FredVB
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- Mar 11, 2010
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You said, "You believe the lie that says once God has given us everlasting life in Christ, we will never lose "our" everlasting life - as though everlasting life is in ourselves, rather than in Christ, who alone is immortal, who alone has everlasting life in Himself.
Therefore you do not believe His Word that says,
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." (John 15:6-7).
And so you make yourself judge of the heart condition of men who fell away, asserting that the person who does not abide in Him, never had everlasting life in Him in the first place, as though Adam never had everlasting life in the Word before he believed the lie and began to die.
It's an insult to God to say those who fall away never had everlasting life in Christ in the first place, because eternal life is in Christ, not in us.
Satan is very deceptive. He has many saints believing the same lie that once God has given us everlasting life in Christ, we can never lose it. They believe the same lie Adam believed.
@FredVB Only Christ was predestined before the creation of Adam to be the Savior of all mankind. We are all sons of Adam - the creature.
God our Creator did not saw Adam in two before he was created and decide which part to save in Christ and which part not to. He wants all men to be saved - though not all men will, because the will of individuals is not taken away, but God Himself is not willing that any should perish, but all should be saved, which is why Christ died.
@FredVB Your words betray the fact that you conflate the foreknowledge of God with the will of God.
So my prayer for you in the name of Jesus Christ is that if you ever experience serious doubt in your faith and find yourself beginning to fall away, that you will remember that Peter told Christ He would never deny His name only a few hours before the rooster crowed, and that you will remember to immediately call on Jesus to save you like Peter did when he began to sink.
Because you believe that God does not allow Satan to sow doubt in the hearts and minds in the sons of Adam to try them the way He allowed Satan to sow doubt into the hearts and minds of Adam and Eve, and into the mind of John the Baptist when he was not being delivered from his prison shackles, and sent his disciples to ask Jesus if He was the one to come, or should they look for another.
And you believe that if someone falls away he was never saved in the first place.
So you will condemn yourself as someone who never believed in the first place if it ever happens to you, and just as harshly as you judge the hearts and minds of those who fall away, even if they "backslid", so you will judge and condemn yourself if it happens to you, because you believe a lie."
The problem with that then is that everlasting life is then not a gift, which we are told it is, if only it is in Christ and not in us.
1 John 5:11 tells us, God has given to us eternal life, this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has this life. We are also told the Spirit of God secures us who are believers. Sanctification is happening in believers, it begins at the start, and growth toward further and further godliness should be happening, with distinction that should be seen in believers from others. It can be hard to be seen when some among them saying they are Christian are not actually real believers. That isn't insulting, it is what we are warned of, in the Bible. They go out from us, but they were not of us.
It starts with real faith, that is with repentance to life with sin we had and trusting Christ for this life and the restoration to God who gives us that, with the Spirit of God securing us.
God foreknew us, Romans 8 is a good chapter to see for our security from God.
Backsliding is not the same as falling away from Christ. I see there is ease in mixing up terms to hold different interpretations and beliefs. We are not talking about backsliding.
Immortality is something else. Believers are given everlasting life, they then have it, being secure in Christ certainly, but physical death will still come, while they go on living in Christ still. Immortality would be continually living without dying even physically. We do not have that in our world, which is fallen, with death now everywhere, and we live in a culture of death.
I have had such serious doubt, long ago, where another might think it would be falling away, in circumstances I would not share, to not discourage any that would be weak in faith. But through that doubt I did not ever wanted to turn from God. I was not going to turn to sins against God then. I wanted God who is there to show me truth I needed to know. I was weaker through that, but came back to faith that is not dependent still on circumstances. When things in life got worse again later, in some ways maybe more, I did not fall to any doubt anymore. It doesn't depend on what happens in my life, the truth is still there. Yet changes really happened in my life that were never expected before, and I still don't know such changes happen to other believers.
In whom does 1 John 5:11 tell us is eternal life?
"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26
Eternal life is given to Jesus alone, and is in Christ alone. It is not given to the creature apart from Christ:
1 John 5:11-12
"And this is the record, that God has given to us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."
" If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:6
" For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come, and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6
Eternal life is in Christ alone, who alone is immortal, who alone has eternal life in Himself. Eternal life is not given to anyone who does not remain in the Vine, i.e in Christ.
"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26
Eternal life is not given to the creature apart from Christ, but in Christ. The very scriptures themselves, which you deny by changing the meaning of them, teach us all that it is indeed possible to have been dwelling in the Vine and to have chosen to leave. It's what Adam did, because he was capable of doing it when he was still living forever, even before he heard and believed the lie that said "..you will not surely die" - which implies that eternal life | immortality that is given to Adam (the creature) is in Adam himself, rather than in the Word of God His Creator.
The sons of Adam are no different. If we abide in the Word of Truth who is Christ we will live. If we believe the lie and turn aside from the Word of Truth we will die.
Eternal life is given to the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve in Christ alone, who alone has eternal life in Himself. It is not given to us in ourselves.
Who is talking about any having everlasting life apart from Christ? It was not I. But you keep coming to that. Are you ignoring repentance? No one is having needed faith in Christ and so saved without that. And with being in Christ the everlasting life is the gift to them, certainly it is the gift with Christ, in whom they are then. And being sealed with the Spirit of God is assured with that. It is not about departing from Christ. I am sure that those departing from Christ never repented that they then have the needed faith in Christ, the Bible talks about those ones. See 1 John 2:19, if it is not talking about those, what do you say it is talking about? Those really repentant never have reason to turn from Christ, the repentance was real, for it really being real faith that they have, in Christ, with being sealed that they never leave him.
What do you make of a passage like this:
Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.”
Who are the "brothers and sisters" being addressed here? We can see that here:
Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.
I believe Paul wrote Hebrews, so I'll speak from that perspective. Paul was addressing his "holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling and acknowledge Jesus as their "apostle and high priest". If that doesn't describe saved people, I don't know what does.
So, back to Hebrews 3:12-15 then. We see a warning there being given to the "holy brothers and sisters" in Christ that they needed to "see to it" that none of them had "a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God". Again, these are "holy brothers and sisters" in Christ being addressed here. Saved people. And, yet, they are being warned about having a sinful, unbelieving heart and turning away from God. Now, how can you say that a saved person can't fall away when this passage very strongly indicates that it is possible for a saved person to turn away from God?
He also warns these saved people to "encourage one another daily...so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness". So, these are saved believers that are warned about becoming hardened by sin's deceitfulness. If a saved person can't fall away, then what is the point of this warning? Surely, someone who becomes hardened by sin's deceitfulness would not be saved anymore and would be someone who has developed a sinful, unbelieving heart and turned away from the living God. Yet, you say this is not possible. This passage says otherwise.
How do you know you are not hardened? Have you been tested? I am sure already, absolutely, I am not hardened. But a great many are.
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