Is Mary a source of Holiness?

[Uphill Battle]

Pope Pius XII accurately reflected the Church’s view of the Virgin Mary when the Pope stood up to give this following Pontifical prayer, and I quote: “Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O immaculate mother of Jesus and our mother, Mary we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature from the moment of conception until the day on which your assumption into heaven He crowned you Queen of the Universe. O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, O Mary, cover our aching womb, convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred. Sweeten harshness. Safeguard the flower of purity. Protect the holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers and that the nations are members of one family. Receive, O sweet mother, our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us on that day, happy with you that we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars, you are beautiful, O Mary, you are glory , O Mary, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people,” end quote.


I highlighted what I find disturbing about this statement.

You need to cite the soure, however.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

Jesus coming to us through the virgin birth is not in scripture? Really?

That is not what I mean and you know it. Grace is not given to us by Mary. She is not in heaven doling it out. She doesn't decide that. We don't come to the Son through the mother. That is what the Catholic church teaches. I'm on to the C.C. and I know what's true and what's not. I'm not going to argue though. You're going to believe what you want and I'll believe the truth. Yeah, I did just say that.

 

[Benedicta00]

So explain this to me please..

why don't you just admit to us all who you really are?

We have been through this with you 10,000 time already and the answer never changes.

Devotions are devotion and doctrine are doctrine. It's a sweet pious belief, not doctrine, that Mary is special to us because God chose to come to us through her and devotion to her is a sure fire way to grow in holiness, because she is who brought us the holy one- brought as in said yes to God who did all the work by the power of the Holy Spirit.

We in no way feel Mary is our savior or that she's divine. So please, for the love of everything holy in the universe, please... how many years has it been- please give it up... Catholics don't worship Mary, we just don't.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

Pope Pius XII accurately reflected the Church’s view of the Virgin Mary when the Pope stood up to give this following Pontifical prayer, and I quote: “Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O immaculate mother of Jesus and our mother, Mary we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature from the moment of conception until the day on which your assumption into heaven He crowned you Queen of the Universe. O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, O Mary, cover our aching womb, convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred. Sweeten harshness. Safeguard the flower of purity. Protect the holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers and that the nations are members of one family. Receive, O sweet mother, our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us on that day, happy with you that we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars, you are beautiful, O Mary, you are glory , O Mary, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people,” end quote.


I highlighted what I find disturbing about this statement.

You need to cite the soure, however.

It's interesting to note that the Babylonians I believe it was had a Queen of Heaven. Hmmm. I'm not trying to make any comparisions but that's part of paganisim. Again don't twist my words. I'm not accusing anyone, just pointing out a historical fact. So, chill out there okay?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin

Reve 3:20 Behold! I stand upon the door and I am knocking. If ever Anyone should be hearing of the sound of Me, and should be up-opening the door, I shall be entering toward him and I shall be dining with him and he with Me. 21 The One conquering I shall be giving to him to be seated with Me, in the throne of Me, as also I conquer and am seated with the Father of Me in the throne of Him.

 

[Benedicta00]

Pope Pius XII accurately reflected the Church’s view of the Virgin Mary when the Pope stood up to give this following Pontifical prayer, and I quote: “Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O immaculate mother of Jesus and our mother, Mary we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature from the moment of conception until the day on which your assumption into heaven He crowned you Queen of the Universe. O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, O Mary, cover our aching womb, convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred. Sweeten harshness. Safeguard the flower of purity. Protect the holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers and that the nations are members of one family. Receive, O sweet mother, our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us on that day, happy with you that we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars, you are beautiful, O Mary, you are glory , O Mary, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people,” end quote.


I highlighted what I find disturbing about this statement.

You need to cite the soure, however.

Don't fall pray to paranoia.
It's just a prayer which is a personal devotion- none of this is dogmatic. So don't overreact.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Don't fall pray to paranoia.
It's just a prayer which is a personal devotion- none of this is dogmatic. So don't overreact.

dogmatic or not, there is theological error in this prayer! So it's not the belief of the entire RCC, but it is personal devotion of it's leader.

 

[Benedicta00]

That is not what I mean and you know it. Grace is not given to us by Mary. She is not in heaven doling it out. She doesn't decide that. We don't come to the Son through the mother. That is what the Catholic church teaches. I'm on to the C.C. and I know what's true and what's not. I'm not going to argue though. You're going to believe what you want and I'll believe the truth. Yeah, I did just say that.

but it's what we mean and you obvioulsy don't know that...

We know Mary is not the author of grace... like, how many times do we have to say this?

 

[IamAdopted]

Pope Pius XII accurately reflected the Church’s view of the Virgin Mary when the Pope stood up to give this following Pontifical prayer, and I quote: “Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O immaculate mother of Jesus and our mother, Mary we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature from the moment of conception until the day on which your assumption into heaven He crowned you Queen of the Universe. O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, O Mary, cover our aching womb, convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred. Sweeten harshness. Safeguard the flower of purity. Protect the holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers and that the nations are members of one family. Receive, O sweet mother, our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us on that day, happy with you that we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars, you are beautiful, O Mary, you are glory , O Mary, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people,” end quote.


I highlighted what I find disturbing about this statement.

You need to cite the soure, however.

Here is a web site.. You can read more here..http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marye6.htm

 

[Benedicta00]

dogmatic or not, there is theological error in this prayer! So it's not the belief of the entire RCC, but it is personal devotion of it's leader.

what the errors?

That we believe God puts in her hands his grace to give to us?

Read John 2- Did Mary obtain a miracle (grace) from Jesus or not?

And I want a yes or no...

 

[FrauleinElsa]

Catholics don't worship Mary, we just don't.

Are you sure? It sure looks like it to us Protestants. In my opinion you need to refresh your memory on what worship is. The definintion of worship is homage and reverence. Do you not pay her homage and reverence? I think this is a legitimate question and I'm only asking to make you think. Not to be a ninnyhammer or rude. I'm just asking an honest question. Is that not what you do?

 

[Benedicta00]

Here is a web site.. You can read more here..http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marye6.htm

again, you are successful as usual at confusing everyone to the truth about what catholics believe.

You know as well as i do that these prayers... which i must expose- you NEVER cite official documents of catholic teaching, always devotional material because YOU KNOW it will confuse everyone...

anyway, you know what is said in the private devotions of others is figurative talk and flowery speech and no one literally believes Mary is the author of grace.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

but it's what we mean and you obvioulsy don't know that...

We know Mary is not the author of grace... like, how many times do we have to say this?

Yeah, you say that but why does the C.C. teach this?

3) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS 24, 1891, 196.
... it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of all grace which the Lord brought us--for 'grace and truth came through Jesus Christ' [Jn 1.17]--nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

what the errors?

That we believe God puts in her hands his grace to give to us?

Read John 2- Did Mary obtain a miracle (grace) from Jesus or not?

And I want a yes or no...

Hi. She wasn't given the Power that the Disciples of Jesus were given.

(Young) Luke 10:19 lo, I give to you the authority to tread upon serpents/ofewn and scorpions, and on all the power of the enemy, and nothing by any means shall hurt you;

Matt 23:33 `Serpents/ofeiV! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

 

[Uphill Battle]

what the errors?

That we believe God puts in her hands his grace to give to us?

Read John 2- Did Mary obtain a miracle (grace) from Jesus or not?

And I want a yes or no...

yes.

but asking for a simple yes or no answer belies the truth behind the matter.

conqueress of evil and death is theological error.

the one whom converts the wicked, is theological error.

Attributing Mary to BE glory, is theological error.

 

[Benedicta00]

Are you sure?

Don't you think I would know if i worshipped Mary?

It sure looks like it to us Protestants.

thanks to the very calculated handiwork of IIA or bright candle, whichever name is going by these days...

You've been duped. You have been given devotional material that is figurative in nature and not literal in meaning. And are NOT Catholic teaching either. Just speculative pious beliefs of others who have a love for Mary.

In my opinion you need to refresh your memory on what worship is.

It's not always praying to, or honoring others.

The definintion of worship is homage and reverence.

I disagree. It's who is our God that we follow and give all our assent to. That we believe in.

Do you not pay her homage and reverence?

her and everyone else.. my husband, my parents...

I think this is a legitimate question and I'm only asking to make you think

.

You are the one who need some food for thought. I not going to be convicted of idol worship by your narrow definition of what it is... sorry but i know who I worship and it would behoove you to try and tell me that it isn't God but Mary...

Not to be a ninnyhammer or rude. I'm just asking an honest question. Is that not what you do?

No its not true and I have to try and tell myself that you just have no clue how drastically different we see things.

You ave made up your own criteria that you gauge everything and it's highly subjective and not at all objective.

I'm sorry but you cant convict me off of your lack of understanding Catholicism properly and your own interpretation of worship.

 

[lionroar0]

3) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS 24, 1891, 196.
... it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of all grace which the Lord brought us--for 'grace and truth came through Jesus Christ' [Jn 1.17]--nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother.

And of course people have taken this quote out of context. To make it mean something it does not.

It merely states that Jesus was born of Mary. Jesus who is the source grace.

There is nothing that is imparted to us with out Mary, because Mary gave birth to Jesus who imparts grace.

Had Mary not given birth to Jesus we would have no grace.

Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

yes.

but asking for a simple yes or no answer belies the truth behind the matter.

conqueress of evil and death is theological error.

the one whom converts the wicked, is theological error.

Attributing Mary to BE glory, is theological error.

Psalms 8:5 For You have made him a little lower than the messengers, And You have crowned Him with glory and honor.

Revelation 7:12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, [Be] to our God forever and ever. Amen."

 

[Benedicta00]

yes.

So that is where that theological view comes from- Mary goes to God and obtains grace from him, for us just like she did in the case of the wedding party at canon.

but asking for a simple yes or no answer belies the truth behind the matter.

which is what? Mary goes to Christ with our needs.. it's in the bible Uphill...

conqueress of evil and death is theological error.

Did she or did she not spoil the devils plan when she said yes?

the one whom converts the wicked, is theological error.

I can convert the wicked through prayer, cant I? We all can and we believe Mary can too through her prayers for the wicked.

Attributing Mary to BE glory, is theological error.

We're all going to be glory one day, aren't we?

again- take it figurtively, not literally.

 

[Benedicta00]

Yeah, you say that but why does the C.C. teach this?

3) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS 24, 1891, 196.
... it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of all grace which the Lord brought us--for 'grace and truth came through Jesus Christ' [Jn 1.17]--nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother.

umm, an Encyclical is just a pastoral letter- it's not dogmatic...

This is a belief amoung those who are devoted to Mary. Which apparently this pope was...

It's not an official teaching of the Church that we all have to be devoted to Mary and figuratively .. go to God through devotion her...

you dont want to have devotion to Mary ten don't. and if this speech is extreme- as a Catholic we are free to have that opinion.

Bright Candle doesn't want to tell you that though.. does he?