Is Mary God?

[kepha31]

Tradition is not in and of itself wrong. However, it is wrong and unacceptable when it opposes the Word of God as does Catholic teaching.

That's an empty opinion.

In the early church good tradition was the principle means of Christian instruction. False tradition ends up as heresy or apostasy.

False traditions were quickly identified. That's why the heretic Arius lost out, he had no tradition to back him up.

We as Christians always need to sit under the preaching and teaching of the Word of God, but when the content conflicts with the Scriptures, the teaching or traditions of men must be rejected for the certain truth of the Bible.

I agree. There are no Catholic "traditions of men" nor are there any Traditions that conflict with scripture. Customs and rubrics have nothing to do with Tradition. "Sola scriptura" contributes to a mindset that is unbiblically hostile to Tradition. The Bible tells us there are bad traditions we are to avoid, but also tells us of good Traditions we must follow. Lumping all traditions as bad is simply unbiblical.

 

[kepha31]

Do you think the New Testament had already been penciled in ''in the beginning'' ? I'd say the first was last and the last was first in a philosophical and Jesus kinda way ..
We know the entire Bible is the Word of God .

The Word of God is not confined to the Written Word alone. Nowhere in the Bible, and it's found about 200 times, can you find "Word of God" to mean the written word alone. It's always the spoken word. Do a Bible search "Word of God" and see for yourself.

 

[4x4toy]

The Word of God is not confined to the Written Word alone. Nowhere in the Bible, and it's found about 200 times, can you find "Word of God" to mean the written word alone. It's always the spoken word. Do a Bible search "Word of God" and see for yourself.

Jesus is the Word of God

 

[4x4toy]

The debates over what books belonging in the Bible was not finalized until the Council of Carthage in 397 AD. The Holy Spirit guided Catholic bishops in their discernments of the canon of the Bible. They didn't make them inspired, they already were inspired. Inspiration is not the same as canonization.

If God can use a donkey to speak to a man then he can use a man and academia to accomplish his will . If you don't mind I'll give glory to God , you give it to your church and men .

 

[ChristopherK]

The RCC won't come outright and say that she's a god, but they use the word 'veneration'. She is labeled as a mediator between Roman Catholics and God. However, Scripture says that Jesus Christ is our Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5).

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," - 1 Tim. 2:5

 

[4x4toy]

Are you suggesting Jesus didn't follow the Traditions as a faithful Jew? He was never circumcised? He didn't go to Jerusalem with His mother for the annual Passover? Never celebrated Rosh Hashana or Yom Kipper or any of the other Jewish feasts?
Jesus is the one who made Peter the first Pope, and Peter as spokesman/leader for all the Apostles is all over the NT, you just can't see the obvious.

LOL, Jesus was a Jew and fulfilled all things but I don't think he believed or taught purgatory, speaking or praying to the dead or that we would ever eat anything like his literal flesh and blood or any other of that crazy stuff not found in the Word . I don't even believe Peter was special compared to Jesus except that he walked and learned from Jesus . IMO Peter was not sent to the gentiles or to head the RCC but to Jesus lost sheep of Israel , the Jews , Paul was sent to the gentiles .. The bones of Simon Bar Jonas were found in an ossuary in Jerusalem by a small Catholic expedition in the 50's . The Pope said to keep it quiet for now ..

 

[kepha31]

If God can use a donkey to speak to a man then he can use a man and academia to accomplish his will . If you don't mind I'll give glory to God , you give it to your church and men .

It was the Church and men under the superintendence of the Holy Spirit that canonized the inspired books. That's giving glory to God, not taking it away.

 

[4x4toy]

The RCC won't come outright and say that she's a god, but they use the word 'veneration'. She is labeled as a mediator between Roman Catholics and God. However, Scripture says that Jesus Christ is our Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5).

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," - 1 Tim. 2:5

It was the Church and men under the superintendence of the Holy Spirit that canonized the inspired books. That's giving glory to God, not taking it away.

LOL, Yeah in your world and if you and they glory in it then you have received your reward among men . So feel free to stop pushing that stuff anytime, I ain't buying

 

[kepha31]

LOL, Jesus was a Jew and fulfilled all things but I don't think he believed or taught purgatory, speaking or praying to the dead or that we would ever eat anything like his literal flesh and blood or any other of that crazy stuff not found in the Word . I don't even believe Peter was special compared to Jesus except that he walked and learned from Jesus . IMO Peter was not sent to the gentiles or to head the RCC but to Jesus lost sheep of Israel , the Jews , Paul was sent to the gentiles .. The bones of Simon Bar Jonas were found in an ossuary in Jerusalem by a small Catholic expedition in the 50's . The Pope said to keep it quiet for now ..

I don't reply to sadistic rants with multiple topics.

 

[ChristopherK]

It was the Church and men under the superintendence of the Holy Spirit that canonized the inspired books. That's giving glory to God, not taking it away.

They canonized the books which Jesus Christ made reference (OT books), and that were written by the apostles or their scribes. This was so the ministry/testimony of Jesus Christ would not be corrupted and remain accurate. The issue w/ the RCC is that they have supplemented the simplicity of scripture with unbiblical traditions that replace salvation by grace through faith with additional works. They've added to God's Word and that is an accursed thing to do.

 

[kepha31]

The RCC won't come outright and say that she's a god, but they use the word 'veneration'. She is labeled as a mediator between Roman Catholics and God.

. Mary can't do anything without God. But we honor her because God honored her first. You are a mediator every time you pray for someone. That makes you a subordinate mediator the same as Mary is.

However, Scripture says that Jesus Christ is our Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5).
"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," - 1 Tim. 2:5

The REASON Christ Jesus is one mediator between God and men is because He is the only one who is BOTH. Mary is 100% HUMAN, so for her to take in His role would be IMPOSSIBLE, as well as heretical.

"Co" in co-redeemer, co-Mediatrix, etc. is Collaborator Mary "assisted" in our redemption and she assist in our mediation with Christ.

This context does not give Mary equal status with Christ, or usurp Christ in anyway. She, rather, merely cooperated and collaborated with Christ.

In a sense we, too, are co-mediators every time we pray for someone. We are offering intercession/mediation for our friend when we pray for them. This does not make us God or equal with God, it only means that we are cooperating with the economy of God when he asked us to be a family and pray for each other.

In terms of Mary as co-redeemer, she did in fact, cooperate in the redemption. When she made her fiat to accept God's will for her to bear the Christ Child she was cooperating in the redemption of mankind for it was through her that the Redeemer came into the world.

The solution to problems like this is not suppression but education. "co" just simply does NOT mean "equal to".

As for Judas, no he was NOT co-redeemer. Jesus could have been crucified without Judas' help. Jesus could have been arrested at any time whenever he was in public. In fact, Jesus mentions this in the Garden when he was arrested. Judas happened to be the instrument of Jesus' arrest, but was not necessary for Jesus' arrest. This is different than with Mary...

Mary's role was not incidental but REQUIRED. Jesus, to be incarnated, HAD to be born of a woman, otherwise he would not be human and thus could not be the redeemer.

Mary's collaboration was required; Judas' participation was not, but was incidental.

At this time the theory of co-redeemer is not Church dogma, and is not binding for belief by the faithful. But the concept should not wrinkle our shirts if we understand the nature of her role in the incarnation and the true meaning of "co".

 

[4x4toy]

The RCC won't come outright and say that she's a god, but they use the word 'veneration'. She is labeled as a mediator between Roman Catholics and God. However, Scripture says that Jesus Christ is our Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5).

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," - 1 Tim. 2:5

Agree, they even got statues they spend time with and adore, I refuse to even look at a so-called pictures of Jesus because that ain't what he looked like much less those of the ''saints'' .. I do have a small 1 1/4 inch neckless with a cross made with a leather strand and small real iron nails some where ..

 

[ChristopherK]

THAT IS A LIE.
That has been a Catholic doctrine before there was a Bible.

967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

 

[ChristopherK]

THAT IS A LIE.
That has been a Catholic doctrine before there was a Bible.

Catholic meaning universal Church. Not the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Major1]

That's an empty opinion.
False traditions were quickly identified. That's why the heretic Arius lost out, he had no tradition to back him up.


I agree. There are no Catholic "traditions of men" nor are there any Traditions that conflict with scripture. Customs and rubrics have nothing to do with Tradition. "Sola scriptura" contributes to a mindset that is unbiblically hostile to Tradition. The Bible tells us there are bad traditions we are to avoid, but also tells us of good Traditions we must follow. Lumping all traditions as bad is simply unbiblical.

We can go back and forth on this subject all day long. Obviously you are as equally entrenched in your Catholic faith as I am in the Protestant faith.

The one and only thing that matters here is that we acknowledge that Jesus Christ and Him alone is responsible for our eternal salvation.

While it is clearly evident that Scripture argues for its own authority, it is also abundantly clear that Scripture nowhere argues for “authoritative tradition equal with Scripture.” That is what we are talking about but the bottom line truth In fact, is that the New Testament has more to say against traditions than it does in favor of tradition.

You are free to accept that observation or reject it but if you will take the time to study and investigate that comment I am positive you will find it to be true.

Now you have been and the The Roman Catholic Church argues that Scripture was given to men by the Church and therefore the Church has equal or greater authority to it. However, even among the Roman Catholic Church’s writings (from the First Vatican Council), you will find the acknowledgment that the Church councils that determined which books were to be considered the Word of God did nothing but recognize what the Holy Spirit had already made evident.

That is, the Church did not “give” Scriptures to men, but simply “recognized” what God, through the Holy Spirit, had already given. As A. A. Hodge states, when a peasant recognizes a prince and is able to call him by name, it does not give him the right to rule over the kingdom. In like fashion, a church council recognizing which books were God-breathed and possessed the traits of a God-inspired book, does not give the church council equal authority with those books.

God bless you my friend and I hope that you will consider these comments before rejecting them out of hand.

 

[Major1]

They canonized the books which Jesus Christ made reference (OT books), and that were written by the apostles or their scribes. This was so the ministry/testimony of Jesus Christ would not be corrupted and remain accurate. The issue w/ the RCC is that they have supplemented the simplicity of scripture with unbiblical traditions that replace salvation by grace through faith with additional works. They've added to God's Word and that is an accursed thing to do.

Agreed. Some of those additions are.........

1).
Mary was a perpetual virgin after the birth of Jesus.
That is no where stated or suggested in the Scriptures.

2).
Prayers for the dead.
Nowhere to be found in the Scriptures.

3).
Praying to Mary & Saints.
Nowhere to be found in the Scriptures.

4).
Worship of icons and statue approved.
Not found in the Scriptures and in fact the 2nd Commandment specifically prohibits it.

Just a few of the many things that are Catholic doctrine and not found anywhere in the Scriptures.

 

[4x4toy]

I don't reply to sadistic rants with multiple topics.

Yet you post big long lifeless posts as if you're doing term papers shooting for a C+ for effort

 

[Major1]

. Mary can't do anything without God. But we honor her because God honored her first. You are a mediator every time you pray for someone. That makes you a subordinate mediator the same as Mary is.
The REASON Christ Jesus is one mediator between God and men is because He is the only one who is BOTH. Mary is 100% HUMAN, so for her to take in His role would be IMPOSSIBLE, as well as heretical.

"Co" in co-redeemer, co-Mediatrix, etc. is Collaborator Mary "assisted" in our redemption and she assist in our mediation with Christ.

This context does not give Mary equal status with Christ, or usurp Christ in anyway. She, rather, merely cooperated and collaborated with Christ.

In a sense we, too, are co-mediators every time we pray for someone. We are offering intercession/mediation for our friend when we pray for them. This does not make us God or equal with God, it only means that we are cooperating with the economy of God when he asked us to be a family and pray for each other.

In terms of Mary as co-redeemer, she did in fact, cooperate in the redemption. When she made her fiat to accept God's will for her to bear the Christ Child she was cooperating in the redemption of mankind for it was through her that the Redeemer came into the world.

The solution to problems like this is not suppression but education. "co" just simply does NOT mean "equal to".

As for Judas, no he was NOT co-redeemer. Jesus could have been crucified without Judas' help. Jesus could have been arrested at any time whenever he was in public. In fact, Jesus mentions this in the Garden when he was arrested. Judas happened to be the instrument of Jesus' arrest, but was not necessary for Jesus' arrest. This is different than with Mary...

Mary's role was not incidental but REQUIRED. Jesus, to be incarnated, HAD to be born of a woman, otherwise he would not be human and thus could not be the redeemer.

Mary's collaboration was required; Judas' participation was not, but was incidental.

At this time the theory of co-redeemer is not Church dogma, and is not binding for belief by the faithful. But the concept should not wrinkle our shirts if we understand the nature of her role in the incarnation and the true meaning of "co".

You said......"That was Catholic doctrine before there was a Bible".

It would seem unnecessary for the Catholic Church and you in particular, to make the boastful claim of giving the Bible to the world when both it and so-called Protestantism accept the Bible as a revelation from God.

It is clear However, that the claim is an attempt to weaken the Bible as the sole authority and to replace it with your man-made church. If it is true that we can accept the Bible only on the basis of the Catholic Church, doesn't that make the Catholic Church superior to the Bible?
BOOM-THERE IT IS!!!!!

This is exactly what Catholic officials want men to believe. Their only problem is that their doctrine comes from their own human reasoning rather than from God. Their logic is a classic example of their "circular reasoning." They try to prove the Bible by the church (can accept the Bible only on the basis of the Catholic Church) and prove the church by the Bible ("has ever grounded her doctrines upon it").

Such is absurd reasoning which proves nothing. Either the New Testament is the sole authority or it is not. If it is the New Testament, it cannot be the church, and if it is the church, it cannot be the New Testament.

 

[Major1]

Are you suggesting Jesus didn't follow the Traditions as a faithful Jew? He was never circumcised? He didn't go to Jerusalem with His mother for the annual Passover? Never celebrated Rosh Hashana or Yom Kipper or any of the other Jewish feasts?
Jesus is the one who made Peter the first Pope, and Peter as spokesman/leader for all the Apostles is all over the NT, you just can't see the obvious.

I did not suggest any of the things you posted. I simply tried to show and explain to you that your understanding of the word "Tradition" as you were trying to use was not correct.

 

[4x4toy]

Kepha , please know that I don't hate Catholics but I'm at least wary .. I had a Catholic brother from Philadelphia who I didn't know until he arrived as my house guest for 3 or 4 days once . He was all Jesus and told me on his death bed in the hospital with heart trouble that God made him a new creation and instead of dying , Jesus supernaturally grew him a new big artery and he was healed and healthy as he ever was . We visited and invited people to our baptist revival door to door and he never mentioned anything catholic at all, like I said he was all Jesus and on fire .. A couple more catholics I run into often at different churches were tongue talking pentecostal also . I've donated to catholic relief services for foreign disasters . There are direct warnings in the Bible though that I can't over look is all we're saying ..
Peace Bro ..Many Protestant churches have problems . We keep our eye on Jesus and his Word, that is the narrow path friend ..