is new wine fermented?

[Dave-W]

Many who argue against the use of fermented wine for communion (or casual consumption) state that the phrase "Fruit of the vine" is used instead of "wine" in the gospel accounts of the last supper:

Mark 14:25 Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

What is not understood in this context is the wording of the Jewish blessing over any product of grapes including both grapejuice and wine:

Blessed are You O Lord Our God, who creates the fruit of the vine.

That blessing is said 4 times during the passover seder meal.

 

[Norah63]

Just wonder why when using new wine, is that looked upon as arguing? Not!
And who would argue over this issue, is it only the old wine believers? Lets hope not.
There is enough division in the body already.

 

[Dave-W]

I think most of the arguing stems back to the Wesleyan Holiness movement of the early 1800s. It took any consumption of alcohol as the sin of drunkenness. And of course that sin would be considered sufficient to make one lose salvation.

Hence the argument. The strong anti-alcohol crowd are not wanting to see others unknowingly lose salvation.

Admirable but misguided.

 

[Norah63]

Oh my, havent we come a long way, that was over a hundred years ago.
Dont need to hear about the crusades either.
Most christians today have to apoligize for not having the entire bottle of "old" wine.
No worry, have as much as you like, its everyones choice.
Actually the topic was "new" wine. Is there a reason to look down on "new" wine as opposed to "old", i would hope not. peace in the church.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Oh my, havent we come a long way, that was over a hundred years ago.
Dont need to hear about the crusades either.
Most christians today have to apoligize for not having the entire bottle of "old" wine.
No worry, have as much as you like, its everyones choice.
Actually the topic was "new" wine. Is there a reason to look down on "new" wine as opposed to "old", i would hope not. peace in the church.

No need to look down on new wine as opposed to old and most likely the reason that it's what is being used in some churches is because it's what was referenced on the day of Pentecost, at the birth of the church.

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.....
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

Peter seemed to think that a fermentation had occured because he said drunkenness, after the observers had said new wine, so the debate continues.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Many who argue against the use of fermented wine for communion (or casual consumption) state that the phrase "Fruit of the vine" is used instead of "wine" in the gospel accounts of the last supper:

Mark 14:25 Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

What is not understood in this context is the wording of the Jewish blessing over any product of grapes including both grapejuice and wine:

Blessed are You O Lord Our God, who creates the fruit of the vine.

That blessing is said 4 times during the passover seder meal.

God did created the fruit of the vine in pattern form of the true fruit of the vine, blessed from conception in His mother's womb. Jesus drinking it anew in the Kingdom represents to me His accomplishments given to His believers. He is the new wine that is no longer from the old. "until that day when I drink it new" Revelations places that fruit as the tree of life to supply us with all we need. What we do in remembrance of that is secondary to the fact of His accomplishments that should be forefront in mind.

 

[Norah63]

Peter said, "these are not drunken as you suppose". That was what the hearers were thinking, but Peter set them straight. Being full of the 'new' wine doesnt make one drunk, like old wine.
Anyway the new wine that I drank didnt have that effect. Its like there is a wine that is so close to the vine, that it is still has that new flavor.

 

[psalms 91]

The biggest problem with wine as opposed to grape juice is the pharasees. Instead of saying what Giod said that drunkenness is the sin and not drinking they have put a fence around the law. God never said doo not drink, He only said do not get drunk. New wine is used to refer to the Holy Spirit being poured out but can also reference wine as well.

 

[Norah63]

No problem getting drunk on "new" wine.
Maybe those who have never had any just thinking that way, observing the effect of the wine close from the vine.
Pharasee not my interest, just the dif betwen new and old wine.
Thanks for the thoughts added about new wine.

 

[Alithis]

care more about not offending your brother or sister .. then your right to drink alcohol.

it is the way of the world to say "its my right"..it is the way of the lord to say .... if it offends you my beloved brother and sister ..then i shall not do it .

love does not seek its own

 

[Dave-W]

Peter said, "these are not drunken as you suppose". That was what the hearers were thinking, but Peter set them straight. Being full of the 'new' wine doesnt make one drunk, like old wine.
Anyway the new wine that I drank didnt have that effect. Its like there is a wine that is so close to the vine, that it is still has that new flavor.

There would be no "new wine" as you are describing it at Pentecost (Shavuot) because it is about 8 months AFTER the grape harvest. But it still would be "new wine" using their definition as it would not have been finished fermenting. That can take up to a year. They did not have chemical stabilizers or refrigeration to keep it as grape juice. If it was more than 6 weeks off the vine, (and not dried down to raisins) it had alcohol in it.

 

[Dave-W]

The biggest problem with wine as opposed to grape juice is the pharasees. Instead of saying what God said that drunkenness is the sin and not drinking they have put a fence around the law.

HUH?? The Pharisees never said not to drink or get drunk.

In fact, there is only one verse saying that in the entire bible and it is in Paul's letter to the Ephesians chapter 5 verse 18. So those pharisees never saw that biblical command meaning there was no command for them to build a fence around. Indeed, the pharisees COMMANDED drunkenness on Purim - the celebration of the defeat of Haman [BOOO!!] and his plot by queen Esther. (coming up the end of next week)

Indeed, every week the Sabbath is started by taking wine and bread in a short ceremony called Kiddish and the pharisees said it should be alcoholic wine. Grape juice was acceptable (in season) but discouraged.

 

[Dave-W]

care more about not offending your brother or sister .. then your right to drink alcohol.

it is the way of the world to say "its my right"..it is the way of the lord to say .... if it offends you my beloved brother and sister ..then i shall not do it .

love does not seek its own

What do you think is the biblical definition of "offend?" It does not mean to upset one's sensibilities. It means placing a trap for them to fall into and sin.

In the case of alcohol it would be drinking in front of someone who has been a habitual drunk or an alcoholic; which would entice them to go get drunk. How many of your "beloved brothers and sisters" fit that profile?

 

[psalms 91]

HUH?? The Pharisees never said not to drink or get drunk.

In fact, there is only one verse saying that in the entire bible and it is in Paul's letter to the Ephesians chapter 5 verse 18. So those pharisees never saw that biblical command meaning there was no command for them to build a fence around. Indeed, the pharisees COMMANDED drunkenness on Purim - the celebration of the defeat of Haman [BOOO!!] and his plot by queen Esther. (coming up the end of next week)

Indeed, every week the Sabbath is started by taking wine and bread in a short ceremony called Kiddish and the pharisees said it should be alcoholic wine. Grape juice was acceptable (in season) but discouraged.

I am talking about modern day pharasees that do say that. I agree do not offend my brother but there is no prohibition against drinking, just getting drunk.

 

[Norah63]

Yea! We can all get drunk on purim.
When is it? Sounds like sanctioned party time.
Glad for church in the home.....

 

[Dave-W]

Yea! We can all get drunk on purim.
When is it? Sounds like sanctioned party time.
Glad for church in the home.....

The holiday of Purim falls on the Hebrew calendar date of 14th of Adar; or the 14th of Adar2 on leap years.

This year that figures out to sundown March 4 to sundown March 5.

 

[psalms 91]

The holiday of Purim falls on the Hebrew calendar date of 14th of Adar; or the 14th of Adar2 on leap years.

This year that figures out to sundown March 4 to sundown March 5.

How in the world do you get getting drunk out of what I said? As for Purim, it is wine about five cups if I remember right during a meal spread out over time.

 

[Norah63]

Do all over the age of 13 get all five 8ounce cups? Girls and boys both?
How much time is this spread out over in one meal?

 

[Alithis]

What do you think is the biblical definition of "offend?" It does not mean to upset one's sensibilities. It means placing a trap for them to fall into and sin.

In the case of alcohol it would be drinking in front of someone who has been a habitual drunk or an alcoholic; which would entice them to go get drunk. How many of your "beloved brothers and sisters" fit that profile?

in my small congregation i know of two who have had their past lives (and families) ravaged by alcoholism and it would be greatly remiss to flaunt my own liberty in their face (not that i presently have that liberty ,the lord distinctly told be to abstain in sep 2013 and i have not purchased nor partaken of it since (though i would for communion but our congregation uses grape juice )

in larger congregations there will be far more then two on average..(people don't often make things they are ashamed of in their past openly known) it is not our place to tempt other by our actions ..it is not "love" to justify my actions or liberty at the price of my brother or sisters conscience.
better that we lay our life down for our brother and sisters sake .. as that is what our Lord has done for us .

 

[Norah63]

My family had those problems of drinking to excess also.
I was never offended by having the new wine, fresh pressed for communion.
Then I heard teaching that if it wasent old well fermented, then it wasent correct.
So off we goes to get a bottle of mogan david(to be correct) Then did this communion time in the home. Frankly I think communion is a very spiritual time and the alchol, not the larger issue.
No answers yet about the young folks and those five cups of wine, during a meal?