Is Mary God?

[kepha31]

They canonized the books which Jesus Christ made reference (OT books), and that were written by the apostles or their scribes. This was so the ministry/testimony of Jesus Christ would not be corrupted and remain accurate. The issue w/ the RCC is that they have supplemented the simplicity of scripture with unbiblical traditions that replace salvation by grace through faith with additional works. They've added to God's Word and that is an accursed thing to do.

It is one thing to wrongly assert that Catholic Tradition (the beliefs and dogmas which the Church claims to have preserved intact passed down from Christ and the Apostles) is corrupt, excessive and unbiblical. It is quite another to think that the very concept of tradition is contrary to the outlook of the Bible and pure, essential Christianity. This is, broadly speaking, a popular and widespread variant of the distinctive Protestant viewpoint of "Sola Scriptura," or "Scripture Alone," which was one of the rallying cries of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century. It remains the supreme principle of authority, or "rule of faith" for evangelical Protestants today. "Sola Scriptura" by its very nature tends to pit Tradition against the Bible, and it is this unbiblical notion, which we will presently examine.

First of all, one might also loosely define Tradition as the authoritative and authentic Christian History of theological doctrines and devotional practices. Christianity, like Judaism before it, is fundamentally grounded in history, in the earth-shattering historical events in the life of Jesus Christ (the Incarnation, Miracles, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension, etc.).
Eyewitnesses (Lk 1:1-2, Acts 1:1-3, 2 Pet 1:16-18) communicated these true stories to the first Christians, who in turn passed them on to other Christians (under the guidance of the Church's authority) down through the ages. Therefore, Christian tradition, defined as authentic Church history, is unavoidable.

Many Protestants read the accounts of Jesus' conflicts with the Pharisees and get the idea that He was utterly opposed to all tradition whatsoever. This is not true. A close reading of passages such as Matthew 15:3-9 and Mark 7: 8-13 will reveal that He only condemned corrupt traditions of men, not tradition per se. He uses qualifying phrases like "your tradition," "commandments of men," "tradition of men," as opposed to "the commandment of God."
St. Paul draws precisely the same contrast in Colossians 2:8: "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

The New Testament explicitly teaches that traditions can be either good (from God) or bad (from men, when against God's true traditions).

1) 1 Corinthians 11:2: ". . . keep the ordinances, as I delivered {them} to you." (RSV, NRSV, NEB, REB, NKJV, NASB all translate KJV "ordinances" as "tradition{s}").

2) 2 Thessalonians 2:15: ". . . hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

3) 2 Thessalonians 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."

Note that St. Paul draws no qualitative distinction between written and oral tradition. There exists no dichotomy in the Apostle's mind which regards oral Christian tradition as bad and undesirable. Rather, this false belief is, ironically, itself an unbiblical "tradition of men."

 

[4x4toy]

When a protestant church goes over the line you can walk down the street to another church or denomination that is in line .. BTW The 7 churches mentioned in Revelation, which was RCC and if you think they all were then why the discrepencies if they were all under one Pope ..

 

[kepha31]

Kepha , please know that I don't hate Catholics but I'm at least wary .. I had a Catholic brother from Philadelphia who I didn't know until he arrived as my house guest for 3 or 4 days once . He was all Jesus and told me on his death bed in the hospital with heart trouble that God made him a new creation and instead of dying , Jesus supernaturally grew him a new big artery and he was healed and healthy as he ever was . We visited and invited people to our baptist revival door to door and he never mentioned anything catholic at all, like I said he was all Jesus and on fire .. A couple more catholics I run into often at different churches were tongue talking pentecostal also . I've donated to catholic relief services for foreign disasters . There are direct warnings in the Bible though that I can't over look is all we're saying ..
Peace Bro ..Many Protestant churches have problems . We keep our eye on Jesus and his Word, that is the narrow path friend ..

The "warnings" you mention probably means the Bible can be pitted against the Church. The Bible never does that. You do it because it is a man made tradition. The gates of Hades has prevailed, according to anti-Catholics. You must be in conflict with the garbage you have been exposed to with what you see.

 

[kepha31]

When a protestant church goes over the line you can walk down the street to another church or denomination that is in line .. BTW The 7 churches mentioned in Revelation, which was RCC and if you think they all were then why the discrepencies if they were all under one Pope ..

St. John the Apostle evangelized Asia Minor and founded the 7 churches. He had jurisdiction over them the same as any bishop/ Apostle. He taught the same gospel and doctrines as Peter. There were no discrepancies.
The first 40 Popes were killed by pagan Romans, so they had to always be prepared.

 

[kepha31]

LOL, Yeah in your world and if you and they glory in it then you have received your reward among men . So feel free to stop pushing that stuff anytime, I ain't buying

Sorry to confuse you with historical facts.

 

[kepha31]

You said......"That was Catholic doctrine before there was a Bible".
It would seem unnecessary for the Catholic Church and you in particular, to ake the boastful claim of giving the Bible to the world when both it and so-called Protestantism accept the Bible as a revelation from God.

The point is where it came from. If you accept Bible origin fantasies with no scholarly support that's your choice.

It is clear However, that the claim is an attempt to weaken the Bible as the sole authority and to replace it with your man-made church. If it is true that we can accept the Bible only on the basis of the Catholic Church, doesn't that make the Catholic Church superior to the Bible?
BOOM-THERE IT IS!!!!!

That is false Protestant propaganda. BOOM-THERE IT IS!!!!!

This is exactly what Catholic officials want men to believe. Their only problem is that their doctrine comes from their own human reasoning rather than from God. Their logic is a classic example of their "circular reasoning." They try to prove the Bible by the church (can accept the Bible only on the basis of the Catholic Church) and prove the church by the Bible ("has ever grounded her doctrines upon it").

This is an empty opinion, and reflects a gross misunderstanding of the relationship between Tradition, Scripture, and the Magisterium, the biblical rule of faith. They work in harmony. One being over the other is typical Protestant myth making.

Such is absurd reasoning which proves nothing. Either the New Testament is the sole authority or it is not. If it is the New Testament, it cannot be the church, and if it is the church, it cannot be the New Testament.

Without the Church, you would have no New Testament. That's why you have to re-write history - to make it fit your preconceived notions.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I've read some transcripts of some of the "visions" of Mary that some have seen, where "Mary" says to worship HER.

 

[4x4toy]

The "warnings" you mention probably means the Bible can be pitted against the Church. The Bible never does that. You do it because it is a man made tradition. The gates of Hades has prevailed, according to anti-Catholics. You must be in conflict with the garbage you have been exposed to with what you see.

You're getting desperate

 

[ChristopherK]

It's debates like these that have made me weary of discussion, because it no longer remains a dialogue of conversation, but one of justification of ones opinions/ideas.

 

[Major1]

The point is where it came from. If you accept Bible origin fantasies with no scholarly support that's your choice.
That is false Protestant propaganda. BOOM-THERE IT IS!!!!!
This is an empty opinion, and reflects a gross misunderstanding of the relationship between Tradition, Scripture, and the Magisterium, the biblical rule of faith. They work in harmony. One being over the other is typical Protestant myth making.

Without the Church, you would have no New Testament. That's why you have to re-write history - to make it fit your preconceived notions.

It is very sad to see such an inability to accept truth.

God bless you my friend in all that you endeavor to do.

 

[kepha31]

I've read some transcripts of some of the "visions" of Mary that some have seen, where "Mary" says to worship HER.

That's false. Quote the transcript and the source instead of making things up.

 

[1stcenturylady]

That's false. Quote the transcript and the source instead of making things up.

look up visions of Mary on the internet. You will see more than one. It was a long time ago that I looked it up.

 

[kepha31]

It is very sad to see such an inability to accept truth.

God bless you my friend in all that you endeavor to do.

I have no problem accepting the historical truth of Bible origins. Those who deny the authority of the Church who produced the Bible in the first place are forced to re-write history to make it fit their preconceived notions. But the claim that the CC puts herself over the Bible is Protestant propaganda. It doesn't work that way and never has.

 

[Fidelibus]

I believe you are in error my friend.

2 Timothy 3:16 explains that the entire Bible is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. Though this does not say that the Bible is the sole rule of faith, it is clear that it will thoroughly equip a person with faith which results in every good work.

Before my conversion to Catholicism from many differnt Protestant sects, I too used this passage in my defence of the bible alone being sufficient as sole rule of faith. (Sola Scriptura) However, after much study of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition I seen my error. The key word in this passage is useful. Again, like you, I too claimed that 2 Tim. 3:16 claims Scripture is sufficient as a rule of faith. But an examination of the verse in context shows that it doesn’t claim that at all; it only claims Scripture is "profitable" (Greek: ophelimos) that is, helpful. Many things can be profitable for moving one toward a goal, without being sufficient in getting one to the goal. Notice that the passage nowhere even hints that Scripture is "sufficient"—which is, of course, exactly what Protestants (including myself did) think the passage means.

As a Catholic believer I am sure that you know the Catholic Church takes the position that tradition and Scriptures are equally valid sources of revelation. That teaching my friend IS NOT Biblical at all.

With all due respect, I believe it is you that is in error here. When Sola Scripturist use the 2Tim. 3:16-17 passages in their defence of Sola Scriptura, they leave out the most important verses 14-15. In verse 14, Timothy is initially exhorted to hold to the oral teachings—the traditions—that he received from the apostle Paul. This echoes Paul’s reminder of the value of oral tradition in 1:13–14, "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you haveheard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (RSV), and ". . . what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2:2). Here Paul refers exclusively to oral teaching and reminds Timothy to follow that as the "pattern" for his own teaching (1:13). Only after this is Scripture mentioned as "profitable" for Timothy’s ministry.

As a Protestant I must say to you that The Protestant churches nearly all tend to disregard tradition and cling only to the Bible. They endeavor to let the Bible explain itself when mysteries are encountered. If you recall, Jesus did rebuke the religious leaders of His day over this point

Nearly all Protestant churches tend to disregard tradition and cling only to the Bible? Could you identify those who do, and those that do not, and which among them is in error and which are not if they all claim to be guided bu the Holy Spirit?

 

[kepha31]

look up visions of Mary on the internet. You will see more than one. It was a long time ago that I looked it up.

There are lots of anti-Catholic liars on the internet. Mary has never said she is to be worshiped. In fact, the main theme of Marian apparitions is "repent and turn to my Son". You can't tell the difference between the holy and the profane. You have no evidence because "Mary worship" is a heresy. But Bible hate cults have all kinds of falsehoods to put on the internet.

 

[Major1]

Before my conversion to Catholicism from many differnt Protestant sects, I too used this passage in my defence of the bible alone being sufficient as sole rule of faith. (Sola Scriptura) However, after much study of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition I seen my error. The key word in this passage is useful. Again, like you, I too claimed that 2 Tim. 3:16 claims Scripture is sufficient as a rule of faith. But an examination of the verse in context shows that it doesn’t claim that at all; it only claims Scripture is "profitable" (Greek: ophelimos) that is, helpful. Many things can be profitable for moving one toward a goal, without being sufficient in getting one to the goal. Notice that the passage nowhere even hints that Scripture is "sufficient"—which is, of course, exactly what Protestants (including myself did) think the passage means.



With all due respect, I believe it is you that is in error here. When Sola Scripturist use the 2Tim. 3:16-17 passages in their defence of Sola Scriptura, they leave out the most important verses 14-15. In verse 14, Timothy is initially exhorted to hold to the oral teachings—the traditions—that he received from the apostle Paul. This echoes Paul’s reminder of the value of oral tradition in 1:13–14, "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you haveheard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (RSV), and ". . . what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2:2). Here Paul refers exclusively to oral teaching and reminds Timothy to follow that as the "pattern" for his own teaching (1:13). Only after this is Scripture mentioned as "profitable" for Timothy’s ministry.



Nearly all Protestant churches tend to disregard tradition and cling only to the Bible? Could you identify those who do, and those that do not, and which among them is in error and which are not if they all claim to be guided bu the Holy Spirit?

With all due respect to you, I can count on one hand the people I know who have converted to the Catholic faith. Having said that I can not help but wonder if there is another reason for your conversion.

Maybe marriage to a Catholic. Maybe you did it to keep harmony in the family???

Now if you are wanting to know which Protestant faith regard the Bible over traditions of men, I suggest you do the homework yourself then we will not have a back and forth argument over who, what and why.

Actually it is very sad to hear your reasons and your thoughts on Sola Scriptura. You have been greatly mislead in my opinion.

The reason why "Sola Scriptura" is important because it is one of the distinguishing characteristics or key points that separate the true biblical Gospel from false gospels. At stake is the very Gospel itself and it is therefore a matter of eternal life or death.

Getting the Gospel right is of such importance that the Apostle Paul would write in Galatians 1:9...... “As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”

Paul was addressing the same question that solascriptura addresses—on what basis is man declared by God to be justified? Is it by faith alone or by faith combined with works? Paul makes it clear in Galatians and Romans that man is “justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law”, and the rest of the Bible concurs.

Sola Scripura is one of the five solas that came to define and summarize the key issues of the Protestant Reformation. Each of these Latin phrases represents a key area of doctrine that was an issue of contention between the Reformers and the Roman Catholic Church, and today they still serve to summarize key doctrines essential to the Gospel and to Christian life and practice.

The Latin word sola means “alone” or “only” and the essential Christian doctrines represented by these five Latin phrases accurately summarize the biblical teaching on these crucial subjects: sola scriptura—Scripture alone, sola fide—faith alone, sola gratia—grace alone, sola Christus—Christ alone, and sola Deo gloria—for the glory of God alone. Each one is vitally important, and they are all closely tied together. Deviation from one will lead to error in another essential doctrine, and the result will almost always be a false gospel which is powerless to save.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Where did this come from?

“O Mother of all men and women, and of all peoples, you who know all their sufferings and their hopes, you who have a mother's awareness of all the struggles between good and evil, between light and darkness, which afflict the modern world, accept the cry which we, moved by the Holy Spirit, address directly to your Heart. Embrace with the love of the Mother and Handmaid of the Lord, this human world of ours, which we entrust and consecrate to you, for we are full of concern for the earthly and eternal destiny of individuals and peoples.

In a special way we entrust and consecrate to you those individuals and nations which particularly need to be thus entrusted and consecrated.

‘We have recourse to your protection, holy Mother of God!' Despise not our petitions in our necessities”.

“Behold, as we stand before you, Mother of Christ, before your Immaculate Heart, we desire, together with the whole Church, to unite ourselves with the consecration which, for love of us, your Son made of himself to the Father: ‘For their sake', he said, ‘I consecrate myself that they also may be consecrated in the truth' (Jn 17:19). We wish to unite ourselves with our Redeemer in this his consecration for the world and for the human race, which, in his divine Heart, has the power to obtain pardon and to secure reparation.

The power of this consecrationlasts for all time and embraces all individuals, peoples and nations. It overcomes every evil that the spirit of darkness is able to awaken, and has in fact awakened in our times, in the heart of man and in his history.

How deeply we feel the need for the consecration of humanity and the world—our modern world—in union with Christ himself! For the redeeming work of Christ must be shared in by the world through the Church.

The present Year of the Redemption shows this: the special Jubilee of the whole Church.

Above all creatures, may you be blessed, you, the Handmaid of the Lord, who in the fullest way obeyed the divine call!

Hail to you, who are wholly united to the redeeming consecration of your Son!

Mother of the Church! Enlighten the People of God along the paths of faith, hope, and love! Enlighten especially the peoples whose consecration and entrustment by us you are awaiting. Help us to live in the truth of the consecration of Christ for the entire human family of the modern world.

In entrusting to you, O Mother, the world, all individuals and peoples, we also entrust to you this very consecration of the world, placing it in your motherly Heart.

Immaculate Heart! Help us to conquer the menace of evil, which so easily takes root in the hearts of the people of today, and whose immeasurable effects already weigh down upon our modern world and seem to block the paths towards the future!

From famine and war, deliver us.

From nuclear war, from incalculable self-destruction, from every kind of war, deliver us.

From sins against the life of man from its very beginning, deliver us.

From hatred and from the demeaning of the dignity of the children of God, deliver us.

From every kind of injustice in the life of society, both national and international, deliver us.

From readiness to trample on the commandments of God, deliver us.

From attempts to stifle in human hearts the very truth of God, deliver us.

From the loss of awareness of good and evil, deliver us.

From sins against the Holy Spirit, deliver us, deliver us.

Accept, O Mother of Christ, this cry laden with the sufferings of all individual human beings, laden with the sufferings of whole societies.

Help us with the power of the Holy Spirit to conquer all sin: individual sin and the ‘sin of the world', sin in all its manifestations.

Let there be revealed, once more, in the history of the world the infinite saving power of the Redemption: the power of merciful Love! May it put a stop to evil! May it transform consciences! May your Immaculate Heart reveal for all the light of Hope!”.

 

[1stcenturylady]

There are lots of anti-Catholic liars on the internet. Mary has never said she is to be worshiped. In fact, the main theme of Marian apparitions is "repent and turn to my Son". You can't tell the difference between the holy and the profane. You have no evidence because "Mary worship" is a heresy. But Bible hate cults have all kinds of falsehoods to put on the internet.

As I recall it wasn't on a anti-Catholic site. I just tried to find the exact location, and I can't find it.

 

[kepha31]

Where did this come from?

“O Mother of all men and women, and of all peoples, you who know all their sufferings and their hopes, you who have a mother's awareness of all the struggles between good and evil, between light and darkness, which afflict the modern world, accept the cry which we, moved by the Holy Spirit, address directly to your Heart. Embrace with the love of the Mother and Handmaid of the Lord, this human world of ours, which we entrust and consecrate to you, for we are full of concern for the earthly and eternal destiny of individuals and peoples.

In a special way we entrust and consecrate to you those individuals and nations which particularly need to be thus entrusted and consecrated.

‘We have recourse to your protection, holy Mother of God!' Despise not our petitions in our necessities”.

“Behold, as we stand before you, Mother of Christ, before your Immaculate Heart, we desire, together with the whole Church, to unite ourselves with the consecration which, for love of us, your Son made of himself to the Father: ‘For their sake', he said, ‘I consecrate myself that they also may be consecrated in the truth' (Jn 17:19). We wish to unite ourselves with our Redeemer in this his consecration for the world and for the human race, which, in his divine Heart, has the power to obtain pardon and to secure reparation.

The power of this consecrationlasts for all time and embraces all individuals, peoples and nations. It overcomes every evil that the spirit of darkness is able to awaken, and has in fact awakened in our times, in the heart of man and in his history.

How deeply we feel the need for the consecration of humanity and the world—our modern world—in union with Christ himself! For the redeeming work of Christ must be shared in by the world through the Church.

The present Year of the Redemption shows this: the special Jubilee of the whole Church.

Above all creatures, may you be blessed, you, the Handmaid of the Lord, who in the fullest way obeyed the divine call!

Hail to you, who are wholly united to the redeeming consecration of your Son!

Mother of the Church! Enlighten the People of God along the paths of faith, hope, and love! Enlighten especially the peoples whose consecration and entrustment by us you are awaiting. Help us to live in the truth of the consecration of Christ for the entire human family of the modern world.

In entrusting to you, O Mother, the world, all individuals and peoples, we also entrust to you this very consecration of the world, placing it in your motherly Heart.

Immaculate Heart! Help us to conquer the menace of evil, which so easily takes root in the hearts of the people of today, and whose immeasurable effects already weigh down upon our modern world and seem to block the paths towards the future!

From famine and war, deliver us.

From nuclear war, from incalculable self-destruction, from every kind of war, deliver us.

From sins against the life of man from its very beginning, deliver us.

From hatred and from the demeaning of the dignity of the children of God, deliver us.

From every kind of injustice in the life of society, both national and international, deliver us.

From readiness to trample on the commandments of God, deliver us.

From attempts to stifle in human hearts the very truth of God, deliver us.

From the loss of awareness of good and evil, deliver us.

From sins against the Holy Spirit, deliver us, deliver us.

Accept, O Mother of Christ, this cry laden with the sufferings of all individual human beings, laden with the sufferings of whole societies.

Help us with the power of the Holy Spirit to conquer all sin: individual sin and the ‘sin of the world', sin in all its manifestations.

Let there be revealed, once more, in the history of the world the infinite saving power of the Redemption: the power of merciful Love! May it put a stop to evil! May it transform consciences! May your Immaculate Heart reveal for all the light of Hope!”.

Written by St. Pope John Paul II. Too bad you don't understand "entrust" and "consecrate". Here is the full context: Pope John Paul II: "Mother of all Peoples" Prayer : University of Dayton, Ohio

What it comes down to is your denial of the BIBLICAL doctrine of the Intercession of the Saints, and a total MISUNDERSTANDING of "Mother of All Peoples", and you won't get it until you are ready, so you keep bashing away out of blind prejudice.

 

[kepha31]

As I recall it wasn't on a anti-Catholic site. I just tried to find the exact location, and I can't find it.

You won't find where "Mary" says to worship HER on a Catholic site because it is a heresy. But you can find it on sites written by anti-Catholic bigots. You have falsely accused Catholics of committing a heresy over your preconceived notion.