and the evil among us--was identical.

Is it a denial of the core of Christian faith to say that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ extends to all men?

 

[James Is Back]

You're guessing, of course. Denying the immortality of the soul (Annihilationism) is so much a denial of a fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith that it qualifies as a characteristic of a cult, let alone a simple heresy. And the idea that everyone will be saved sooner or later (denying that hell is eternal) is always considered a heresy because there would be no need for the Sacrifice of the Cross if the eternal destiny of believers and non-believers alike --or the good and the evil among us--was identical.

And that is why I don't believe in universalism. What was the point of Jesus coming down and going through all that on the cross if there wasn't some sort of eternal punishment?

Makes it a waste of time on His part if that was the case.

 

[James Is Back]

Is it a denial of the core of Christian faith to say that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ extends to all men?

Yes but not all will come to Him.

 

[By Faith Alone]

And that is why I don't believe in universalism. What was the point of Jesus coming down and going through all that on the cross if there wasn't some sort of eternal punishment?

Makes it a waste of time on His part if that was the case.

Deleted. Misread the post.

 

[By Faith Alone]

Good to hear your voice again By Faith Alone & brother Rick Otto...btw never got my paygrade incease yet.

You could be correct brother BFA...so let's eyeball Gen.2:7 again? God's Spiri animates the soul, though in a higher sense than is the case with the soul of beasts, ie, the soul is that portion of the spirit which is breathed into man.

Jn.3:16 needs to be construed with passages like Rev.20:10 for openers.

Don't give it too much thought as only an opinion from the bottom of the pecking order.

Good to "hear" from you too Bro.

The BLOOD is the life of the flesh of both man and animal.
Along with the breath given man:
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

We MUST be careful in devaluing the resurrection.


In Revelation it is the UNholy trinity suffering. The second resurrection mentioned in Revelation are the ones that took the mark of the beast are resurrected for judgment at the GWTJ and suffered the SECOND death in that very same lake.

 

[By Faith Alone]

What was the point of Jesus coming down and going through all that on the cross... if... there wasn't some sort of eternal punishment? Makes it a waste of time on His part if that was the case.

"IF" is speculative at best and gives rise to assumptions. I would hope no one swims in those waters.

"IF...God does not judge America then He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gamorrah."

God doe NOT have to do a thing we judge that he ought to do. We are bound by His WORD and NOT His ways.

 

[AmericanChristian91]

And that is why I don't believe in universalism. What was the point of Jesus coming down and going through all that on the cross if there wasn't some sort of eternal punishment?

If universal reconciliation was true, then it would still be true that Jesus came down to save us from punishment, to bring Mankind to Heaven. It's not like UR is going to get rid of God's Justice/Punishment, it just believes a human being is not going to get tortured/punished for all time and will eventually choose Christ, if not in this life, then the next.

I find it odd, that you think it is very important for some humans beings to get tortured for ever.....and ever........when it comes to the importance of Jesus act. I think your putting to much emphasize on punishment instead of the importance of people being saved through Jesus Christ.

 

[By Faith Alone]

If universal reconciliation was true, then it would still be true that Jesus came down to save us from punishment, to bring Mankind to Heaven. It's not like UR is going to get rid of God's Justice/Punishment, it just believes a human being is not going to get tortured/punished for all time and will eventually choose Christ, if not in this life, then the next.

I find it odd, that you think it is very important for some humans beings to get tortured for ever.....and ever........when it comes to the importance of Jesus act. I think your putting to much emphasize on punishment instead of the importance of people being saved through Jesus Christ.

Making God a monster lacks TRUTH, if that is what we are to convey to the lost and dying world with the unBiblical hell. Hell is not even a translation:

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Eternal TORTURE is FAR worse than that.