Is Mary God?

[Major1]

This seems pretty good for the most part, but Catholics also believe that salvation is a free gift from God, and not something that is earned. When we say "merit" in the sense that Protestants often criticize us for, we are not referring to "strict merit" but merit in the sense of "obtain a reward". If I were to write you a check for a million dollars that would be a gift from me to you. The fact that you must do something to receive the money (e.g. go to the bank and cash the check) does not change the fact that what you have received is a gift.

I mean no disrespect to you and as all others your choices are yours choices. I am not your enemy neither am I your judge. All I do is try to explain the difference between Catholic theology and Biblical truth. I am sure that you are comfortable in your understanding of salvation and works. However, what you are stating and what the Catholic church says are two different things.

". . . Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that 'we too might walk in newness of life,'"
(CCC 977).

“Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude . . . " (CCC 1257).

"Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy," (CCC 2020).

According to Roman Catholicism, once a person is baptized and his original sin is removed, he must perform good works because they are also necessary for salvation....................

”The specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC, par. 2010).

“The Decalogue [the Ten Commandments] contains a privileged expression of the natural law. It is made known to us by divine revelation and by human reason,” (CCC 2080).

" . . . the Second Vatican Council confirms: 'The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments,'" (CCC 2068).

So then, according to the Catholics own doctrine........good works are necessary because Roman Catholicism denies justification by faith alone. Justification is the declaration of righteousness. It is where the righteousness of Christ is reckoned to the believer (Phil. 3:9) by faith (Rom. 5:1). It is not by faith and something but by faith alone (Rom. 4:1-5). But, Roman Catholicism declares that if anyone believes in justification by faith alone in Christ alone, then he is to be cursed.

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 14).

“If any one saith, that the justice [righteousness] received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema." (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 24).

So in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation is a process that includes faith, baptism, and good works. Therefore, in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation and being justified (being right in God’s eyes) is not an instantaneous event received by faith. It is a long process which IS NOT FOUND ANYWHERE IN THE SCRIPTURES.

 

[Major1]

Many Protestants today realize that Catholics adhere to two of the important "solas" related to salvation sola gratia (by grace alone) and solo Christo (by Christ alone) but fewer are aware that Catholics can also accept the formula of justification sola fide (by faith alone), provided this phrase is properly understood.

The term pistis (belief) is used in the Bible in a number of different senses, ranging from intellectual belief (Romans 14:22, 23, James 2:19), to assurance (Acts 17:31), and even to trustworthiness or reliability (Romans 3:3, Titus 2:10). Of key importance is Galatians 5:6, which refers to faith working by charity. In Catholic theology, this is what is known as fides formata or faith formed by charity. The alternative to formed faith is fides informis or faith unformed by charity. This is the kind of faith described in James 2:19, for example.

Whether a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone depends on what sense the term faith is being used in. If it is being used to refer to unformed faith then a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone (which is the point James is making in James 2:19, as every non-antinomian Evangelical agrees; one is not justified by intellectual belief alone).

However, if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.

A Catholic would thus reject the idea of justification sola fide informi but wholeheartedly embrace the idea of justification sola fide formata. Adding the word formed to clarify the nature of the faith in sola fides renders the doctrine completely acceptable to a Catholic.

Why, then, do Catholics not use the formula faith alone in everyday discourse? There are two reasons:

First, whenever a theological tradition is developing, it must decide which way key terms are going to be used or there will be hopeless confusion. For example, during the early centuries it was decided that in connection with Jesus identity the term God would be used as a noun rather than as a proper name for the Father. This enables us to say, Jesus is God and be understood. If the term God were used as a proper name for the Father in this regard, we would have to say, Jesus is not God. Obviously, the Church could not have people running around saying Jesus is God and Jesus is not God, though both would be perfectly consistent with the Trinity depending on how the term God is being used (i.e., as a noun or a proper name for the Father). Hopeless confusion (and charges of heresy, and bloodbaths) would have resulted in the early centuries if the Church did not specify the meaning of the term God when used in this context.

Of course, the Bible uses the term God in both senses, but to avoid confusion (and heretical misunderstandings on the part of the faithful, who could incline to either Arianism or Modalism if they misread the word God in the above statements) it later became necessary to adopt one usage over the other when discussing the identity of Jesus.

A similar phenomenon occurs in connection with the word faith. Evangelical leaders know this by personal experience since they have to continually fight against antinomian understandings of the term faith (and the corresponding antinomian evangelistic practices and false conversions that result). Because faith is such a key term, it is necessary that each theological school have a fixed usage of it in practice, even though there is more than one use of the term in the Bible. Evangelical leaders, in response to the antinomianism that has washed over the American church scene in the last hundred and fifty years, are attempting to impose a uniform usage to the term faith in their community to prevent these problems. (And may they have good luck in this, by the way.)

This leads me to why Catholics do not use the formula faith alone. Given the different usages of the term faith in the Bible, the early Church had to decide which meaning would be treated as normative. Would it be the Galatians 5 sense or the Romans 14/James 2 sense? The Church opted for the latter for several reasons:

First, the Romans 14 sense of the term pistis is frankly the more common in the New Testament. It is much harder to think of passages which demand that pistis mean faith formed by charity than it is to think of passages which demand that pistis mean intellectual belief. In fact, even in Galatians 5:6 itself, Paul has to specify that it is faith formed by charity that he is talking about, suggesting that this is not the normal use of the term in his day.

Second, the New Testament regularly (forty-two times in the KJV) speaks of the faith, meaning a body of theological beliefs (e.g. Jude 3). The connection between pistis and intellectual belief is clearly very strong in this usage.

Third, Catholic theology has focused on the triad of faith, hope, and charity, which Paul lays great stress on and which is found throughout his writings, not just in 1 Corinthians 13:13 (though that is the locus classicus for it), including places where it is not obvious because of the English translation or the division of verses. If in this triad faith is taken to mean formed faith then hope and charity are collapsed into faith and the triad is flattened. To preserve the distinctiveness of each member of the triad, the Church chose to use the term faith in a way that did not include within it the ideas of hope (trust) and charity (love). Only by doing this could the members of the triad be kept from collapsing into one another.

Thus the Catholic Church normally expresses the core essences of these virtues like this:

Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us . . . because he is truth itself. (CCC 1814)

Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. (CCC 1817)

Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God. (CCC 1822)

In common Catholic usage, faith is thus unconditional belief in what God says, hope is unconditional trust in God, and charity is unconditional love for God.
When we are justified, God places all three of these virtues in our hearts. These virtues are given to each of the justified, even though our outward actions do not always reflect them because of the fallen nature we still possess. Thus a person may still have the virtue of faith even if momentarily tempted by doubt, a person may still have the virtue of trust even if scared or tempted by despair, and a person may still have the virtue of charity even if he often selfish. Only a direct, grave violation (mortal sin against) of one of the virtues destroys the virtue.

As our sanctification progresses, these virtues within us are strengthened by God and we are able to more easily exercise faith, more easily exercise trust, and more easily exercise love. Performing acts of faith, hope, and charity becomes easier as we grow in the Christian life (note the great difficulty new converts often experience in these areas compared to those who have attained a measure of spiritual maturity).

However, so long as one has any measure of faith, hope, and charity, one is in a state of justification. Thus Catholics often use the soteriological slogan that we are saved by faith, hope, and charity. This does not disagree with the Protestant soteriological slogan that we are saved by faith alone if the term faith is understood in the latter to be faith formed by charity or Galatians 5 faith.

One will note, in the definitions of the virtues offered above, the similarity between hope and the way Protestants normally define faith; that is, as an unconditional placing our trust in Christs promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. The definition Protestants normally give to faith is the definition Catholics use for hope.

However, the Protestant idea of faith by no means excludes what Catholics refer to as faith, since every Evangelical would (or should) say that a person with saving faith will believe whatever God says because God is absolutely truthful and incapable of making an error. Thus the Protestant concept of faith normally includes both the Catholic concept of faith and the Catholic concept of hope.

Thus if a Protestant further specifies that saving faith is a faith which works by charity then the two soteriological slogans become equivalents. The reason is that a faith which works by charity is a faith which produces acts of love. But a faith which produces acts of love is a faith which includes the virtue of charity, the virtue of charity is the thing that enables us to perform acts of supernatural love in the first place. So a Protestant who says saving faith is a faith which works by charity, as per Galatians 5:6, is saying the same thing as a Catholic when a Catholic says that we are saved by faith, hope, and charity.

James Akin

You can quote all the Catholic web sites you want to and spin them to meet your thinking. However the truth is still found in the Scriptures and not in Catholic dogma.

In Gal. 3:1-3 Paul is clearly teaching that the Galatians were fools. Why? They were adding works to the work of the Holy Spirit. In Gal. 5:2-4, Paul tells them if they received circumcision, that they would not be under grace. Circumcision represented the works of the Law, and Paul clearly tells them that just getting circumcised (not doing good works) would damn them. Why?

Because it was a symbol of keeping the Law. That is why Paul had previously said in Gal. 3:10.....
"For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

Finally, in Matt. 7:22-23 we see an account where Jesus condemns people on the day of judgment. Why would they be condemned? They were appealing to their faith in Christ and their works for their salvation on "bad day." By adding any works into the active salvation, it means that the work of God is not sufficient, but that it needs to be perfected--completed by human effort. This is why salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. It cannot be by faith and any of our works.

Rom. 11:6........
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

 

[Major1]

I can understand that given the horrific persecution against Catholics by Protestants..

So what. At least the Pope has a heavenly mother. You don't want one. Of course the fact that the pope was shot is secondary to the anti-Catholic agenda.
So what. William Webster is an anti-Catholic bigot who can't read the Church Fathers never mind 18th century poetry. Give me the page number of the book; you have no context.

'Most Protestants are taught very little about the Blessed Virgin Mary: The Mother of God the Son (Theotokos, or literally, God-bearer), other than the fact that she rocked baby Jesus’ cradle on the first Christmas and thus helped to make Silent Night(written by an Austrian Catholic priest) the lovely, moving song that it is. Thus, for them to understand the highest theological and spiritual level of Catholic Mariology is somewhat akin to expecting a child who has just mastered the times tables to comprehend calculus or trigonometry. It just won’t happen. Even most Catholics don’t understand these things. They require much thought and study. One has to progress in any form of knowledge little by little.

The amount of misinformation, disinformation, and incorrect understandings amongst Protestants on these issues can never, in my experience, be underestimated, or overlooked.

A thorough discussion on Alfonsus de Liguori's book is here:
St. Alphonsus de Liguori: Mary-Worshiper & Idolater?
So what. What part of "with Christ" don't you understand? Find a document that says Mary can do anything without Christ. Good luck, you will need it.


Your so called quote does not exist in NOSTIS ET NOBISCUM of 1849, and no other encyclical was proclaimed in that year. It looks like more misinformation being pumped out at the highest academic levels of Protestantism. It's no wonder you guys are so confused about Marian doctrines.

And there is the real problem. When shown the exact words from Catholic apologetic websites, you reject them just as you do the Scriptures.

 

[Major1]

You are wasting your time looking. Or you are confusing veneration with worship. Veneration means great respect or reverence. It does not mean worship. There is not a single Catholic document in a 2000 year period instructing Catholics to worship Mary. And Mary herself would not commit a heresy by telling anyone she is to be worshiped. The whole notion is absurd.

" . . . when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son . . . " (Vatican Council II, p. 420).

Now how do you "Spin" that one my friend????????

 

[kepha31]

Did you know that "queen of heaven" is a title given to pagan idols of the mother and child. Every pagan country had different names on the same theme. I can give you a list of them if you like. One being Venus and Cupid. Check out Jeremiah 44 and Ezekiel 8. That one is Ashtoreth and Tammuz. There are about a dozen different goddesses and child combos.

I find it odd that the church would give Mary that pagan title unless the church adopted the pagan goddess and child and placed it on Mary and Jesus, to appease the pagans when Christianity became the state religion, and all the pagan temples were turned over to the Church. Mary wasn't given that title in the New Testament, so it came afterwards, so when exactly.

In a lasting vestige of anti-Catholic prejudice, a concerted effort to discredit the Church is being made today by some non-Catholic Christians who continue to propagate the falsehood that Catholics worship Mary OR that the devotion to the Blessed Mother is a continuation of devotion to the various mother goddesses of the ancient pagan pantheons. These charges can legitimately be called prejudices because they proceed from a prejudgment (made in advance based on preconceived ideas about what Catholics believe) and efforts to enlighten and convince with facts usually fall on deaf ears.

Much is made of the title Queen of Heaven by those who attack Catholicism and Marian devotion. The allusion is always to the pagan pantheons and to the mother of the gods, often mother in a very carnal sense of other pagan deities. The Canaanite worship of the "Queen of Heaven" condemned by the prophets is mentioned, as is the worship of Diana of the Ephesians, devotion to whom was exceeding popular before the Gospel arrived among the pagans. It is said that Catholicism at the Council of Ephesus restored this pagan devotion under the cover of devotion to Mary. The history of that Council given above shows the absurdity, and the intellectual dishonesty, of that claim! One might as well claim with respect to Jesus that Christians worship a mere man, since to arrive at this conclusion the Church's teaching must be ripped from its context and distorted to fit a preconceived judgement.

What then does it mean for Mary to be the Queen of Heaven? In the Old Testament monarchy the Queen of the Davidic Kingdom was the Queen Mother. The Kings, for reasons of state and human weakness, had many wives, none of whom fittingly could be called Queen. That honor was reserved for the mother of the King, whose authority far surpassed the many "queens" married to the king. We see this is the role Bathsheba played with respect to King Solomon and the occasions when the Queen Mother acted as regent on behalf of juvenile successors to the throne.

The role of the Queen Mother, therefore, is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Mary, just as the role of the Davidic King is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Jesus. Jesus inherited the Kingdom promised to David, who was told that one of his descendants would rule forever. The angel Gabriel revealed this fact to Mary at her Annunciation. Luke 1:31-33
THERE IS NO PARALLEL WITH PAGAN GODDESSES.

That Kingdom ruled by God is the same as the Kingdom ruled eternally by the Son of David. It is not an earthly kingdom, though it is present on earth in the Church, but a heavenly kingdom, the Kingdom of God. The Queen of that Kingdom is the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of the Lord God Jesus Christ.

 

[kepha31]

" . . . when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son . . . " (Vatican Council II, p. 420).

Now how do you "Spin" that one my friend????????

Lumen Gentium, the Vatican II document you're quoting from, was not even written in English in the first place. It was written in Latin, and the Latin text of the passage you quoted (see here, paragraph 65) says "dum praedicatur et colitur, ad Filium suum Eiusque sacrificium atque ad amorem Patris credentes advocat" (in a more current translation, "as she is proclaimed and venerated, [she] calls the faithful to her Son and His sacrifice and to the love of the Father"). The word in question is colitur, so you might as well read the entry on colo (the base form of the word) from the excellent Lewis & Short Latin dictionary.

As you'll see, it is quite broad in meaning, with the meanings applicable here being in the nature of "to honor, respect, revere, reverence, worship." In Church Latin, colo is generally used in the sense of "venerate, reverence," while adoro ("adore") is the verb used to express the worship due to God alone.

I have the context of paragraph 65,

Article 65. But while in the most Blessed Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle (cf Eph 5:27), the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they turn their eyes to Mary who shines forth to the whole community of the elect as the model of virtues. Devoutly meditating on her and contemplating her in the light of the Word made man, the Church reverently penetrates more deeply into the great mystery of the Incarnation and becomes more and more like her spouse. Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father. Seeking after the glory of Christ, the Church becomes more like her lofty type, and continually progresses in faith, hope and charity, seeking and doing the will of God in all things. The Church, therefore, in her apostolic work too, rightly looks to her who gave birth to Christ who was thus conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of a Virgin, in order that through the Church he could be born and increase in the hearts of the faithful. In her life the Virgin has been a model of that motherly love with which all who join in the Church's apostolic mission for the regeneration of mankind should be animated.
Lumen gentium

It doesn't mean Mary is to be worshiped in isolation from the context. It means dishonest anti-Catholic liars have a field day posting your quote all over the Internet as if it proves something. The only thing it proves is illiteracy. I gave the full paragraph. You have the spin, I don't.


For the third time:
Did Jesus love His mother?

 

[kepha31]

I mean no disrespect to you and as all others your choices are yours choices. I am not your enemy neither am I your judge. All I do is try to explain the difference between Catholic theology and Biblical truth. I am sure that you are comfortable in your understanding of salvation and works. However, what you are stating and what the Catholic church says are two different things.

". . . Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that 'we too might walk in newness of life,'"
(CCC 977).

“Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude . . . " (CCC 1257).

"Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy," (CCC 2020).

According to Roman Catholicism, once a person is baptized and his original sin is removed, he must perform good works because they are also necessary for salvation....................

”The specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC, par. 2010).

“The Decalogue [the Ten Commandments] contains a privileged expression of the natural law. It is made known to us by divine revelation and by human reason,” (CCC 2080).

" . . . the Second Vatican Council confirms: 'The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments,'" (CCC 2068).

So then, according to the Catholics own doctrine........good works are necessary because Roman Catholicism denies justification by faith alone. Justification is the declaration of righteousness. It is where the righteousness of Christ is reckoned to the believer (Phil. 3:9) by faith (Rom. 5:1). It is not by faith and something but by faith alone (Rom. 4:1-5). But, Roman Catholicism declares that if anyone believes in justification by faith alone in Christ alone, then he is to be cursed.

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 14).

“If any one saith, that the justice [righteousness] received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema." (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 24).

So in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation is a process that includes faith, baptism, and good works. Therefore, in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation and being justified (being right in God’s eyes) is not an instantaneous event received by faith. It is a long process which IS NOT FOUND ANYWHERE IN THE SCRIPTURES.

I don't reply to multiple topic rants that would take 5 pages to answer, which would fall on deaf ears anyway. One at a time, please, not 7 topics. Then I will take you seriously.

 

[PeaceB]

I mean no disrespect to you and as all others your choices are yours choices. I am not your enemy neither am I your judge.

I did not believe the opposite, but thank you for clarifying, regardless.

All I do is try to explain the difference between Catholic theology and Biblical truth. I am sure that you are comfortable in your understanding of salvation and works.

Amen.

However, what you are stating and what the Catholic church says are two different things.

I am familiar with the Catechism and with Trent, and they are in agreement with what I wrote. You seem to think that if one must do anything at all to receive or to hold onto a gift (such as obeying the commandments) then the gift is no longer a gift. But let me ask you this, if I gave you a check for one million dollars, does the fact that you have to go to the bank and cash the check mean that it is no longer a gift?

Now for the particulars, certainly the Catholic Church teaches that one must perform good works (the primary one of which is obeying the commandments) to remain in a state of grace. This is taught in Scripture at many places. For example:

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

. . .​

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

. . .

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

But the fact that one must obey the commandments does not negate the fact that salvation is a gift from God. Going back to my analogy above, "obeying the commandments" is analogous to "going to the bank and cashing the check." The fact that you have to do something to receive a gift, does not change the fact that it is a gift.

Much of the same can be said for baptism. It is the means by which the Lord has chosen to apply the merits of his work on the cross to those whom he chooses. That is why he said “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" and why St. Peter said "Baptism . . . now saves you". And the Catholic Church certainly does not teach that Baptism is something that we earn or deserve:

Paul III Council of Trent-6

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.

For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.​

But, Roman Catholicism declares that if anyone believes in justification by faith alone in Christ alone, then he is to be cursed.

Yes, I am very well aware of that. I addressed your main objection above, but you can look at these Scriptures, for example, to see that the doctrine has support in Scripture.

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

"For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
​

So in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation is a process that includes faith, baptism, and good works. Therefore, in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation and being justified (being right in God’s eyes) is not an instantaneous event received by faith. It is a long process which IS NOT FOUND ANYWHERE IN THE SCRIPTURES.

You can begin with the verses I provided you above.

There are also many others that you can look at. For example:

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.

. . .

And you will be hated of all men for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

. . .

For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.

. . .

I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

​

 

[PeaceB]

" . . . when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son . . . " (Vatican Council II, p. 420).

Now how do you "Spin" that one my friend????????

That is a bad translation, by the way. The Catholic Church does not cite by page numbers, it cites by paragraphs numbers. So if you see page numbers you likely have a bad source.

Here is the exact paragraph in question, from the website of the Church Herself. Please click on the link to verify the text for yourself.

Lumen gentium

65. But while in the most holy Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she is without spot or wrinkle, the followers of Christ still strive to increase in holiness by conquering sin.(300) And so they turn their eyes to Mary who shines forth to the whole community of the elect as the model of virtues. Piously meditating on her and contemplating her in the light of the Word made man, the Church with reverence enters more intimately into the great mystery of the Incarnation and becomes more and more like her Spouse. For Mary, who since her entry into salvation history unites in herself and re-echoes the greatest teachings of the faith as she is proclaimed and venerated, calls the faithful to her Son and His sacrifice and to the love of the Father. Seeking after the glory of Christ, the Church becomes more like her exalted Type, and continually progresses in faith, hope and charity, seeking and doing the will of God in all things. Hence the Church, in her apostolic work also, justly looks to her, who, conceived of the Holy Spirit, brought forth Christ, who was born of the Virgin that through the Church He may be born and may increase in the hearts of the faithful also. The Virgin in her own life lived an example of that maternal love, by which it behooves that all should be animated who cooperate in the apostolic mission of the Church for the regeneration of men.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Peace be with you.

Mary is the Mother of God. This is an Absolute Fact.

Mary is in Heaven and intercedes before Jesus Christ, Her Son for All Her Children which God has given Her. This is an Absolute Fact.

Trust me, I know such things.

My opinion is that people who talk about faith and Salvation as a free gift from God and that works are not necessary for Salvation will not survive Judgment.

Such people are basically saying your actions and conduct in life do not matter in relation to your Salvation. Even some normal people who are not Christians understand this stupid and foolish fallacy.

I am 100% certain such people will surely be condemned when your whole life is dissected and put under the microscope by God during your Judgment.

The reasoning for such people being condemned is that such people have basically nullified the purpose of the Christian faith which Jesus Christ founded which is to save sinners from condemnation through repentance and reformation of their sinful lives to the life that God has Willed for them.

Such people do not desire to do the Will of God and therefore take shortcuts thinking and believing their presumptuous faith will save them, not knowing what Judgment and Scrutiny by Almighty God means.

Trust me when I tell you this before it is too late.


Peter, here states that the righteous one is barely saved:

1 Peter 4 Modern English Version (MEV)
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God, and if it begins first with us, what shall the end be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And

“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

19 So then, let those who suffer according to the will of God entrust their souls to a faithful Creator, while continuing to do good.


What is the difference between the righteous and the ungodly and sinner? Is it not in their deeds? Righteous people act like this, ungodly people and sinners act like that.


Here Luke states Simon Peter was a sinner:

Luke 5 Modern English Version (MEV)
8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord.”


So Simon Peter was no longer a sinner because He suffered doing the will of God while continually doing good. Faith is confined in his deeds. Simon Peter was no longer the same person as he was before not because he says so but because of his deeds.


I would say that the Catholic faith is the most abundant and richest out of all the Christian faiths because the Catholic faith has the most arsenal of spiritual weapons ranging from the Holy Scripture, to the Holy Sacraments, to Mary the Mother of God and the Holy Rosary, to the Holy Patron Saints, to the Holy Books of the Saints, to all the Congregation of the faith which consists of all the faithful in all positions of the Church, all created and designed to assist the sinner to fight the good fight against the forces of darkness who wills your condemnation when applied with prudence, fortitude, fear of God, patience, perverence, faith, hope, kindness, love, humility, temperance, diligence, purity, chastity, generosity, charity in God who has willed to share His Blessed Mother with us for our Salvation.

Do not be presumptuous thinking you know the Holy Scriptures. From what I can see and gather, a lot of interpretations are merely opinions of self-willed sinners who think and believe their opinions and interpretations of the Holy Scripture are actually the Word of God.

God bless you.

 

[kepha31]

I mean no disrespect to you and as all others your choices are yours choices. I am not your enemy neither am I your judge. All I do is try to explain the difference between Catholic theology and Biblical truth. I am sure that you are comfortable in your understanding of salvation and works. However, what you are stating and what the Catholic church says are two different things.

". . . Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that 'we too might walk in newness of life,'"
(CCC 977).

“Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude . . . " (CCC 1257).

"Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy," (CCC 2020).

According to Roman Catholicism, once a person is baptized and his original sin is removed, he must perform good works because they are also necessary for salvation....................

”The specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC, par. 2010).

“The Decalogue [the Ten Commandments] contains a privileged expression of the natural law. It is made known to us by divine revelation and by human reason,” (CCC 2080).

" . . . the Second Vatican Council confirms: 'The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments,'" (CCC 2068).

So then, according to the Catholics own doctrine........good works are necessary because Roman Catholicism denies justification by faith alone. Justification is the declaration of righteousness. It is where the righteousness of Christ is reckoned to the believer (Phil. 3:9) by faith (Rom. 5:1). It is not by faith and something but by faith alone (Rom. 4:1-5). But, Roman Catholicism declares that if anyone believes in justification by faith alone in Christ alone, then he is to be cursed.

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 14).

Unformed faith, that is, faith formed without charity, is a dead faith. Faith formed by charity is the kind of faith you want. The question is, what sense of faith did the reformers use?

“If any one saith, that the justice [righteousness] received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema." (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 24).

So in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation is a process that includes faith, baptism, and good works. Therefore, in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation and being justified (being right in God’s eyes) is not an instantaneous event received by faith. It is a long process which IS NOT FOUND ANYWHERE IN THE SCRIPTURES.

Unformed faith alone is not found anywhere in Scriptures. See James 2:24.

If good works are not necessary for salvation, then a large proportion of Bible verses are totally useless. For instance, St. Peter’s admonition to “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith…”

If one does not have to resist the devil to be saved, then such an admonition on St. Peter’s part is useless; and not only useless, but cruel, since he is unnecessarily putting a difficult responsibility on his followers. The same would apply to any passage in .the Bible that enjoins watchfulness, perseverance, fortitude, avoidance of sin, praying to be delivered from temptation, and many other like virtues and actions. Protestants often remind us that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (2 Tim. 3:16) Since all of it is profitable, then there can be no useless verses.

WORKS: watchfulness, perseverance, fortitude, avoidance of sin, praying to be delivered from temptation, and many other like virtues and actions.

Francis Beckwith, former President of the Evangelical Theological Society:

"Then I read the Council of Trent, which some Protestant friends had suggested I do. What I found was shocking. I found a document that had been nearly universally misrepresented by many Protestants, including some friends.

I do not believe, however, that the misrepresentation is the result of purposeful deception. But rather, it is the result of reading Trent with Protestant assumptions and without a charitable disposition.

For example, Trent talks about the four causes of justification, which correspond somewhat to Aristotle’s four causes. None of these causes is the work of the individual Christian. For, according to Trent, God’s grace does all the work. However, Trent does condemn “faith alone,” but what it means is mere intellectual assent without allowing God’s grace to be manifested in one’s actions and communion with the Church. This is why Trent also condemns justification by works."

I am convinced that the typical “Council of Trent” rant found on anti-Catholic websites is the Protestant equivalent of the secular urban legend that everyone prior to Columbus believed in a flat earth."

 

[ChristopherK]

You won't find where "Mary" says to worship HER on a Catholic site because it is a heresy. But you can find it on sites written by anti-Catholic bigots. You have falsely accused Catholics of committing a heresy over your preconceived notion.

Dude...I pulled up the RCC 1995 Catechism showing otherwise...It's like 1-2 pages back.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Peace be with you.

Mary is the Mother of God. This is an Absolute Fact.

Mary is in Heaven and intercedes before Jesus Christ, Her Son for All Her Children which God has given Her. This is an Absolute Fact.

Trust me, I know such things.

My opinion is that people who talk about faith and Salvation as a free gift from God and that works are not necessary for Salvation will not survive Judgment.

Such people are basically saying your actions and conduct in life do not matter in relation to your Salvation. Even some normal people who are not Christians understand this stupid and foolish fallacy.

I am 100% certain such people will be condemned when your whole life is dissected and put under the microscope by God during your Judgment.

The reasoning for such people being condemned is that such people have basically nullified the purpose of the Christian faith which Jesus Christ founded which is to save sinners from condemnation through repentance and reformation of their sinful lives to the life that God has Willed for them.

Such people do not desire to do the Will of God and therefore take shortcuts thinking and believing their presumptuous faith will save them, not knowing what Judgment and Scrutiny by Almighty God means.

Trust me when I tell you this before it is too late.


Peter, here states that the righteous one is barely saved:

1 Peter 4 Modern English Version (MEV)
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God, and if it begins first with us, what shall the end be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And

“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

19 So then, let those who suffer according to the will of God entrust their souls to a faithful Creator, while continuing to do good.


What is the difference between the righteous and the ungodly and sinner? Is it not in their deeds? Righteous people act like this, ungodly people and sinners act like that.


Here Luke states Simon Peter was a sinner:

Luke 5 Modern English Version (MEV)
8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord.”


So Simon Peter was no longer a sinner because He suffered doing the will of God while continually doing good. Faith is confined in his deeds. Simon Peter was no longer the same person as he was before not because he says so but because of his deeds.


I would say that the Catholic faith is the most abundant and richest out of all the Christian faiths because the Catholic faith has the most arsenal of spiritual weapons ranging from the Holy Scripture, to the Holy Sacrements, to Mary the Mother of God and the Holy Rosary, to the Holy Patron Saints, to the Holy Books of the Saints, to all the Congregation of the faith which consists of all the faithful in all positions of the Church, all created and designed to assist the sinner to fight against the forces of darkness who wills your condemnation when applied with prudence, fortitude, fear of God, patience, perverence, faith, hope, kindness, love, humility, temperance, diligence, purity, chastity, generosity, charity in God who has willed to share His Blessed Mother with us for our Salvation.

Do not be presumptuous thinking you know the Holy Scriptures. From what I can see and gather, a lot of interpretations are merely opinions of self-willed sinners who think and believe their opinions and interpretations of the Holy Scripture are actually the Word of God.

God bless you.

I found your post quite amusing, overall. Your "facts" are only "facts" because your Church has decided that they are "facts" and you believe what your Church tells you. At best, they are unprovable theories.

 

[Major1]

Unformed faith, that is, faith formed without charity, is a dead faith. Faith formed by charity is the kind of faith you want. The question is, what sense of faith did the reformers use?


Unformed faith alone is not found anywhere in Scriptures. See James 2:24.

If good works are not necessary for salvation, then a large proportion of Bible verses are totally useless. For instance, St. Peter’s admonition to “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith…”

If one does not have to resist the devil to be saved, then such an admonition on St. Peter’s part is useless; and not only useless, but cruel, since he is unnecessarily putting a difficult responsibility on his followers. The same would apply to any passage in .the Bible that enjoins watchfulness, perseverance, fortitude, avoidance of sin, praying to be delivered from temptation, and many other like virtues and actions. Protestants often remind us that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (2 Tim. 3:16) Since all of it is profitable, then there can be no useless verses.

WORKS: watchfulness, perseverance, fortitude, avoidance of sin, praying to be delivered from temptation, and many other like virtues and actions.

Francis Beckwith, former President of the Evangelical Theological Society:

"Then I read the Council of Trent, which some Protestant friends had suggested I do. What I found was shocking. I found a document that had been nearly universally misrepresented by many Protestants, including some friends.

I do not believe, however, that the misrepresentation is the result of purposeful deception. But rather, it is the result of reading Trent with Protestant assumptions and without a charitable disposition.

For example, Trent talks about the four causes of justification, which correspond somewhat to Aristotle’s four causes. None of these causes is the work of the individual Christian. For, according to Trent, God’s grace does all the work. However, Trent does condemn “faith alone,” but what it means is mere intellectual assent without allowing God’s grace to be manifested in one’s actions and communion with the Church. This is why Trent also condemns justification by works."

I am convinced that the typical “Council of Trent” rant found on anti-Catholic websites is the Protestant equivalent of the secular urban legend that everyone prior to Columbus believed in a flat earth."

I am not sure where or how you came up with the word "UNFORMED".

James 2:24 which you say we should read says...........
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only".

FAITH is the root of our salvation. That root then produces the kind of fruit (works) that the root itself actually is. IF you have a living faith there will be works in your life and if not then you are like a dead body in a morgue.

We as Christians should want to do good works because we are saved and not to be saved. Good works are a byproduct of salvation and NOT A MEANS TO SALVATION.

That is what James was saying to us.

 

[Major1]

That is a bad translation, by the way. The Catholic Church does not cite by page numbers, it cites by paragraphs numbers. So if you see page numbers you likely have a bad source.

Here is the exact paragraph in question, from the website of the Church Herself. Please click on the link to verify the text for yourself.

Lumen gentium

65. But while in the most holy Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she is without spot or wrinkle, the followers of Christ still strive to increase in holiness by conquering sin.(300) And so they turn their eyes to Mary who shines forth to the whole community of the elect as the model of virtues. Piously meditating on her and contemplating her in the light of the Word made man, the Church with reverence enters more intimately into the great mystery of the Incarnation and becomes more and more like her Spouse. For Mary, who since her entry into salvation history unites in herself and re-echoes the greatest teachings of the faith as she is proclaimed and venerated, calls the faithful to her Son and His sacrifice and to the love of the Father. Seeking after the glory of Christ, the Church becomes more like her exalted Type, and continually progresses in faith, hope and charity, seeking and doing the will of God in all things. Hence the Church, in her apostolic work also, justly looks to her, who, conceived of the Holy Spirit, brought forth Christ, who was born of the Virgin that through the Church He may be born and may increase in the hearts of the faithful also. The Virgin in her own life lived an example of that maternal love, by which it behooves that all should be animated who cooperate in the apostolic mission of the Church for the regeneration of men.

The comment you highlited proves the point perfectly and thanks for the clarification.

"For Mary, who since her entry into salvation history unites in herself and re-echoes the greatest teachings of the faith as she is proclaimed and venerated, calls the faithful to her Son and His sacrifice and to the love of the Father."

THAT my dear friend is the problem. The RCC says that ........
"For Mary, who since her entry into salvation history unites ......".

That comment is wholly and completely a Catholic Traditional teaching AND IS NOT FOUND ANYWHERE IN THE SCRIPTURES. The idea that ........"calls the faithful to her Son and His sacrifice and to the love of the Father" is a false teaching which can not be verified by the Scriptures.

That is and has been by point from the beginning. Mary in NO WAY entered into the plan of salvation.
There are NO Scriptures which even hint at such a thought.

If you choose to follow the RCC false teachings, that is your choice. Again, I am not the enemy or your judge in any way. All I am saying is that the RCC is NOT Biblical and as you just posted, makes up its own doctrine to suit its thinking.

 

[FenderTL5]

I am not sure where or how you came up with the word "UNFORMED".

James 2:24 which you say we should read says...........
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only".

FAITH is the root of our salvation. That root then produces the kind of fruit (works) that the root itself actually is. IF you have a living faith there will be works in your life and if not then you are like a dead body in a morgue.

We as Christians should want to do good works because we are saved and not to be saved. Good works are a byproduct of salvation and NOT A MEANS TO SALVATION.

That is what James was saying to us.

I generally stay out of the protestant catholic debates unless our church is dragged into the conversation. I stopped in, merely curious to see if the protestants were still trying to convince the Catholics that they worshiped Mary.

However, I do have a question for you here.
I thought justification (in your understanding) is the moment in which God declares you 'not guilty' of Adam's sin, which would be 'being saved'. This makes sanctification the process for growing more Christ-like or holy.
However, what you have just said would seem to flip-the-script.
Wouldn't James 2:24 have to replace the word "justified" with "sanctified" in order to be consistent within your understanding and what you just said?

 

[Major1]

I did not believe the opposite, but thank you for clarifying, regardless.


Amen.

I am familiar with the Catechism and with Trent, and they are in agreement with what I wrote. You seem to think that if one must do anything at all to receive or to hold onto a gift (such as obeying the commandments) then the gift is no longer a gift. But let me ask you this, if I gave you a check for one million dollars, does the fact that you have to go to the bank and cash the check mean that it is no longer a gift?

Now for the particulars, certainly the Catholic Church teaches that one must perform good works (the primary one of which is obeying the commandments) to remain in a state of grace. This is taught in Scripture at many places. For example:

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

. . .​

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

. . .

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

But the fact that one must obey the commandments does not negate the fact that salvation is a gift from God. Going back to my analogy above, "obeying the commandments" is analogous to "going to the bank and cashing the check." The fact that you have to do something to receive a gift, does not change the fact that it is a gift.

Much of the same can be said for baptism. It is the means by which the Lord has chosen to apply the merits of his work on the cross to those whom he chooses. That is why he said “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" and why St. Peter said "Baptism . . . now saves you". And the Catholic Church certainly does not teach that Baptism is something that we earn or deserve:

Paul III Council of Trent-6

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.

For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.​

Yes, I am very well aware of that. I addressed your main objection above, but you can look at these Scriptures, for example, to see that the doctrine has support in Scripture.

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

"For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
​

You can begin with the verses I provided you above.

There are also many others that you can look at. For example:

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.

. . .

And you will be hated of all men for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

. . .

For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.

. . .

I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

​

I am sorry but your post and questions are simply too long for me to wander through and come up with answers. If you would like to ask ONE thing at a time I would be glad to respond as I will with your example of a check for a million dollars.

You see, a check would not be a gift now would it. It is a piece of paper. Then to the so called gift I would have to do something to actually receive it.....go to the bank. That my dear friend is WORKS for the gift.

Ephesians 2:8.....
"For by grace are you saved through faith, it is a gift of God, NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST".

 

[Major1]

I generally stay out of the protestant catholic debates unless our church is dragged into the conversation. I stopped in, merely curious to see if the protestants were still trying to convince the Catholics that they worshiped Mary.

However, I do have a question for you here.
I thought justification (in your understanding) is the moment in which God declares you 'not guilty' of Adam's sin, which would be 'being saved'. This makes sanctification the process for growing more Christ-like or holy.
However, what you have just said would seem to flip-the-script.
Wouldn't James 2:24 have to replace the word "justified" with "sanctified" in order to be consistent within your understanding and what you just said?

Thank you for your comment. I do not see what you are saying to be correct. I did not flip or change anything IMO.

A short definition of justification is "the act of making someone right with God."
Justification takes place when God declares those who place their faith in Christ to be righteous.

2 Corth 5:21 says........
"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

In other words, Jesus became our substitute on the cross so that we could be made "just" or right with God. We were guilty, but God has declared us righteous.

Then in Rom. 3:22-24 we see that..........
"the righteousness of God [comes] through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

Our justification comes to us freely, because of the price that Jesus paid on our behalf. God extends this grace to sinners and is "just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus".

Theologians who know a lot more that I do speak of three distinct types of justification—
positional, progressive, and perfective. Positional justification is the "legal standing" we have been granted in Christ. It's what the verses above concern: we are justified when we trust in Christ. From that moment on, God sees us as righteous.

Progressive justification or sanctification is the term YOU uses which is acceptable, is the ongoing process of being made just by the Lord.

Proverbs 4:18.............
"But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until full day".

It involves a believer becoming more and more like Christ. This is not something we do, but something He does. As I said in the earlier post.......... We perform good works as He empowers us because He saved us we love Him and want to do good things for Him out of love for Him. That is clearly seen in Ephesians 2:10; 2 Corinthians 9:8.

Perfective justification is the final step. The progressive process catches up with the positional decree, and the believer is made righteous in practice as well as in name. This sinless perfection will be ours when we enter eternity with the Lord. At that time, our justification will be complete, and we will dwell with Him forever apart from sin.

Thanks for asking!

 

[Major1]

I don't reply to multiple topic rants that would take 5 pages to answer, which would fall on deaf ears anyway. One at a time, please, not 7 topics. Then I will take you seriously.

That comes from someone who is not able to do the same thing! Very interesting and telling as well.

 

[FenderTL5]

Thank you for your comment. I do not see what you are saying to be correct. I did not flip or change anything IMO.

A short definition of justification is "the act of making someone right with God."
Justification takes place when God declares those who place their faith in Christ to be righteous.

2 Corth 5:21 says........
"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

In other words, Jesus became our substitute on the cross so that we could be made "just" or right with God. We were guilty, but God has declared us righteous.

Then in Rom. 3:22-24 we see that..........
"the righteousness of God [comes] through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

Our justification comes to us freely, because of the price that Jesus paid on our behalf. God extends this grace to sinners and is "just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus".

Theologians who know a lot more that I do speak of three distinct types of justification—
positional, progressive, and perfective. Positional justification is the "legal standing" we have been granted in Christ. It's what the verses above concern: we are justified when we trust in Christ. From that moment on, God sees us as righteous.

Progressive justification or sanctification is the term YOU uses which is acceptable, is the ongoing process of being made just by the Lord.

Proverbs 4:18.............
"But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until full day".

It involves a believer becoming more and more like Christ. This is not something we do, but something He does. As I said in the earlier post.......... We perform good works as He empowers us because He saved us we love Him and want to do good things for Him out of love for Him. That is clearly seen in Ephesians 2:10; 2 Corinthians 9:8.

Perfective justification is the final step. The progressive process catches up with the positional decree, and the believer is made righteous in practice as well as in name. This sinless perfection will be ours when we enter eternity with the Lord. At that time, our justification will be complete, and we will dwell with Him forever apart from sin.

Thanks for asking!

Thank you for your clarification concerning your belief.
I suppose I was unaware that there had been an abandonment of the justification/sanctification paradigm in favor of a triple view of justification (or whatever the teaching being called). So sanctification is just MY word, huh? whod'a'thunk'it?