Is NOSAS compatible with Amil?

[DavidPT]

This argument is wordplay, you and I are limited creatures. Many may conceive of God as a really big man, or really big superhuman. But I know the Creator is not that, the Creator is unlimited being. You being limited cannot outsmart the unlimited being, and we being limited cannot conceive of the knowledge of unlimited being. You do not know what the Creator doesn't know. When highest number is said, what defines that? The highest number of items, or particles? The highest conceivable number according to probability? God knows all those, but God is unlimited.

I don't know where you are coming up with this wild theory that I am trying to outsmart God. That is ludicrous. One would have to be the most arrogant person that has ever walked the planet if they somehow think they can outsmart God.

What someone like me, who only possesses finite knowledge, and very limited at that, can do though, is use my God given brain to try and deduce the obvious. It is plainly obvious, that like God, numbers are endless. No one, not even God can count to the highest number and that there then be no numbers higher than that, because all one has to do is add 1 to that number every time, and now that number is no longer the highest number. One could do that for all eternity and never arrive at the highest number, since there is no such number.

If your argument is that God is all knowing, thus there is nothing that He can't know, therefore He knows the highest number that can be counted to, what about when one adds a 1 to that number, thus that number is higher than the previous number? Why didn't God know that number if there is nothing He cannot know?

 

[DavidPT]

NM dup post

 

[FredVB]

I don't know where you are coming up with this wild theory that I am trying to outsmart God. That is ludicrous. One would have to be the most arrogant person that has ever walked the planet if they somehow think they can outsmart God.

What someone like me, who only possesses finite knowledge, and very limited at that, can do though, is use my God given brain to try and deduce the obvious. It is plainly obvious, that like God, numbers are endless. No one, not even God can count to the highest number and that there then be no numbers higher than that, because all one has to do is add 1 to that number every time, and now that number is no longer the highest number. One could do that for all eternity and never arrive at the highest number, since there is no such number.

If your argument is that God is all knowing, thus there is nothing that He can't know, therefore He knows the highest number that can be counted to, what about when one adds a 1 to that number, thus that number is higher than the previous number? Why didn't God know that number if there is nothing He cannot know?

You still do not know what God knows, and seemingly can disregard God's limitless being. Highest number needs to be defined. There is number theory in which all possible numbers go on without end. God certainly knows that, and God and God's limitless knowledge can know all of the unlimited possible numbers. There are highest numbers, depending on what is actually numbered, and some thing or the other has the highest of what is numbered. I don't think we know what that is, but God does know, I would presume it involves probability. We just do not rightly limit God, the unlimited being, necessary being. We are limited as we cannot conceive knowing things like that.

 

[FredVB]

Limits to our salvation is only possibly evident to human perspective. As God really is all knowing, that is, knowing all things that are true, God is never ever wrong about our salvation, and if we are really saved, which is with repentant faith coming to Christ, we are sealed with God's work with us keeping us saved. That work from God is evidence to us, with changes in us, that we are really saved.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I don't know where you are coming up with this wild theory that I am trying to outsmart God. That is ludicrous. One would have to be the most arrogant person that has ever walked the planet if they somehow think they can outsmart God.

What someone like me, who only possesses finite knowledge, and very limited at that, can do though, is use my God given brain to try and deduce the obvious. It is plainly obvious, that like God, numbers are endless. No one, not even God can count to the highest number and that there then be no numbers higher than that, because all one has to do is add 1 to that number every time, and now that number is no longer the highest number. One could do that for all eternity and never arrive at the highest number, since there is no such number.

If your argument is that God is all knowing, thus there is nothing that He can't know, therefore He knows the highest number that can be counted to, what about when one adds a 1 to that number, thus that number is higher than the previous number? Why didn't God know that number if there is nothing He cannot know?

For the record: how long is everlasting?

 

[DavidPT]

For the record: how long is everlasting?

Everlasting is not something that can be measured. It is endless. Numbers are also endless. Not even God can count to the hightest number and there be no number higher than that. Not even God can know the first and the last day of everlasting eternity since there are no such days. In God's case everlasting involves no beginning nor ending. In our case it only involves no ending since we have a beginning.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Everlasting is not something that can be measured. It is endless. Numbers are also endless. Not even God can count to the hightest number and there be no number higher than that. Not even God can know the first and the last day of everlasting eternity since there are no such days. In God's case everlasting involves no beginning nor ending. In our case it only involves no ending since we have a beginning.

Well, contrary to what you believe, the life He gives is everlasting (eternal).

 

[DavidPT]

Well, contrary to what you believe, the life He gives is everlasting (eternal).

All I'm suggesting is, in our case, we can never ever experience everlasting the way God can. We can never ever have no beginning. Only God can have no beginning. If in our case, we can experience everlasting going backwards as well as going forward, rather than forward only, would not that contradict what we are told about the NHNE, that the former won't be remembered nor come to mind?

 

[sovereigngrace]

All I'm suggesting is, in our case, we can never ever experience everlasting the way God can. We can never ever have no beginning. Only God can have no beginning. If in our case, we can experience everlasting going backwards as well as going forward, rather than forward only, would not that contradict what we are told about the NHNE, that the former won't be remembered nor come to mind?

You are ducking the issue. We are the current recipients of eternal life, and, according to Jesus, we shall never perish. You say the opposite.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

We

who is the "we" you listed?

 

[DavidPT]

You are ducking the issue. We are the current recipients of eternal life, and, according to Jesus, we shall never perish. You say the opposite.

I think I see the problem now. We are not on the same page. You are referring to OSAS vs NOSAS. I would rather discuss that since that is the main topic of this thread. I thought what you were asking me invoved my discussion with FredVb.

Anyone who remains saved until their dying breath, or until Jesus bodily returns, which ever one might come first in each person's case, they clearly don't ever perish, nor am I suggesting they do. I'm only suggesting that in regards to the one's that don't remain saved until their dying breath, or until Jesus bodily returns---thus NOSAS. OSAS means not one single person can ever lose their salvation. NOSAS means some, not all, can lose their salvation. NOSAS is Biblical. OSAS isn't unless OSAS agrees that some can lose their salvation, and not instead, no one can lose their salvation. But that would be NOSAS not OSAS in that case.

 

[sovereigngrace]

who is the "we" you listed?

Please give me more than 1 word to see what you are referring to.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I think I see the problem now. We are not on the same page. You are referring to OSAS vs NOSAS. I would rather discuss that since that is the main topic of this thread. I thought what you were asking me invoved my discussion with FredVb.

Anyone who remains saved until their dying breath, or until Jesus bodily returns, which ever one might come first in each person's case, they clearly don't ever perish, nor am I suggesting they do. I'm only suggesting that in regards to the one's that don't remain saved until their dying breath, or until Jesus bodily returns---thus NOSAS. OSAS means not one single person can ever lose their salvation. NOSAS means some, not all, can lose their salvation. NOSAS is Biblical. OSAS isn't unless OSAS agrees that some can lose their salvation, and not instead, no one can lose their salvation. But that would be NOSAS not OSAS in that case.

Jesus said He will lose none whom the Father has given Him.

I prefer His opinion to yours.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Please give me more than 1 word to see what u r referring to.

"We are the current recipients of eternal life, and, according to Jesus, we shall never perish."

Who are you referring to with the word "We"

 

[sovereigngrace]

"We are the current recipients of eternal life, and, according to Jesus, we shall never perish."

Who are you referring to with the word "We"

The elect.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

The elect.

thanks for the reply

 

[hedrick]

Most likely, God is outside the kind of time we are currently in. I don’t know what eternity is, but it could well not be infinitely long linear time.

 

[FredVB]

I think I see the problem now. We are not on the same page. You are referring to OSAS vs NOSAS. I would rather discuss that since that is the main topic of this thread. I thought what you were asking me invoved my discussion with FredVb.

Anyone who remains saved until their dying breath, or until Jesus bodily returns, which ever one might come first in each person's case, they clearly don't ever perish, nor am I suggesting they do. I'm only suggesting that in regards to the one's that don't remain saved until their dying breath, or until Jesus bodily returns---thus NOSAS. OSAS means not one single person can ever lose their salvation. NOSAS means some, not all, can lose their salvation. NOSAS is Biblical. OSAS isn't unless OSAS agrees that some can lose their salvation, and not instead, no one can lose their salvation. But that would be NOSAS not OSAS in that case.

God gives the eternal life, it is why Christ came and it is through Christ, who any come to with faith which is with repentance. That eternal life is not eternal life if it is ever lost. God knows, personally, those to whom God gives eternal life, and that it is eternal life, it is life without any ending, that we cannot have from this world, only God has it which God can give. But those who do not have faith with repentance can come to not care about that, and desire other things instead of life with faith and repenting from sin. But those with that, to whom God does give eternal life, cannot just do that. They continue to have eternal life, which they would not have at all if it was something that could be lost. These things were written so that we who are believers would know.

 

[DavidPT]

God gives the eternal life, it is why Christ came and it is through Christ, who any come to with faith which is with repentance. That eternal life is not eternal life if it is ever lost. God knows, personally, those to whom God gives eternal life, and that it is eternal life, it is life without any ending, that we cannot have from this world, only God has it which God can give. But those who do not have faith with repentance can come to not care about that, and desire other things instead of life with faith and repenting from sin. But those with that, to whom God does give eternal life, cannot just do that. They continue to have eternal life, which they would not have at all if it was something that could be lost. These things were written so that we who are believers would know.

Both OSAS and NOSAS can't be true. Only one of them can be true. Whichone does more damage in the end if it is is not true though assumed true? Suppose NOSAS is not true though assumed true by many. In the end what harm is done? Not one single person loses their salvation, regardless. Right?

OTOH, suppose OSAS is not true though assumed true by many. In the end what harm is done? Not one single person loses their salvation, regardless. Right? Wrong! Clearly, more harm is done in the end if OSAS is not true than if NOSAS is not true. That's a no-brainer.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Both OSAS and NOSAS can't be true. Only one of them can be true. Whichone does more damage in the end if it is is not true though assumed true? Suppose NOSAS is not true though assumed true by many. In the end what harm is done? Not one single person loses their salvation, regardless. Right?

OTOH, suppose OSAS is not true though assumed true by many. In the end what harm is done? Not one single person loses their salvation, regardless. Right? Wrong! Clearly, more harm is done in the end if OSAS is not true than if NOSAS is not true. That's a no-brainer.

This is totally wrong. You present a Jesus who is unfaithful and doesn't keep His Word. You promote a salvation dependent on the faithfulness of man instead of Jesus. These are the deceived on judgment day that are boasting about what they have done Instead of grasping what Jesus has secured.