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Is Mary God?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by Daniel Marsh, Oct 9, 2016.

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  1. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    When was Mary first referred to as the "queen of heaven"? I saw that on some of the Catholic sites I just looked up.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  2. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    Not bashing, just asking a sincere question. Apparently you believe that anyone who dares to raise any questions concerning your denominational beliefs is bashing your Church. That is a pity because it certainly does not help in non-Catholic perceptions of Catholic Christians.
     
  3. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    In 1826. A schoolmaster was hanged because he substituted the phrase “Praise be to God” in place of “Ave Maria” (“Hail Mary”) during school prayers

    As found and recorded by Paul Johnson, A History of Christianity, page 308.
    Paul Johnson is a prominent historian and a Catholic.



    When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over, “Mary, my mother!” . When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her.

    As found in book by James G. McCarthy, The Gospel According to Rome: Comparing Catholic Tradition and the Word of God, pp. 181-184; 199-200.


    Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled The Glories of Mary which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice.

    In the book by William Webster, The Church of Rome at the Bar of History, page 87.


    Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “One can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind."

    In the Encyclical Intersodalicia (1918). Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Vol. 1, page 196.



    Pope Pius IX said, “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.”

    In the Encyclical of February 2, 1849. Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Vol. 1, page 196.
     
  4. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Not so my friend! Just pointing out the TRUTH and allowing you to have understanding. I can see from your postings that the truth does in deed hurt.

    You are working hard to defend something that is not defendable. Now YOU personally may not believe this but the truth is that many, many Roman Catholics believe that Mary has an exalted position in heaven. Though Roman Catholic theology has not declared that Mary is divine, as of yet, however they are slowly inching toward that position. Please consider some of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church regarding her. These are not MY opinions and I list the Catholic productions from which you are welcome to read.............

    1.)
    Mary is the Queen over all things
    :
    "Queen over all things" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 966).
    2.)
    Entrust our cares to Mary
    :
    "Holy Mary, Mother of God . . . we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: 'Let it be to me according to your word.' By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: 'Thy will be done,' (CCC 2677).

    3.)
    Mary is Advocate, Helper, Mediatrix
    .
    “ . . . the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.'" (CCC 969).

    4.)
    Mary Delievers our souls
    from death:
    By Mary's prayers, she delivers souls from death (CCC par. 966).

    5.)
    Mary brings us the gifts of Eternal Salvation
    :
    Mary, " . . . by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . (CCC par. 969).

    6.)
    Mary is worshipped
    : " . . . when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son . . . " (Vatican Council II, p. 420).

    7.)
    Mary sits at the right hand of Christ
    : " . . . she is the supreme Minister of the distribution of graces. Jesus "sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high" (Hebrews i. b.). Mary sitteth at the right hand of her Son . . . " (Pope Pius X, 1835-1914, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, 14).

    Now allow me to show you one more interesting fact.

    As you and everyone else can see, the Roman Catholic Church has exalted Mary to an incredibly high level. So, it is not surprising to find that Catholics would look at Rev. 12:1-2 and interpret
    “the woman clothed with the sun” as being a reference to Mary. Is this position correct? No, it is not.

    If you notice the text in verse 2 it says that she was “with child and she cried out being in labor and in pain.” This is a problem because according to the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, Mary did not inherit Original Sin.

    The curse from God because of original sin was that women would deliver children in PAIN.

    CCC 491.........
    “Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.”

    Read it and weep my friend. This one is going to require a really good job of spinning!!!!!! Good luck with that.
     
  5. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    You are wasting your time looking. Or you are confusing veneration with worship. Veneration means great respect or reverence. It does not mean worship. There is not a single Catholic document in a 2000 year period instructing Catholics to worship Mary. And Mary herself would not commit a heresy by telling anyone she is to be worshiped. The whole notion is absurd.
     
  6. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    I can understand that given the horrific persecution against Catholics by Protestants..

    So what. At least the Pope has a heavenly mother. You don't want one. Of course the fact that the pope was shot is secondary to the anti-Catholic agenda.
    So what. William Webster is an anti-Catholic bigot who can't read the Church Fathers never mind 18th century poetry. Give me the page number of the book; you have no context.

    'Most Protestants are taught very little about the Blessed Virgin Mary: The Mother of God the Son (Theotokos, or literally, God-bearer), other than the fact that she rocked baby Jesus’ cradle on the first Christmas and thus helped to make Silent Night(written by an Austrian Catholic priest) the lovely, moving song that it is. Thus, for them to understand the highest theological and spiritual level of Catholic Mariology is somewhat akin to expecting a child who has just mastered the times tables to comprehend calculus or trigonometry. It just won’t happen. Even most Catholics don’t understand these things. They require much thought and study. One has to progress in any form of knowledge little by little.

    The amount of misinformation, disinformation, and incorrect understandings amongst Protestants on these issues can never, in my experience, be underestimated, or overlooked.

    A thorough discussion on Alfonsus de Liguori's book is here:
    St. Alphonsus de Liguori: Mary-Worshiper & Idolater?
    So what. What part of "with Christ" don't you understand? Find a document that says Mary can do anything without Christ. Good luck, you will need it.

    Your so called quote does not exist in NOSTIS ET NOBISCUM of 1849, and no other encyclical was proclaimed in that year. It looks like more misinformation being pumped out at the highest academic levels of Protestantism. It's no wonder you guys are so confused about Marian doctrines.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  7. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Oops.
     
  8. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    I can see from your postings that you ignore mine.
    All the Davidic queens had exalted positions. Jesus was King of Kings, therefore His mother was a queen. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the Church to declare Mary as divine, that's a straw man fallacy.
    Those are your personalized snippets extracted from the catechism and out of context. You don't know how to read the Catechism. It's not to be used as a weapon. Each paragraph is part of an organic whole and you are misrepresenting them.

    One thing at a time. You listed 6-7 different topics. That proves you have already made up your mind and don't want any explanations. You have nothing to do with the biblical Mary but everything to do with the anti-Catholic Mary. That's Christian Taliban theology.

    Did Jesus love His mother?


    [​IMG]

     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  9. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    Did Jesus love His mother?
     
  10. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    In the Old Testament monarchy the Queen of the Davidic Kingdom was the Queen Mother. The Kings, for reasons of state and human weakness, had many wives, none of whom fittingly could be called Queen. That honor was reserved for the mother of the King, whose authority far surpassed the many "queens" married to the king. We see this is the role Bathsheba played with respect to King Solomon and the occasions when the Queen Mother acted as regent on behalf of juvenile successors to the throne.

    The role of the Queen Mother, therefore, is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Mary, just as the role of the Davidic King is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Jesus. Jesus inherited the Kingdom promised to David, who was told that one of his descendants would rule forever. The angel Gabriel revealed this fact to Mary at her Annunciation,
    Luke 1:31-33

    Aside from the prophetic types present in the Kingdom of Judah, there is also the text of Psalm 45, which when speaking of the Kingdom of God also speaks of its Queen.
    Psalm 45:6-11

    That Kingdom ruled by God is the same as the Kingdom ruled eternally by the Son of David. It is not an earthly kingdom, though it is present on earth in the Church, but a heavenly kingdom, the Kingdom of God. The Queen of that Kingdom is the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of the Lord God Jesus Christ.
    Mary has no power or authority over the King.

     
  11. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Did you know that "queen of heaven" is a title given to pagan idols of the mother and child. Every pagan country had different names on the same theme. I can give you a list of them if you like. One being Venus and Cupid. Check out Jeremiah 44 and Ezekiel 8. That one is Ashtoreth and Tammuz. There are about a dozen different goddesses and child combos.

    I find it odd that the church would give Mary that pagan title unless the church adopted the pagan goddess and child and placed it on Mary and Jesus, to appease the pagans when Christianity became the state religion, and all the pagan temples were turned over to the Church. Mary wasn't given that title in the New Testament, so it came afterwards, so when exactly.
     
  12. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your responce. When I coverted to Catholicism a few years back, there were over twenty five converts, from various faiths and beliefs, from Judism to Jehovha Witnesses and many Protestant sects in my RCIA class alone. In the Archdiocese where I am, there were over 200 converts at the Easter Vigil. That equals to forty hands. :) Would you be willing to divulge your city, so I could give you the number of converts to Catholicism in 2016?

    Finding the truth in the Church..... founded by Jesus Christ is the reason.

    There were many reasons, but none of the above. To name a few are.....The dis-unity I experienced in all the differnt churches I attended from the Lutheran church to the many non-denominational churches I attended. One church taught infant baptisim, another would not. One church was against abortion, another was not. One church taught against same sex marriage, one did not. ect...ect... And they all were claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit! So you see...... I had to ask myself, with so much divison, they all can't be guided by the Holy Spirit! Surley the Holy Spirit cannot be the author of such division? There had to be something more!!

    That was the beginning of my studies into early church history. To quote John Henry Cardinal Newman, "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant." Newman’s maxim is not intended to be a "rule" that those Protestants versed in Church history "must" enter the Catholic Church. It is a general observation that Church history argues against Protestantism and that those Protestants who study history deeply many times realize that the Catholic Church is the true Church. What it came down to for me, was the belief, the history, the truth of Catholicism was a gift of faith by God that I had to accept.

    I did do my home work....thats why I converted.

    Thank you for your opinon, but you shouldn't be sad for me for finding the truth.

    If Sola Scriptura is so important, why wasent it taught for the first 15 hundred years of Christianty? If you disagree, please show me some evidence of Sola Scriptura being taught before the Reformation.

    You are abslouty correct, this is why you should study pre- Reformation Christianity.

    Are you suggesting I am to take your interpretation of this passage as truth and without error? Infallible?


    Being a former Protestant, I am full aware of the five solas. Again..... Man made traditions that were never taught in pre-Reformation Christianity. If you find me in error, please show the Protestant teaching of them before the 15th century.


    Could you show evidence from all the tens of thousands differnt Protestant/non-denominational/ non-Catholic sects that are in full communion (total unity) of these beliefs?
     
  13. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    Even you can do better than that. Here is what the text states:

    Lumen gentium

    65. But while in the most holy Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she is without spot or wrinkle, the followers of Christ still strive to increase in holiness by conquering sin.(300) And so they turn their eyes to Mary who shines forth to the whole community of the elect as the model of virtues. Piously meditating on her and contemplating her in the light of the Word made man, the Church with reverence enters more intimately into the great mystery of the Incarnation and becomes more and more like her Spouse. For Mary, who since her entry into salvation history unites in herself and re-echoes the greatest teachings of the faith as she is proclaimed and venerated, calls the faithful to her Son and His sacrifice and to the love of the Father. Seeking after the glory of Christ, the Church becomes more like her exalted Type, and continually progresses in faith, hope and charity, seeking and doing the will of God in all things. Hence the Church, in her apostolic work also, justly looks to her, who, conceived of the Holy Spirit, brought forth Christ, who was born of the Virgin that through the Church He may be born and may increase in the hearts of the faithful also. The Virgin in her own life lived an example of that maternal love, by which it behooves that all should be animated who cooperate in the apostolic mission of the Church for the regeneration of men.
     
  14. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    I live in the Davenport, Iowa diocese. According to their website there were 101 adult professions of faith last year. This is in relation to a total Catholic population of almost 95,000, representing slightly over 1/10 of 1% growth. There are no statistics regarding how many individuals left the diocese during that time, but I have no doubt that the number was considerably higher if, for no other reason, that members die at a much faster rate than 1/10 of 1%. You can check out the statistics here - Diocesan Statistics

    For comparison the net population growth rate of the United States, including the deaths as well as births, was eight times greater.
     
  15. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    Aren't you the same person who recently had a fit over a video that accused Pentecostal "tongues" as having pagan origins?
     
  16. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    You of course are free to do and believe as you wish. But may I say to you that your conversion is NOT Biblical in any way whatsoever.

    According to the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (which may be different from what many Roman Catholics you know actually believe), justification occurs in two stages.

    The first stage of justification is known as initial justification. Catholics believe that when an infant is baptized, they are justified before God. Remaining justified before God, permanent justification, is maintained through a lifetime of striving to do God’s will.

    This is, in part, why there are differing levels of sin in Roman Catholic dogma. Simplified, we could describe the Catholic position as ‘Salvation equals Faith plus Works.’

    For Protestants, justification is the breaking point which led to the Reformation. Protestants do not believe in a synergism of good works plus faith, but instead, believe that it is only through faith that one is justified before God.

    Their good works are a result following their faith but are not the basis of any merit before God. The work of justification is not a process that is jump started by the cross and finished by our own good works.

    From the Protestant position, salvation is a gift from God, not something that is earned. They argue that the good works that James references in James 2 are a product of genuine faith as opposed to a means to being made right before God.
     
  17. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    And that would be a correct statement. "Tongues" were being used in the city of Corinth long before the church was established there.
     
  18. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    Then what was your purpose in posting Pope John Paul II: "Mother of all Peoples" Prayer : University of Dayton, Ohio
    Sorry, but given your reputation as an anti-Catholic, I don't see anything "sincere" about asking where it came from. I had to find the source myself because you couldn't be bothered posting the link. I will answer any sincere question to the best of my ability. But you didn't post it because you have an understanding of Catholic Mariology, your motives are anything but sincere.
     
  19. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    This seems pretty good for the most part, but Catholics also believe that salvation is a free gift from God, and not something that is earned. When we say "merit" in the sense that Protestants often criticize us for, we are not referring to "strict merit" but merit in the sense of "obtain a reward". If I were to write you a check for a million dollars that would be a gift from me to you. The fact that you must do something to receive the money (e.g. go to the bank and cash the check) does not change the fact that what you have received is a gift.
     
  20. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    Many Protestants today realize that Catholics adhere to two of the important "solas" related to salvation sola gratia (by grace alone) and solo Christo (by Christ alone) but fewer are aware that Catholics can also accept the formula of justification sola fide (by faith alone), provided this phrase is properly understood.

    The term pistis (belief) is used in the Bible in a number of different senses, ranging from intellectual belief (Romans 14:22, 23, James 2:19), to assurance (Acts 17:31), and even to trustworthiness or reliability (Romans 3:3, Titus 2:10). Of key importance is Galatians 5:6, which refers to faith working by charity. In Catholic theology, this is what is known as fides formata or faith formed by charity. The alternative to formed faith is fides informis or faith unformed by charity. This is the kind of faith described in James 2:19, for example.

    Whether a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone depends on what sense the term faith is being used in. If it is being used to refer to unformed faith then a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone (which is the point James is making in James 2:19, as every non-antinomian Evangelical agrees; one is not justified by intellectual belief alone).

    However, if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.

    A Catholic would thus reject the idea of justification sola fide informi but wholeheartedly embrace the idea of justification sola fide formata. Adding the word formed to clarify the nature of the faith in sola fides renders the doctrine completely acceptable to a Catholic.

    Why, then, do Catholics not use the formula faith alone in everyday discourse? There are two reasons:

    First, whenever a theological tradition is developing, it must decide which way key terms are going to be used or there will be hopeless confusion. For example, during the early centuries it was decided that in connection with Jesus identity the term God would be used as a noun rather than as a proper name for the Father. This enables us to say, Jesus is God and be understood. If the term God were used as a proper name for the Father in this regard, we would have to say, Jesus is not God. Obviously, the Church could not have people running around saying Jesus is God and Jesus is not God, though both would be perfectly consistent with the Trinity depending on how the term God is being used (i.e., as a noun or a proper name for the Father). Hopeless confusion (and charges of heresy, and bloodbaths) would have resulted in the early centuries if the Church did not specify the meaning of the term God when used in this context.

    Of course, the Bible uses the term God in both senses, but to avoid confusion (and heretical misunderstandings on the part of the faithful, who could incline to either Arianism or Modalism if they misread the word God in the above statements) it later became necessary to adopt one usage over the other when discussing the identity of Jesus.

    A similar phenomenon occurs in connection with the word faith. Evangelical leaders know this by personal experience since they have to continually fight against antinomian understandings of the term faith (and the corresponding antinomian evangelistic practices and false conversions that result). Because faith is such a key term, it is necessary that each theological school have a fixed usage of it in practice, even though there is more than one use of the term in the Bible. Evangelical leaders, in response to the antinomianism that has washed over the American church scene in the last hundred and fifty years, are attempting to impose a uniform usage to the term faith in their community to prevent these problems. (And may they have good luck in this, by the way.)

    This leads me to why Catholics do not use the formula faith alone. Given the different usages of the term faith in the Bible, the early Church had to decide which meaning would be treated as normative. Would it be the Galatians 5 sense or the Romans 14/James 2 sense? The Church opted for the latter for several reasons:

    First, the Romans 14 sense of the term pistis is frankly the more common in the New Testament. It is much harder to think of passages which demand that pistis mean faith formed by charity than it is to think of passages which demand that pistis mean intellectual belief. In fact, even in Galatians 5:6 itself, Paul has to specify that it is faith formed by charity that he is talking about, suggesting that this is not the normal use of the term in his day.

    Second, the New Testament regularly (forty-two times in the KJV) speaks of the faith, meaning a body of theological beliefs (e.g. Jude 3). The connection between pistis and intellectual belief is clearly very strong in this usage.

    Third, Catholic theology has focused on the triad of faith, hope, and charity, which Paul lays great stress on and which is found throughout his writings, not just in 1 Corinthians 13:13 (though that is the locus classicus for it), including places where it is not obvious because of the English translation or the division of verses. If in this triad faith is taken to mean formed faith then hope and charity are collapsed into faith and the triad is flattened. To preserve the distinctiveness of each member of the triad, the Church chose to use the term faith in a way that did not include within it the ideas of hope (trust) and charity (love). Only by doing this could the members of the triad be kept from collapsing into one another.

    Thus the Catholic Church normally expresses the core essences of these virtues like this:

    Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us . . . because he is truth itself. (CCC 1814)

    Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. (CCC 1817)

    Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God. (CCC 1822)

    In common Catholic usage, faith is thus unconditional belief in what God says, hope is unconditional trust in God, and charity is unconditional love for God.
    When we are justified, God places all three of these virtues in our hearts. These virtues are given to each of the justified, even though our outward actions do not always reflect them because of the fallen nature we still possess. Thus a person may still have the virtue of faith even if momentarily tempted by doubt, a person may still have the virtue of trust even if scared or tempted by despair, and a person may still have the virtue of charity even if he often selfish. Only a direct, grave violation (mortal sin against) of one of the virtues destroys the virtue.

    As our sanctification progresses, these virtues within us are strengthened by God and we are able to more easily exercise faith, more easily exercise trust, and more easily exercise love. Performing acts of faith, hope, and charity becomes easier as we grow in the Christian life (note the great difficulty new converts often experience in these areas compared to those who have attained a measure of spiritual maturity).

    However, so long as one has any measure of faith, hope, and charity, one is in a state of justification. Thus Catholics often use the soteriological slogan that we are saved by faith, hope, and charity. This does not disagree with the Protestant soteriological slogan that we are saved by faith alone if the term faith is understood in the latter to be faith formed by charity or Galatians 5 faith.

    One will note, in the definitions of the virtues offered above, the similarity between hope and the way Protestants normally define faith; that is, as an unconditional placing our trust in Christs promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. The definition Protestants normally give to faith is the definition Catholics use for hope.

    However, the Protestant idea of faith by no means excludes what Catholics refer to as faith, since every Evangelical would (or should) say that a person with saving faith will believe whatever God says because God is absolutely truthful and incapable of making an error. Thus the Protestant concept of faith normally includes both the Catholic concept of faith and the Catholic concept of hope.

    Thus if a Protestant further specifies that saving faith is a faith which works by charity then the two soteriological slogans become equivalents. The reason is that a faith which works by charity is a faith which produces acts of love. But a faith which produces acts of love is a faith which includes the virtue of charity, the virtue of charity is the thing that enables us to perform acts of supernatural love in the first place. So a Protestant who says saving faith is a faith which works by charity, as per Galatians 5:6, is saying the same thing as a Catholic when a Catholic says that we are saved by faith, hope, and charity.

    James Akin
     
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