Is NOSAS compatible with Amil?

[FredVB]

Both OSAS and NOSAS can't be true. Only one of them can be true. Whichone does more damage in the end if it is is not true though assumed true? Suppose NOSAS is not true though assumed true by many. In the end what harm is done? Not one single person loses their salvation, regardless. Right?

OTOH, suppose OSAS is not true though assumed true by many. In the end what harm is done? Not one single person loses their salvation, regardless. Right? Wrong! Clearly, more harm is done in the end if OSAS is not true than if NOSAS is not true. That's a no-brainer.

That's not really right either. Jesus did say the way is narrow, many yet perish, Jesus still says he doesn't lose one. So the real question might be, in what way do we have salvation? Without that way, we might lose salvation, which we never had. So salvation that God who knows everything gives to anyone must really save them in the end, because God is not fooled. So consider what Jesus said to do, to have salvation. It cannot be without Jesus. If you never repent, how do you have salvation? And why are those having salvation told that they are sealed, with the Spirit?

 

[Zao is life]

That's not really right either. Jesus did say the way is narrow, many yet perish, Jesus still says he doesn't lose one. So the real question might be, in what way do we have salvation? Without that way, we might lose salvation, which we never had. So salvation that God who knows everything gives to anyone must really save them in the end, because God is not fooled. So consider what Jesus said to do, to have salvation. It cannot be without Jesus. If you never repent, how do you have salvation? And why are those having salvation told that they are sealed, with the Spirit?

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth." (Psalm 33:6).

"The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:2 & 4).

-- He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light,

whom no human has ever seen

or is able to see.

To him be honor and eternal power! Amen. --- 1 Timothy 6:15-16, NETfree version.

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." (John 15:6-7).

The Word in whom is life (John 1:2 & 4) says,

".. in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die" (Genesis 2:17).

Adam did not abide in the Word in whom is life when he believed the word that said instead,

"You shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4) - which implied that Adam's eternal life | immortality was in himself - and he began to die.

1 Peter 2
20 For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus, and are again entangled, they have been overcome by these, their last things are worse than the first.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have fully known the way of righteousness, than fully knowing it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But the word of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog turning to his own vomit; and, The washed sow to wallowing in the mire.

Hebrews 3
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance? seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Jesus has provided us with the way back to God. He is the Word of God in Whom is life, who alone possesses eternal life in Himself. Our eternal life is in Him.

If anyone turns aside, it's his own doing and choice, not God's. God's salvation is in Christ alone. We are safe in Him, but if Adam died, the one who aspostatizes will die too.

No one can fall away from faith in someone he never ever believed in.

Jesus is predestined to be the Savior of all - and God did not decide before all time to saw Adam in two so that some will be given faith, and others not - but those who have repented and believed still have the same choice that Adam had in the day he was created.

 

[FredVB]

That's not really right either. Jesus did say the way is narrow, many yet perish, Jesus still says he doesn't lose one. So the real question might be, in what way do we have salvation? Without that way, we might lose salvation, which we never had. So salvation that God who knows everything gives to anyone must really save them in the end, because God is not fooled. So consider what Jesus said to do, to have salvation. It cannot be without Jesus. If you never repent, how do you have salvation? And why are those having salvation told that they are sealed, with the Spirit?

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth." (Psalm 33:6).

"The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:2 & 4).

-- He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light,

whom no human has ever seen

or is able to see.

To him be honor and eternal power! Amen. --- 1 Timothy 6:15-16, NETfree version.

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." (John 15:6-7).

The Word in whom is life (John 1:2 & 4) says,

".. in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die" (Genesis 2:17).

Adam did not abide in the Word in whom is life when he believed the word that said instead,

"You shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4) - which implied that Adam's eternal life | immortality was in himself - and he began to die.

1 Peter 2
20 For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus, and are again entangled, they have been overcome by these, their last things are worse than the first.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have fully known the way of righteousness, than fully knowing it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But the word of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog turning to his own vomit; and, The washed sow to wallowing in the mire.

Hebrews 3
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance? seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Jesus has provided us with the way back to God. He is the Word of God in Whom is life, who alone possesses eternal life in Himself. Our eternal life is in Him.

If anyone turns aside, it's his own doing and choice, not God's. God's salvation is in Christ alone. We are safe in Him, but if Adam died, the one who aspostatizes will die too.

No one can fall away from faith in someone he never ever believed in.

Jesus is predestined to be the Savior of all - and God did not decide before all time to saw Adam in two so that some will be given faith, and others not - but those who have repented and believed still have the same choice that Adam had in the day he was created.

So, you are agreeing with me? I am not contrary to the Bible passages anyway. People do turn from Christ. They are there making themselves known. Of course I see that. But did they have everlasting life? That is what there is with salvation, through Christ. No, they did not. Those who do have it came to repentant faith, that is not just believing, which is all that many are doing with being Christian. But there is faith with repentance that Christ told us to come to, with following him. Those who do are sealed with the Spirit of God, just as the Bible shows. They will remain in Christ. The repentant believers who are in Christ do not turn from their faith. That would be crazy!

 

[Zao is life]

So, you are agreeing with me? I am not contrary to the Bible passages anyway. People do turn from Christ. They are there making themselves known. Of course I see that. But did they have everlasting life? That is what there is with salvation, through Christ. No, they did not. Those who do have it came to repentant faith, that is not just believing, which is all that many are doing with being Christian. But there is faith with repentance that Christ told us to come to, with following him. Those who do are sealed with the Spirit of God, just as the Bible shows. They will remain in Christ. The repentant believers who are in Christ do not turn from their faith. That would be crazy!

Do you believe that there is everlasting life in Christ? If so, then those who have believed in Him and yet turn away are practising the same choice Adam practised in the Garden of Eden.

If what you say is true then God never truly breathed the Spirit of life into Adam and he was never truly alive in Christ.

 

[FredVB]

Do you believe that there is everlasting life in Christ? If so, then those who have believed in Him and yet turn away are practising the same choice Adam practised in the Garden of Eden.

If what you say is true then God never truly breathed the Spirit of life into Adam and he was never truly alive in Christ.

Yes, there is everlasting life we would have in Christ with salvation in him, that is, salvation which we would have with repentant faith in him. We would not have that salvation in him without the everlasting life we were told about.

1 John 5:13, These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life and believe in the name of the Son of God.

Yes, it is only in Christ, but if we are in Christ, we want to seek to do what God's commandments show. If we do not repent to live to God's will, how are we certainly come to salvation in Christ? I don't think that works. With it one has God's Spirit working in them and they do not turn away from Christ then.

I can't speak to what happened with Adam after he fell, regarding any repentance and restoration to God, which I have heard said but do not see scripture passages showing anything about that. Not that there weren't passages twisted for saying something for it. But the relevance of Adam being brought up, in this discussion, is if it were the case that Adam had the choice with being in the state that believers are. I do not believe that he was in the same state, nor do I believe that believers do not have choices. Choosing is what we are told to do, throughout all the Bible. And believers do choose to sin, at some times in the Christian life. But real believers have repentance, and would soon show repentance when conviction comes, which it will quickly. If Adam had this repentant faith we could have in Christ he would have the same. But he had not fallen while having repentant faith. It would not have been the same situation. He had real choice, while in the position from the first of being in the will of God perfectly, otherwise any choice is in the position of already being a fallen being, even if in Christ with the repentant faith having salvation with everlasting life in him. We will still die physically, the everlasting life we have is continuing, being in Christ. Adam was not exempted from that physical death after fall to sin, and we would not be either, while secure in Christ. Some may choose to turn from Christ with their choice, as you say, but they did not really have repentance, did they? How would one turn from Christ having repentance??

 

[Zao is life]

Yes, there is everlasting life we would have in Christ with salvation in him, that is, salvation which we would have with repentant faith in him. We would not have that salvation in him without the everlasting life we were told about.

1 John 5:13, These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life and believe in the name of the Son of God.

Yes, it is only in Christ, but if we are in Christ, we want to seek to do what God's commandments show. If we do not repent to live to God's will, how are we certainly come to salvation in Christ? I don't think that works. With it one has God's Spirit working in them and they do not turn away from Christ then.

I can't speak to what happened with Adam after he fell, regarding any repentance and restoration to God, which I have heard said but do not see scripture passages showing anything about that. Not that there weren't passages twisted for saying something for it. But the relevance of Adam being brought up, in this discussion, is if it were the case that Adam had the choice with being in the state that believers are. I do not believe that he was in the same state, nor do I believe that believers do not have choices. Choosing is what we are told to do, throughout all the Bible. And believers do choose to sin, at some times in the Christian life. But real believers have repentance, and would soon show repentance when conviction comes, which it will quickly. If Adam had this repentant faith we could have in Christ he would have the same. But he had not fallen while having repentant faith. It would not have been the same situation. He had real choice, while in the position from the first of being in the will of God perfectly, otherwise any choice is in the position of already being a fallen being, even if in Christ with the repentant faith having salvation with everlasting life in him. We will still die physically, the everlasting life we have is continuing, being in Christ. Adam was not exempted from that physical death after fall to sin, and we would not be either, while secure in Christ. Some may choose to turn from Christ with their choice, as you say, but they did not really have repentance, did they? How would one turn from Christ having repentance??

How can you say that someone who turned from Christ had never repented from sin and believed, and turned to Christ?

You seem to think you know the human heart and its condition better than God, who inspired Solomon to say,

Before destruction the heart of a person is proud, but humility comes before honor. Proverbs 18:12

And who inspired Jeremiah to say,

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9

You pronounce judgment upon those who draw away as "those who were never saved" with the confidence of one who knows the heart of each man better than God, or at least as well as God. Are you are wiser than Solomon? Or Jesus? Do you know the heart of man as much as God so that you can say someone is saved or not? Or truly believes in Jesus or not?

You claim to know the heart of man as well as God so as to know the condition of the person who draws away.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (o. pneuma)
5 And have tasted the good word (o. rhema) of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6.
​

Adan did not abide in the Word when he believed the lie.

"Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken to you.
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:4-6.

Are you telling the apostle who wrote the above, and Jesus who said the above to change the wording because "no one who was enlightened and fell away was saved in the first place"? What did they fall away from? Do you truly expect anyone to believe you when you make a claim that implies that you know the human heart better than God, or at least as well as God, so that you "know the reason" why someone who was once alive in Christ might become twice dead?​

 

[FredVB]

How can you say that someone who turned from Christ had never repented from sin and believed, and turned to Christ?

You seem to think you know the human heart and its condition better than God, who inspired Solomon to say,

Before destruction the heart of a person is proud, but humility comes before honor. Proverbs 18:12

And who inspired Jeremiah to say,

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9

You pronounce judgment upon those who draw away as "those who were never saved" with the confidence of one who knows the heart of each man better than God, or at least as well as God. Are you are wiser than Solomon? Or Jesus? Do you know the heart of man as much as God so that you can say someone is saved or not? Or truly believes in Jesus or not?

You claim to know the heart of man as well as God so as to know the condition of the person who draws away.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (o. pneuma)
5 And have tasted the good word (o. rhema) of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6.
​

Adan did not abide in the Word when he believed the lie.

"Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken to you.
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:4-6.

Are you telling the apostle who wrote the above, and Jesus who said the above to change the wording because "no one who was enlightened and fell away was saved in the first place"? What did they fall away from? Do you truly expect anyone to believe you when you make a claim that implies that you know the human heart better than God, or at least as well as God, so that you "know the reason" why someone who was once alive in Christ might become twice dead?​

If we are going to be personal in remarks, you don't seem to go by the Bible as much. That's as far as I want to go, but I get remarks all the time. I did not name any individuals, I have scripture passages that with logic show that God knows and with giving salvation to ones, that we can know from many passages came with repentant faith to Christ, and giving them everlasting life, they are sealed. And with no scriptures to counter it you claim I judge others' hearts. You have no one that you can say shows it otherwise. No one can say sincerely, 'I repented and came to Jesus putting my faith in him, but since [insert whatever] I turned from that and don't want anything of that'. Just because some say they are Christian does not make it so. You should already know that yourself. Well real believers should. Scriptures show it is determined that those who left from among us were never of us. But you would say God gave them everlasting life, so only you say God takes it away, as if God made a mistake. But I don't say anywhere that God made any mistake. How God had things for us to start with was the right way for us. Since then only we mess things up.

 

[Zao is life]

If we are going to be personal in remarks, you don't seem to go by the Bible as much. That's as far as I want to go, but I get remarks all the time. I did not name any individuals, I have scripture passages that with logic show that God knows and with giving salvation to ones, that we can know from many passages came with repentant faith to Christ, and giving them everlasting life, they are sealed. And with no scriptures to counter it you claim I judge others' hearts. You have no one that you can say shows it otherwise. No one can say sincerely, 'I repented and came to Jesus putting my faith in him, but since [insert whatever] I turned from that and don't want anything of that'. Just because some say they are Christian does not make it so. You should already know that yourself. Well real believers should. Scriptures show it is determined that those who left from among us were never of us. But you would say God gave them everlasting life, so only you say God takes it away, as if God made a mistake. But I don't say anywhere that God made any mistake. How God had things for us to start with was the right way for us. Since then only we mess things up.

-- He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen. --- 1 Timothy 6:15-16, NETfree version.

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

"The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:2 & 4).

Adam did not abide in the Word in Whom is life (John 1:2 & 4), which says: ".. in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die" (Genesis 2:17).

When Adam believed the word that said instead, "You shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4) - which implies that Adam's everlasting life | immortality was in himself rather than in God his Creator, he began to die.

The everlasting life we receive is not in ourselves. It is in Christ. God does not take it away once we have been joined to Christ, in Whom alone is everlasting life. Like Adam, they turn away through their own choice, believing that their immortality | everlasting life is in themselves, rather than in Christ.

But it's a lie. The everlasting life God gave you is not in you, it's in Christ.

You believe the lie that says once God has given us everlasting life in Christ, we will never lose "our" everlasting life - as though everlasting life is in ourselves, rather than in Christ, who alone is immortal, who alone has everlasting life in Himself.

Therefore you do not believe His Word that says,

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." (John 15:6-7).

And so you make yourself judge of the heart condition of men who fell away, asserting that the person who does not abide in Him, never had everlasting life in Him in the first place, as though Adam never had everlasting life in the Word before he believed the lie and began to die.

It's an insult to God to say those who fall away never had everlasting life in Christ in the first place, because eternal life is in Christ, not in us.

Satan is very deceptive. He has many saints believing the same lie that once God has given us everlasting life in Christ, we can never lose it. They believe the same lie Adam believed.

@FredVB Only Christ was predestined before the creation of Adam to be the Savior of all mankind. We are all sons of Adam - the creature.

God our Creator did not saw Adam in two before he was created and decide which part to save in Christ and which part not to. He wants all men to be saved - though not all men will, because the will of individuals is not taken away, but God Himself is not willing that any should perish, but all should be saved, which is why Christ died.

@FredVB Your words betray the fact that you conflate the foreknowledge of God with the will of God.

So my prayer for you in the name of Jesus Christ is that if you ever experience serious doubt in your faith and find yourself beginning to fall away, that you will remember that Peter told Christ He would never deny His name only a few hours before the rooster crowed, and that you will remember to immediately call on Jesus to save you like Peter did when he began to sink.

Because you believe that God does not allow Satan to sow doubt in the hearts and minds in the sons of Adam to try them the way He allowed Satan to sow doubt into the hearts and minds of Adam and Eve, and into the mind of John the Baptist when he was not being delivered from his prison shackles, and sent his disciples to ask Jesus if He was the one to come, or should they look for another.

And you believe that if someone falls away he was never saved in the first place.

So you will condemn yourself as someone who never believed in the first place if it ever happens to you, and just as harshly as you judge the hearts and minds of those who fall away, even if they "backslid", so you will judge and condemn yourself if it happens to you, because you believe a lie.

 

[DavidPT]

Clearly, NOSAS is Biblical. Clearly, having part in the first resurrection contradicts NOSAS unless having part in the first resurrection means to put on bodily immortality.

Except some views, mainly Amil in this case, argue that to have part in the first resurrection does not mean to put on bodily immortality. It is instead meaning in a spiritual sense and is applicable to the here and now. That's fine as long as NOSAS is not Biblical. Except NOSAS is Biblical, which would then mean some who have part in the first resurrection can lose part in it.

If having part in the first resurrection is a bodily resurrection like Premils tend to believe, obviously no one can lose part in at after already having part in it since they would be in immortal bodies at this point. Therefore, NOSAS does not contradict this since one's salvation is already determined before the bodily resurrection occurs.

The only way Amil can be Biblical is if NOSAS is not Biblical. Because, it is ludicrous that anyone that is blessed and holy, thus have part in the first resurrection, thus reign with Christ a thousand years, that they can somehow lose part in the first resurrection, thus no longer be blessed and holy, thus no longer be reigning with Christ a thousand years.

Clearly, per what happens after the thousand years, which pertains to events that happen to those that have been reigning with Christ a thousand years, none of them lose their salvation, none of them lose part in the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Obviously, the camp of saints is meaning the ones that have part in the first resurrection, the same ones that have been reigning with Christ a thousand years. And not one single one of them does the following happen to---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Which further proves that no one once they are blessed and holy, thus have part in the first resurrection, thus reign with Christ a thousand years, can then somehow lose part in the first resurrection.

If that was true it would mean some of the camp of the saints during satan's little season, that this too would be their fate---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Clearly, that does not happen to anyone in the camp of the saints, though. Obviously, the camp of the saints have to be meaning the same ones that have been reigning with Christ a thousand years like I already said earlier. After all, seriously, who else could they possibly be meaning if not these?

Does the text ever indicate that anyone in the camp of the saints is also also devoured by fire? No. But why not if one can lose part in the first resurrection as some Amils teach, meaning Amils who agree that NOSAS is Biblical? Therefore, not meaning Amils that disagree NOSAS is Biblical. Except their position is not valid to begin with since their position is that only OSAS is Biblical, and that NOSAS isn't. It's like I have been saying all along, one can't logically be Amil then agree that NOSAS is Biblical since this contradicts Revelation 20:7-9 which proves that once one has part in the first resurrection, that they cannot then lose part in the first resurrection.

 

[claninja]

Clearly, NOSAS is Biblical. Clearly, having part in the first resurrection contradicts NOSAS unless having part in the first resurrection means to put on bodily immortality.

Except some views, mainly Amil in this case, argue that to have part in the first resurrection does not mean to put on bodily immortality. It is instead meaning in a spiritual sense and is applicable to the here and now. That's fine as long as NOSAS is not Biblical. Except NOSAS is Biblical, which would then mean some who have part in the first resurrection can lose part in it.

If having part in the first resurrection is a bodily resurrection like Premils tend to believe, obviously no one can lose part in at after already having part in it since they would be in immortal bodies at this point. Therefore, NOSAS does not contradict this since one's salvation is already determined before the bodily resurrection occurs.

The only way Amil can be Biblical is if NOSAS is not Biblical. Because, it is ludicrous that anyone that is blessed and holy, thus have part in the first resurrection, thus reign with Christ a thousand years, that they can somehow lose part in the first resurrection, thus no longer be blessed and holy, thus no longer be reigning with Christ a thousand years.

Clearly, per what happens after the thousand years, which pertains to events that happen to those that have been reigning with Christ a thousand years, none of them lose their salvation, none of them lose part in the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Obviously, the camp of saints is meaning the ones that have part in the first resurrection, the same ones that have been reigning with Christ a thousand years. And not one single one of them does the following happen to---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Which further proves that no one once they are blessed and holy, thus have part in the first resurrection, thus reign with Christ a thousand years, can then somehow lose part in the first resurrection.

If that was true it would mean some of the camp of the saints during satan's little season, that this too would be their fate---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Clearly, that does not happen to anyone in the camp of the saints, though. Obviously, the camp of the saints have to be meaning the same ones that have been reigning with Christ a thousand years like I already said earlier. After all, seriously, who else could they possibly be meaning if not these?

Does the text ever indicate that anyone in the camp of the saints is also also devoured by fire? No. But why not if one can lose part in the first resurrection as some Amils teach, meaning Amils who agree that NOSAS is Biblical? Therefore, not meaning Amils that disagree NOSAS is Biblical. Except their position is not valid to begin with since their position is that only OSAS is Biblical, and that NOSAS isn't. It's like I have been saying all along, one can't logically be Amil then agree that NOSAS is Biblical since this contradicts Revelation 20:7-9 which proves that once one has part in the first resurrection, that they cannot then lose part in the first resurrection.

if someone partook in the first resurrection, who is Christ, was born again, ovecame til the end (physically died), and the “soul” now lives and reigns in heaven with Christ for a symbolic 1,000 years, what does NOSAS or OSAS have to do with that to disprove amil?

 

[DavidPT]

if someone partook in the first resurrection, who is Christ, was born again, ovecame til the end (physically died), and the “soul” now lives and reigns in heaven with Christ for a symbolic 1,000 years, what does NOSAS or OSAS have to do with that to disprove amil?

It has everything to do with it if NOSAS is Biblical. No matter how you look at it, except for maybe how you you look at it, which still makes no sense to me, meaning how you look at it, but that aside, Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning after the thousand years have expired. Which then obviously has to mean the camp of saints being attacked, regardless what sense that is meaning in, the camp of the saints have to be meaning those that have part in the first resurrection and have been reigning with Christ a thousand years. And that when fire comes down from heaven, not one single person in the camp of the saints is devoured by this. Except an Amil NOSAS position clearly contradicts this. Which leaves 2 options. Either denounce Amil, yet still embrace NOSAS. Or denounce NOSAS, yet still embrace Amil. There are no other logical options since Amil is not compatible with NOSAS since it contradicts Revelation 20:4-9.

And if NOSAS is Biblical, there you go then, this alone debunks Amil since NOSAS can't work with Amil according to Revelation 20:4-9 and if we factor all that in, what I argued above in regards to that..

 

[claninja]

It has everything to do with it if NOSAS is Biblical. No matter how you look at it, except for maybe how you you look at it, which still makes no sense to me, meaning how you look at it, but that aside, Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning after the thousand years have expired. Which then obviously has to mean the camp of saints being attacked, regardless what sense that is meaning in, the camp of the saints have to be meaning those that have part in the first resurrection and have been reigning with Christ a thousand years. And that when fire comes down from heaven, not one single person in the camp of the saints is devoured by this. Except an Amil NOSAS position clearly contradicts this. Which leaves 2 options. Either denounce Amil, yet still embrace NOSAS. Or denounce NOSAS, yet still embrace Amil. There are no other logical options since Amil is not compatible with NOSAS since it contradicts Revelation 20:4-9.

And if NOSAS is Biblical, there you go then, this alone debunks Amil since NOSAS can't work with Amil according to Revelation 20:4-9 and if we factor all that in, what I argued above in regards to that..

It’s my understanding that the arguments of NOSAS vs OSAS are in regards to the believer “before” physical death.

How is NOSAS applicable to the souls of dead believers now living and reigning with Christ In heaven? Can the souls of dead believers in heaven fall away to not be saved?

 

[DavidPT]

How is NOSAS applicable to the souls of dead believers now living and reigning with Christ In heaven? Can the souls of dead believers in heaven fall away to not be saved?

None of that is relevant since it would already be decided upon death whether they remained saved or not. And if they did remain saved up until death, obviously they can't fall away after death anymore than someone who has put on bodily immortality per the first resurrection(thus Premil) can lose their bodily immortality. One can only fall away in this age and prior to death. That is what falling away, thus NOSAS, is relevant to.

Per my POV since I 100% believe NOSAS is Biblical and that not one single person is ever going to be able to change my mind about that, I therefore can never be an Amil since NOSAS would be contradicting Revelation 20:4-9. Therefore, this alone tells me that Amil can't be Biblical because if it it was, NOSAS, a 100% valid Biblical position, would be able to work with it. Yet, it can't unless someone who holds the position of both Amil and NOSAS can convincingly prove that any of the camp of the saints are devoured by fire after the thousand years, which then would obviously prove one can lose part in the first resurrection after all.

 

[claninja]

None of that is relevant since it would already be decided upon death whether they remained saved or not. And if they did remain saved up until death, obviously they can't fall away after death anymore than someone who has put on bodily immortality per the first resurrection(thus Premil) can lose their bodily immortality. One can only fall away in this age and prior to death. That is what falling away, thus NOSAS, is relevant to.

Exactly, that’s my point. NOSAS is not really relevant to vs 4-6 and Amils who believe those verses are about the souls of believers living and reigning in heaven with Christ after physical death.

NOSAS vs OSAS would be more relevant to vs 7-9, and those living on earth, prior to physical death.

Edit: Its not that I’m defending Amil, but your argument just really doesn’t make sense.

 

[DavidPT]

Exactly, that’s my point. NOSAS is not really relevant to vs 4-6 and Amils who believe those verses are about the souls of believers living and reigning in heaven with Christ after physical death.

Obviously, this would be true per that scenerio. But we still have to factor in verses 7-9 in regards to those that are still physically alive at the end of the thousand years. Meaning in regards to those who were reigning with Christ a thousand years, yet are still physically alive when satan's little season begins. At this point there are 2 groups in view---group 1---the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog---group 2---the camp of the saints, and the beloved city.

Revelation 20:9 And they(group 1) went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city(group 2) : and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them(group 1 not group 2 nor anyone from group 2).

Where does any of this involve anyone from group 2 losing part in the first resurrection, thus NOSAS? Those from group 1, unless I'm missing something here, never have part in the first resurrection during the thousand years. Because if they did, they would be part of group 2 after the thousand years, not part of group 1 instead. How can anyone that is part of group 1 after the thousand years, be initially part of group 2 during the thousand years? Could the great falling away that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 makes mention of possibly explain it?

Actually, even though I'm not an Amil, I proposed that as a possible scenario to a particular Amil on this board in the past, who holds both an Amil and NOSAS position. Instead of him seeing that as a possibility, he instead indicated that what I was proposing, it literally gave him a headache and that it was just too convoluted to even entertain. Which means since this is apparently not worthy of entertaining, according to that Amil anyway, we are back to what I'm arguing in these last cpl of posts. That if NOSAS is compatible with Amil, one then needs to prove that anyone of the camp of the saints still alive at the end of the thousand years, that some of them are also devoured by fire out of heaven since the falling away per 2 Thessalonians 2:3 apparently can't explain any of these in group 1 after the thousand years.

 

[claninja]

Obviously, this would be true per that scenerio. But we still have to factor in verses 7-9 in regards to those that are still physically alive at the end of the thousand years. Meaning in regards to those who were reigning with Christ a thousand years, yet are still physically alive when satan's little season begins. At this point there are 2 groups in view---group 1---the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog---group 2---the camp of the saints, and the beloved city.

Revelation 20:9 And they(group 1) went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city(group 2) : and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them(group 1 not group 2 nor anyone from group 2).

Where does any of this involve anyone from group 2 losing part in the first resurrection, thus NOSAS? Those from group 1, unless I'm missing something here, never have part in the first resurrection during the thousand years. Because if they did, they would be part of group 2 after the thousand years, not part of group 1 instead. How can anyone that is part of group 1 after the thousand years, be initially part of group 2 during the thousand years? Could the great falling away that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 makes mention of possibly explain it?

Actually, even though I'm not an Amil, I proposed that as a possible scenario to a particular Amil on this board in the past, who holds both an Amil and NOSAS position. Instead of him seeing that as a possibility, he instead indicated that what I was proposing, it literally gave him a headache and that it was just too convoluted to even entertain. Which means since this is apparently not worthy of entertaining, according to that Amil anyway, we are back to what I'm arguing in these last cpl of posts. That if NOSAS is compatible with Amil, one then needs to prove that anyone of the camp of the saints still alive at the end of the thousand years, that some of them are also devoured by fire out of heaven since the falling away per 2 Thessalonians 2:3 apparently can't explain any of these in group 1 after the thousand years.

we already agreed that if Amil sees vs 4-6 as the souls of dead believers in heaven, then NOSAS vs OSAS is irrelevant.

As to vs 7-9, I’m still not seeing how NOSAS is a relevant argument against Amil? Per Amil, if Vs 4-6 involves those who died and went to HEAVEN, then the camp of saints in vs 7-9, on EARTH, would be a different group - those believers who have partaken on the first resurrection (being born again), but have not physically died yet prior to the final resurrection, and are living on earth post the millennium (Satan’s little season)

NOSAS is true from the human perspective, as we don’t always know who will overcome to the end. Antichrists are manifested when they fall away per 1 John 2:18-20. So from a human perspective, NOSAS is revealed or manifested by nations being deceived by Satan and then warring against the saints.

Additionally, NOSAS is only true from Gods perspective IF He is not all knowing.

BUT IF God is all knowing, then OSAS is true, as He already knows who will overcome til the end. THUS there is a prophesied camp of saints (OSAS) overcoming to the end, who are surrounded by the revealed deceived which may include NOSAS

My point is the that NOSAS and OSAS are both true depending on man or Gods perspective, and so from an Amil or Postmil view, the NOSAS vs OSAS is irrelevant to disproving a millennial view

 

[FredVB]

-- He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen. --- 1 Timothy 6:15-16, NETfree version.

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

"The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:2 & 4).

Adam did not abide in the Word in Whom is life (John 1:2 & 4), which says: ".. in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die" (Genesis 2:17).

When Adam believed the word that said instead, "You shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4) - which implies that Adam's everlasting life | immortality was in himself rather than in God his Creator, he began to die.

The everlasting life we receive is not in ourselves. It is in Christ. God does not take it away once we have been joined to Christ, in Whom alone is everlasting life. Like Adam, they turn away through their own choice, believing that their immortality | everlasting life is in themselves, rather than in Christ.

But it's a lie. The everlasting life God gave you is not in you, it's in Christ.

You believe the lie that says once God has given us everlasting life in Christ, we will never lose "our" everlasting life - as though everlasting life is in ourselves, rather than in Christ, who alone is immortal, who alone has everlasting life in Himself.

Therefore you do not believe His Word that says,

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." (John 15:6-7).

And so you make yourself judge of the heart condition of men who fell away, asserting that the person who does not abide in Him, never had everlasting life in Him in the first place, as though Adam never had everlasting life in the Word before he believed the lie and began to die.

It's an insult to God to say those who fall away never had everlasting life in Christ in the first place, because eternal life is in Christ, not in us.

Satan is very deceptive. He has many saints believing the same lie that once God has given us everlasting life in Christ, we can never lose it. They believe the same lie Adam believed.

@FredVB Only Christ was predestined before the creation of Adam to be the Savior of all mankind. We are all sons of Adam - the creature.

God our Creator did not saw Adam in two before he was created and decide which part to save in Christ and which part not to. He wants all men to be saved - though not all men will, because the will of individuals is not taken away, but God Himself is not willing that any should perish, but all should be saved, which is why Christ died.

@FredVB Your words betray the fact that you conflate the foreknowledge of God with the will of God.

So my prayer for you in the name of Jesus Christ is that if you ever experience serious doubt in your faith and find yourself beginning to fall away, that you will remember that Peter told Christ He would never deny His name only a few hours before the rooster crowed, and that you will remember to immediately call on Jesus to save you like Peter did when he began to sink.

Because you believe that God does not allow Satan to sow doubt in the hearts and minds in the sons of Adam to try them the way He allowed Satan to sow doubt into the hearts and minds of Adam and Eve, and into the mind of John the Baptist when he was not being delivered from his prison shackles, and sent his disciples to ask Jesus if He was the one to come, or should they look for another.

And you believe that if someone falls away he was never saved in the first place.

So you will condemn yourself as someone who never believed in the first place if it ever happens to you, and just as harshly as you judge the hearts and minds of those who fall away, even if they "backslid", so you will judge and condemn yourself if it happens to you, because you believe a lie.

The problem with that then is that everlasting life is then not a gift, which we are told it is, if only it is in Christ and not in us.

1 John 5:11 tells us, God has given to us eternal life, this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has this life. We are also told the Spirit of God secures us who are believers. Sanctification is happening in believers, it begins at the start, and growth toward further and further godliness should be happening, with distinction that should be seen in believers from others. It can be hard to be seen when some among them saying they are Christian are not actually real believers. That isn't insulting, it is what we are warned of, in the Bible. They go out from us, but they were not of us.

It starts with real faith, that is with repentance to life with sin we had and trusting Christ for this life and the restoration to God who gives us that, with the Spirit of God securing us.

God foreknew us, Romans 8 is a good chapter to see for our security from God.

Backsliding is not the same as falling away from Christ. I see there is ease in mixing up terms to hold different interpretations and beliefs. We are not talking about backsliding.

Immortality is something else. Believers are given everlasting life, they then have it, being secure in Christ certainly, but physical death will still come, while they go on living in Christ still. Immortality would be continually living without dying even physically. We do not have that in our world, which is fallen, with death now everywhere, and we live in a culture of death.

I have had such serious doubt, long ago, where another might think it would be falling away, in circumstances I would not share, to not discourage any that would be weak in faith. But through that doubt I did not ever wanted to turn from God. I was not going to turn to sins against God then. I wanted God who is there to show me truth I needed to know. I was weaker through that, but came back to faith that is not dependent still on circumstances. When things in life got worse again later, in some ways maybe more, I did not fall to any doubt anymore. It doesn't depend on what happens in my life, the truth is still there. Yet changes really happened in my life that were never expected before, and I still don't know such changes happen to other believers.

 

[Zao is life]

1 John 5:11 tells us, God has given to us eternal life, this life is in his Son.

In whom does 1 John 5:11 tell us is eternal life?

"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

Eternal life is given to Jesus alone, and is in Christ alone. It is not given to the creature apart from Christ:

1 John 5:11-12
"And this is the record, that God has given to us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

" If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:6

" For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come, and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

Eternal life is in Christ alone, who alone is immortal, who alone has eternal life in Himself. Eternal life is not given to anyone who does not remain in the Vine, i.e in Christ.

"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

Eternal life is not given to the creature apart from Christ, but in Christ. The very scriptures themselves, which you deny by changing the meaning of them, teach us all that it is indeed possible to have been dwelling in the Vine and to have chosen to leave. It's what Adam did, because he was capable of doing it when he was still living forever, even before he heard and believed the lie that said "..you will not surely die" - which implies that eternal life | immortality that is given to Adam (the creature) is in Adam himself, rather than in the Word of God His Creator.

The sons of Adam are no different. If we abide in the Word of Truth who is Christ we will live. If we believe the lie and turn aside from the Word of Truth we will die.

Eternal life is given to the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve in Christ alone, who alone has eternal life in Himself. It is not given to us in ourselves.​

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Exactly, that’s my point. NOSAS is not really relevant to vs 4-6 and Amils who believe those verses are about the souls of believers living and reigning in heaven with Christ after physical death.

NOSAS vs OSAS would be more relevant to vs 7-9, and those living on earth, prior to physical death.

Edit: Its not that I’m defending Amil, but your argument just really doesn’t make sense.

Now, here's something we can agree on. His argument regarding it being impossible to be both NOSAS and Amil is the most nonsensical argument I've ever seen. I'm talking any argument about anything. And, yet, he goes on and on about it as if his argument is valid which it clearly is not.

As you've indicated, in terms of those who have died and their souls are reigning with Christ in heaven, NOSAS vs OSAS is obviously irrelevant in relation to Amil vs Premil. They're already dead, so they obviously can't lose their salvation. NOSAS vs OSAS only applies to those who are still alive, so it cannot be applied one way or another to the Amil interpretation of Revelation 20:4-6.

Yes, we Amils do include living believers among those who have part in the first resurrection and live and reign with Christ, yet Revelation 20:4-6 is not about people who are alive, but rather those who have died and their souls reign with Christ in heaven from the Amil perspective.

But, even in terms of living believers having part in the first resurrection spiritually and reigning with Christ, I don't see why one can't believe in that and also believe in NOSAS. Why can someone believe that someone can lose their salvation, but not also believe that someone can lose their part in the first resurrection (if that means losing having part spiritually in Christ's resurrection)? What is the difference there? From the Amil perspective, the way that someone becomes saved in the first place is by spiritually having part in His resurrection (the first resurrection - Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20-23). So, from the Amil perspective, saying that someone can lose their salvation and can lose their part in the first resurrection is basically saying the same thing. So, it makes no sense to say that someone can't believe both of those things when those things mean the same thing from the Amil perspective.

That's the problem with David. He's not able to look at things from other perspectives and looks at everything only from his own Premil perspective, so he concludes that certain beliefs aren't possible because of that. But, again, from the Amil perspective, NOSAS is possible and you can easily see that when you actually look at it from the Amil perspective based on how Amil understands things, which David fails to do.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The problem with that then is that everlasting life is then not a gift, which we are told it is, if only it is in Christ and not in us.

1 John 5:11 tells us, God has given to us eternal life, this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has this life. We are also told the Spirit of God secures us who are believers. Sanctification is happening in believers, it begins at the start, and growth toward further and further godliness should be happening, with distinction that should be seen in believers from others. It can be hard to be seen when some among them saying they are Christian are not actually real believers. That isn't insulting, it is what we are warned of, in the Bible. They go out from us, but they were not of us.

It starts with real faith, that is with repentance to life with sin we had and trusting Christ for this life and the restoration to God who gives us that, with the Spirit of God securing us.

God foreknew us, Romans 8 is a good chapter to see for our security from God.

Backsliding is not the same as falling away from Christ. I see there is ease in mixing up terms to hold different interpretations and beliefs. We are not talking about backsliding.

Immortality is something else. Believers are given everlasting life, they then have it, being secure in Christ certainly, but physical death will still come, while they go on living in Christ still. Immortality would be continually living without dying even physically. We do not have that in our world, which is fallen, with death now everywhere, and we live in a culture of death.

I have had such serious doubt, long ago, where another might think it would be falling away, in circumstances I would not share, to not discourage any that would be weak in faith. But through that doubt I did not ever wanted to turn from God. I was not going to turn to sins against God then. I wanted God who is there to show me truth I needed to know. I was weaker through that, but came back to faith that is not dependent still on circumstances. When things in life got worse again later, in some ways maybe more, I did not fall to any doubt anymore. It doesn't depend on what happens in my life, the truth is still there. Yet changes really happened in my life that were never expected before, and I still don't know such changes happen to other believers.

What do you make of a passage like this:

Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.”

Who are the "brothers and sisters" being addressed here? We can see that here:

Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.

I believe Paul wrote Hebrews, so I'll speak from that perspective. Paul was addressing his "holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling and acknowledge Jesus as their "apostle and high priest". If that doesn't describe saved people, I don't know what does.

So, back to Hebrews 3:12-15 then. We see a warning there being given to the "holy brothers and sisters" in Christ that they needed to "see to it" that none of them had "a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God". Again, these are "holy brothers and sisters" in Christ being addressed here. Saved people. And, yet, they are being warned about having a sinful, unbelieving heart and turning away from God. Now, how can you say that a saved person can't fall away when this passage very strongly indicates that it is possible for a saved person to turn away from God?

He also warns these saved people to "encourage one another daily...so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness". So, these are saved believers that are warned about becoming hardened by sin's deceitfulness. If a saved person can't fall away, then what is the point of this warning? Surely, someone who becomes hardened by sin's deceitfulness would not be saved anymore and would be someone who has developed a sinful, unbelieving heart and turned away from the living God. Yet, you say this is not possible. This passage says otherwise.