Is it wrong to want to die?

[Cis.jd]

Wow, this is fun. Ahem. You said I took your words out of context. That is an accusation that I take seriously. Here are your words, again:
So let me get this straight, when a person is suffering that badly, to the point that death is the best release of that pain, that isn't a category of an extreme circumstance of suffering?
Please show how I (quoting you) took your words out of context. Please clarify your position on the spectrum of suffering. Paper cuts to terminal diseases. Is one not allowed to end their life if they have a paper cut but on is allowed if they have a painful disease. You have not stated your position on this point.

Yes, you take it out of context. Just by how you made a theological discussion with "there has to be evidence of god" kinda shows why you're responses are out of context.You have had that god debate as an agenda as it seems.

How many times do i have to paraphrase and make my stance simpler for you to understand. I already gave you a spectrum of suffering by using the word "extreme". How does that not show any position? LOL I hope you are not trying to get me to post a TL'DR of a list of things that would be extreme.

Um, yeah. I stand on my position. I don't care (and I'd like to be very clear here) what you think other atheists think. You don't get to say what other people think. I don't live my life according to what others believe, and I don't think anyone should. Again, mind your own business. To be clear - as you have not been - I would not advise anyone to take their life. I would also not advise anyone not to take their own life. Mind your own business.

Well that is just you as a person then.. thing you've flopped around in this stance by also saying you would not advice anyone to take their life to "mind your own business".
It seems here you have more of an ego than reasoning now, you just need to have that sense of validation that you aren't the fool here, because you are probably one of those neo-atheists that think they intellectually superior and must feel that way.

Do you tell that "mind your own business" to therapists, various rescue workers, or friends/loved ones of the person who is facing despair, to just let that person be and make decisions based on their own emotions?

Its so weird. You keep saying that whether god is real or not, blah, blah, blah. Not realizing that REAL or NOT REAL is the important part. And, the hating your life part - what are you talking about? Can you provide examples of people who hate their lives and want to die to be with "the lord"? It seems like you are just pulling this out of your butt. You referenced 100% proof of god but provided none. 0%. So, I'll ignore that part

*facepalm, you really just want a "god doesn't exist debate".. lmao
I didn't reference 100% proof of God existing, I gave you a theoretical example to make a point as to why the evidence of God topic that you are sneaking in here is useless. Because as dumbed down over and over again, it doesn't make the reason given by the OP to be right. Yet this you couldn't get, and in the last sentence you go "you haven't provided proof".

Dude, this is frustrating. Here is the math, as I see it: God may / may not exist => Person hates their life => Person wants to be with god => Person is wrong to kill them self to be with god. Do I have the "math" right? Thanks for your replies, but I sure would appreciate it if you would answer the direct questions that I've asked. I think it would speed things up. Cheers.

yes, your math and just everything about the argument is wrong and you are already wasting my time because i've been simplfying it over and over again, and you just don't care about anything other than going "there is no evidence of God.

Here it is: a christian person thinks life isn't that good because of its imperfections so he/she should want death and be with God. Now what you don't get that it doesn't matter if you think this God doesn't exist or not, what matters is that it is still generally wrong.

We are done, man. You are swinging around your e-atheist belt recklessly and are trying to save face for making yourself look illiterate. If you want to debate the issue in regards to evidence of God, go make your own thread about it.

 

[Xavier363]

Yes, you take it out of context. Just by how you made a theological discussion with "there has to be evidence of god" kinda shows why you're responses are out of context.You have had that god debate as an agenda as it seems.

How many times do i have to paraphrase and make my stance simpler for you to understand. I already gave you a spectrum of suffering by using the word "extreme". How does that not show any position? LOL I hope you are not trying to get me to post a TL'DR of a list of things that would be extreme.


Well that is just you as a person then.. thing you've flopped around in this stance by also saying you would not advice anyone to take their life to "mind your own business".
It seems here you have more of an ego than reasoning now, you just need to have that sense of validation that you aren't the fool here, because you are probably one of those neo-atheists that think they intellectually superior and must feel that way.

Do you tell that "mind your own business" to therapists, various rescue workers, or friends/loved ones of the person who is facing despair, to just let that person be and make decisions based on their own emotions?


*facepalm, you really just want a "god doesn't exist debate".. lmao
I didn't reference 100% proof of God existing, I gave you a theoretical example to make a point as to why the evidence of God topic that you are sneaking in here is useless. Because as dumbed down over and over again, it doesn't make the reason given by the OP to be right. Yet this you couldn't get, and in the last sentence you go "you haven't provided proof".



yes, your math and just everything about the argument is wrong and you are already wasting my time because i've been simplfying it over and over again, and you just don't care about anything other than going "there is no evidence of God.

Here it is: a christian person thinks life isn't that good because of its imperfections so he/she should want death and be with God. Now what you don't get that it doesn't matter if you think this God doesn't exist or not, what matters is that it is still generally wrong.

We are done, man. You are swinging around your e-atheist belt recklessly and are trying to save face for making yourself look illiterate. If you want to debate the issue in regards to evidence of God, go make your own thread about it.

Nope. You claimed I too your words out of context. Here are your words again:
Here are your words, again:
So let me get this straight, when a person is suffering that badly, to the point that death is the best release of that pain, that isn't a category of an extreme circumstance of suffering?
Please show how I (quoting you) took your words out of context. Please clarify your position on the spectrum of suffering. Paper cuts to terminal diseases. Is one not allowed to end their life if they have a paper cut but one is allowed if they have a painful disease. You have not stated your position on this point. Why so difficult to answer the question?

I think that I've stated my "mind your own business" perspective quite clearly. You can disagree with it and try to impose your will on others - I don't. Someone wants to end their life and they feel they have good reasons then fine - their life is their own. Honestly, when your are referring to therapists and rescue workers, etc, I just have no idea what you are talking about. I think you are probably just going off in a tangent as a distraction. You also seem to be quite angry. I've simply been asking and answering questions. I do feel that you have not answered some questions and I have expressed frustration.

Your words:
A christian person thinks life isn't that good because of its imperfections so he/she should want death and be with God. Now what you don't get that it doesn't matter if you think this God doesn't exist or not, what matters is that it is still generally wrong.
Super simple point that you seem unable to address honestly: it could only be generally "wrong" if a god actually exists. Not debating whether one does actually exists. And this is a question that an honest person could answer without hesitation.

Sorry you are so angry.

 

[Xavier363]

I was just curious and pondering on the thought of why do people often think it's wrong if someone feels like they want to die. Don't majority of us here long to be together with the lord?

Something that I just thought of today was the desire of people to be with the gods of other religions. The scenario that first springs to mind are the Moslems who so desire to be with god that they will do anything to be a martyr. Martyrs are given a fast track to paradise. The true believing Moslems that blow themselves up are martyrs for the cause and are then immediately in paradise. So, I guess that I would have to say that wanting to be with a god, at the very least in this case, would be a bad idea.

 

[Xavier363]

I was just curious and pondering on the thought of why do people often think it's wrong if someone feels like they want to die. Don't majority of us here long to be together with the lord?

Another think I'm wondering about involves only one assumption: heaven is for eternity - without end? If this was actually the case, is there anything that you would like to do for eternity? I like to do a variety of things at this stage of my life, but I'm pretty sure I'd not like to do any of them for eternity. I wonder what your version of heaven would be like?

 

[Cis.jd]

Sorry you are so angry.

I am highly annoyed with everybody in this site.

Another think I'm wondering about involves only one assumption: heaven is for eternity - without end? If this was actually the case, is there anything that you would like to do for eternity? I like to do a variety of things at this stage of my life, but I'm pretty sure I'd not like to do any of them for eternity. I wonder what your version of heaven would be like?

I'd actually prefer us being reborn and redoing our lives, maybe avoiding certain mistakes we made in the past. I sometimes hope heaven is exactly just that.

 

[Brihaha]

Yes if we are to think about only ourselves it would be best to be with the Lord as soon as possible, but God has a reason for us to be here, each one of us has something to accomplish in God's plan. Maybe you are going to save someone's life some day and if you are not there that person will die and that person may have been the person to find the cure to cancer. I am just trying to make a point in this explanation, we do not know why we are here but God knows.

I like this reply from you. I think Paul mentioned this in Corinthians or Philippians. He even struggled wanting to leave this mortal world but knew it should be God's will. God has unknown plans for most of us. Also, since we usually don't agree on many topics I wanted to accentuate the positives here to show you maybe we have more in common than it seems. Peace

 

[Brihaha]

Hi. Nope, not extreme in the slightest. Suffering is to be avoided. Medical science helps us minimize pain and suffering. As to god wanting us to suffer without relief until a "natural death" - if your reason for wanting to die is to be with a god you should first have evidence that a specific god actually exists. If you do not have such evidence that a specific god exists, then you might as well say that "I want to die so that I can be with a baloney sandwich". So, reject pain and suffering, live a good and guilt / shame free life, and don't let myths and stories influence your life unnecessarily.

God uses our suffering to motivate us to change. And develop our faith. Faith is the key you seem to be ignoring. I read your posts and you make some valid points. While another poster noted life is a gift, so is our free will. I absolutely agree with your reasoning that you have control over your life. God has to give us a will so we can prove our faith with our actions. If we didn't have the option to sin it would be difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. I'm unsure if taking our own life will relegate one to Hades. I think we could even be forgiven for suicide perhaps. From reading the Bible the unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Maybe suicide falls under that category. I don't know. I'm not trying to find out either.
Faith is how God separates His people from the rest of humanity. If He came down and let us all take selfies with Him how could we prove our faith to Him? Faith is the one element you seem unwilling to offer. You cannot expect God to answer unfaithful prayers can you?

 

[Brihaha]

Another think I'm wondering about involves only one assumption: heaven is for eternity - without end? If this was actually the case, is there anything that you would like to do for eternity? I like to do a variety of things at this stage of my life, but I'm pretty sure I'd not like to do any of them for eternity. I wonder what your version of heaven would be like?

God will decide eternity for all of us. If you are truly worried about it you would learn more about the requirements to enter heaven. Because eternity may be more than simple boredom in your situation. Just food for thought friend. Accepting that Jesus died for our sins is the sole path to an enjoyable after life. Peace

 

[disciple Clint]

I like this reply from you. I think Paul mentioned this in Corinthians or Philippians. He even struggled wanting to leave this mortal world but knew it should be God's will. God has unknown plans for most of us. Also, since we usually don't agree on many topics I wanted to accentuate the positives here to show you maybe we have more in common than it seems. Peace

We have the same God we just have different views on political issues.

 

[ViaCrucis]

First, I want to start out saying that I'm not suicidal or anything like that. I was just curious and pondering on the thought of why do people often think it's wrong if someone feels like they want to die. Don't majority of us here long to be together with the lord?

I often have feelings of not wanting to be here or feeling out of place in the world but the thought of being in heaven, with God, lost loved ones, without medical issues, aging, pain. All seem like very reasonable things that us Christians would look forward to.

Would love to hear your take.

This isn't a matter of right or wrong, but a matter of mental health.

As a matter of theology, Christians recognize that this life matters, and Christ calls us to lives of loving our fellow human beings and seeking their betterment--with the faith and hope that, ultimately, God is going to make all things good. While the Apostle does say it is preferable to be absent the body and present with the Lord, this does not mean that death is preferable, or that life is unpreferable; rather the Apostle speaks honestly concerning the struggles of this world and that being with the Lord would be preferable the sufferings of this life. Nevertheless, this is the life we have, and it is to be lived sincerely: as a cross-carrying disciple of Jesus, meeting the world in its suffering. Death, we must always remember, is the arch-nemesis; which is why we confess, in spite of the absurdity of it, that Jesus rose from the dead, and resurrection is the promise in Christ. Not eternity as disembodied ghosts (that's Gnosticism), but physical human beings, and this planet we inhabit, and this whole wide universe in which it is located, is the good creation of God. And God is faithful to His creation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Xavier363]

I am highly annoyed with everybody in this site.


I'd actually prefer us being reborn and redoing our lives, maybe avoiding certain mistakes we made in the past. I sometimes hope heaven is exactly just that.

I'd certainly prefer to be reborn than spend eternity in heaven. The only way I'd agree to do anything for "eternity" would be if I had an opt-out button to push. Interesting that it seems you would choose an alternative to heaven, more like Buddhism. I'd not expected that.

 

[Cis.jd]

I'd certainly prefer to be reborn than spend eternity in heaven. The only way I'd agree to do anything for "eternity" would be if I had an opt-out button to push. Interesting that it seems you would choose an alternative to heaven, more like Buddhism. I'd not expected that.

I see that eternity thing to be good for those who deserve hell.

 

[Xavier363]

God uses our suffering to motivate us to change. And develop our faith. Faith is the key you seem to be ignoring. I read your posts and you make some valid points. While another poster noted life is a gift, so is our free will. I absolutely agree with your reasoning that you have control over your life. God has to give us a will so we can prove our faith with our actions. If we didn't have the option to sin it would be difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. I'm unsure if taking our own life will relegate one to Hades. I think we could even be forgiven for suicide perhaps. From reading the Bible the unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Maybe suicide falls under that category. I don't know. I'm not trying to find out either.
Faith is how God separates His people from the rest of humanity. If He came down and let us all take selfies with Him how could we prove our faith to Him? Faith is the one element you seem unwilling to offer. You cannot expect God to answer unfaithful prayers can you?

Hi, thanks for the opportunity to reply. I don't have children (my choice, vasectomy in my early 30's) but I know enough about child development to understand the difference between positive and negative reinforcement. Basically the carrot or the stick. You can beat a child or a pet when they do something you would not like to reinforce, or you can encourage them when they do what you are trying to achieve. If a god uses suffering, it is using negative reinforcement, which, I believe has been shown to be counter productive and also creates offspring that will perpetuate the behavior. As for faith, yes, I ignore it. Faith is the excuse people use to "believe" things when they don't have a good reason to do so. If you have evidence, you don't need faith. Aristotle had faith that the velocity of an object falling was based on its weight. Smart guy, seemed obvious, he was wrong. Once the experiments were performed, faith lost out - as it always does. I'd like to leave it here until I receive your reply except for one additional point: if a god is all powerful, etc, the idea of an unforgivable sin makes no sense to me. Thanks, looking forward to your reply.

 

[Xavier363]

I see that eternity thing to be good for those who deserve hell.

Here's a quote I like: "
We are the pure and chosen few
And all the rest are damned
There's room enough in Hell for you
We don't want Heaven crammed"

Infinite punishment for finite crime? Not my position. Is it yours?

 

[Xavier363]

God will decide eternity for all of us. If you are truly worried about it you would learn more about the requirements to enter heaven. Because eternity may be more than simple boredom in your situation. Just food for thought friend. Accepting that Jesus died for our sins is the sole path to an enjoyable after life. Peace

Missed this earlier. Jesus dying for my sins bothers me not at all. I find the idea of vicarious redemption immoral. To clarify, I harm person A. I apologize to person B. Person B says, that's all right mate, your good now. The harm done to person A has not been addressed - not by me, the one who harmed person A. There is no way that a Person B, (ie Jesus) can be used vicariously to address the harm that I've done to person A. So, no matter how many Jesus's (hmm, is it like cactus and the plural is Jesusi?) claim to die in order to wipe away my responsibility to person A - nope. That's just not how it works. Just as one cannot take the place in prison for the crime of another. Again, thanks for your thoughts and looking forward to your reply.

P.S. Perhaps I'm reading more into this than you intended, but I wonder if you have a slightly deeper meaning here: "Because eternity may be more than simple boredom in your situation." If I'm out of line, apologies, please let me know

 

[Cis.jd]

Infinite punishment for finite crime? Not my position. Is it yours?

Yes, depending on the crime. There was stuff i saw in the dark web a while back, and i extremely advice never to go there it because that place is a black mirror of what depths of evil a human can do. it's unfathomable and it can change your very outlook in life. there are people who do deserve hell because they've lost every right to be considered human.

 

[Brihaha]

Hi, thanks for the opportunity to reply. I don't have children (my choice, vasectomy in my early 30's) but I know enough about child development to understand the difference between positive and negative reinforcement. Basically the carrot or the stick. You can beat a child or a pet when they do something you would not like to reinforce, or you can encourage them when they do what you are trying to achieve. If a god uses suffering, it is using negative reinforcement, which, I believe has been shown to be counter productive and also creates offspring that will perpetuate the behavior. As for faith, yes, I ignore it. Faith is the excuse people use to "believe" things when they don't have a good reason to do so. If you have evidence, you don't need faith. Aristotle had faith that the velocity of an object falling was based on its weight. Smart guy, seemed obvious, he was wrong. Once the experiments were performed, faith lost out - as it always does. I'd like to leave it here until I receive your reply except for one additional point: if a god is all powerful, etc, the idea of an unforgivable sin makes no sense to me. Thanks, looking forward to your reply.

Man, I had written up a nice long reply for you and then my browser restarted and I lost it. Such is life. I understand the negative reinforcement view you present and it is valid. For the mortal realm. God inhabits another realm which we mortals cannot fully grasp. And He uses our suffering to strengthen our faith. He uses it to punish us. And He uses it for His own glory. It builds our faithful character because humans seem to learn better from failures.

I took a college philosophy class back in 2014 and I read some of Aristotle and Epicurus and Anselm and Aquinas. I love that stuff. They were living in the long, long ago before Jesus was even introduced. And for the times, Aristotle and Epicurus seemed to have the right idea. Minimize your desires to maximize your happiness. Happiness was the goal. Faith lost out because Aristotle found evidence refuting his theory. With God, we are given no direct evidence He exists intentionally, to elevate the priority of faith.

Without God sacrificing Jesus to save us from ourselves, none would make it to heaven based on the laws. We are all sinners by nature, thereby necessitating a faith in God and Jesus to save souls of the faithful so heaven can be awarded to mortals along with Jesus and the angels. I would be willing to wager even if God came down and took selfies with some humans there would still be a large contingent of people who would deny His existence. It is due to my faith in the Holy Spirit. God gave us faithful the blessing of faith via His Holy Spirit in our hearts. Those who accept this gift and work on their faith are rewarded with eternal life in heaven. Those who reject His Holy Spirit are rewarded accordingly as well. I understand blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin. I'm not sure if wanting to die falls into that category. I don't think so. As I understand the bible, all sins can be forgiven. I reckon one would probably do well to ask forgiveness before taking his own life. But if a man has faith enough to ask forgiveness before suicide, it stands to reason he could have faith in God to take away his urge to end his life altogether.

I know I've read it pleases God when He can reclaim a lost soul. He explains it thru the parable of the lost sheep. I'm merely hoping you could decide to give faith a chance. It is very liberating. I don't need to worry about things with faith. Worrying about things I can't control is a counterproductive endeavor and faith in God allows me freedom from worry. Unless I choose it for myself, which I'm learning how to avoid. I'm now concerned with preparing my soul for heaven and losing my hunger for earthly desires.

I just did finish reading the bible last year after taking a break from working my faith. I was saved and baptized as a teenager and somehow thought my work was finished haha. This is an interesting topic and I have enjoyed the discussion. I appreciate your respectful conversation my friend. Have a great day.

 

[Xavier363]

Yes, depending on the crime. There was stuff i saw in the dark web a while back, and i extremely advice never to go there it because that place is a black mirror of what depths of evil a human can do. it's unfathomable and it can change your very outlook in life. there are people who do deserve hell because they've lost every right to be considered human.

I don't think that infinite punishment for finite crime is moral. In general we punish to correct behavior and we apportion the punishment accordingly. Infinite punishment is just vengeance driven and speaks more to what is going on in the mind of the punisher. I'm glad you are not in charge of the universe.

 

[Xavier363]

Man, I had written up a nice long reply for you and then my browser restarted and I lost it. Such is life. I understand the negative reinforcement view you present and it is valid. For the mortal realm. God inhabits another realm which we mortals cannot fully grasp. And He uses our suffering to strengthen our faith. He uses it to punish us. And He uses it for His own glory. It builds our faithful character because humans seem to learn better from failures.

I took a college philosophy class back in 2014 and I read some of Aristotle and Epicurus and Anselm and Aquinas. I love that stuff. They were living in the long, long ago before Jesus was even introduced. And for the times, Aristotle and Epicurus seemed to have the right idea. Minimize your desires to maximize your happiness. Happiness was the goal. Faith lost out because Aristotle found evidence refuting his theory. With God, we are given no direct evidence He exists intentionally, to elevate the priority of faith.

Without God sacrificing Jesus to save us from ourselves, none would make it to heaven based on the laws. We are all sinners by nature, thereby necessitating a faith in God and Jesus to save souls of the faithful so heaven can be awarded to mortals along with Jesus and the angels. I would be willing to wager even if God came down and took selfies with some humans there would still be a large contingent of people who would deny His existence. It is due to my faith in the Holy Spirit. God gave us faithful the blessing of faith via His Holy Spirit in our hearts. Those who accept this gift and work on their faith are rewarded with eternal life in heaven. Those who reject His Holy Spirit are rewarded accordingly as well. I understand blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin. I'm not sure if wanting to die falls into that category. I don't think so. As I understand the bible, all sins can be forgiven. I reckon one would probably do well to ask forgiveness before taking his own life. But if a man has faith enough to ask forgiveness before suicide, it stands to reason he could have faith in God to take away his urge to end his life altogether.

I know I've read it pleases God when He can reclaim a lost soul. He explains it thru the parable of the lost sheep. I'm merely hoping you could decide to give faith a chance. It is very liberating. I don't need to worry about things with faith. Worrying about things I can't control is a counterproductive endeavor and faith in God allows me freedom from worry. Unless I choose it for myself, which I'm learning how to avoid. I'm now concerned with preparing my soul for heaven and losing my hunger for earthly desires.

I just did finish reading the bible last year after taking a break from working my faith. I was saved and baptized as a teenager and somehow thought my work was finished haha. This is an interesting topic and I have enjoyed the discussion. I appreciate your respectful conversation my friend. Have a great day.

Hey. Sorry to hear about your browser restarting - I really hate having to write the same thing twice. I write into a text file, which periodically saves, and then copy the whole thing once I'm done.

What I got from the first paragraph of your response was: negative reinforcement in the real world is bad, but you have faith that there is another world where negative reinforcement is good and that is used to strengthen faith. I hope that I’ve stated your position accurately here.

My position is that using faith to make decisions is flawed. Just as a stopped clock is correct twice a day, occasionally using faith could accidentally get you a positive outcome. More often it won’t. If you have evidence, you don’t need faith. If all you have is faith, you are just making decisions on what you hope is true. That is the abdication of your responsibilities as a thinking person. Also, from your writing I’m sure you are aware, the Sharp Shooter fallacy shows us how we remember the hits and forget the misses. Faith only seems like a good method when it accidentally hits.

So, the god sacrificing Jesus thing. This has always confused me. I’m not really looking for an explanation, I don’t think that it can be done. Here is the confusing part: there seems to be 3 gods. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit - all existing in heaven simultaneously. If Jesus still exists and is in heaven then there was no sacrifice. God lost nothing. Jesus had a bad weekend and then went to heaven. The other part that I reject is the need for a sacrifice in the first place. Simplified, it seems that to honour a god, one would sacrifice something. Kill it, burn it, destroy it somehow. The more valuable the object, the more god would pay attention to the sacrifice. The ultimate sacrifice would be the most valuable object ever: Jesus. I don’t understand how destroying something valuable is somehow a good thing to the creator of the universe.

If a god appeared to me and I got a selfie, honestly, I’d think I was on a hidden camera show. To your point, however, if the creator of the universe wanted me to believe it existed, that being would absolutely know how to convince me. It seems a trivial matter. To me it seems that there are two possibilities. The creator of the universe does actually exist but does not want me to know that it exists. There is no creator of the universe. From my perspective each of these possibilities appears identical. Further, if I was shown evidence that convinced me that a god existed, I could then look at its properties and behaviours and decide for myself if it was worthy of worship. One requiring blood sacrifices, IMHO, would not be.

The unforgivable sin part. As a thought experiment I’ll explain my thought process on this. Say I’ve not committed an unforgivable sin - my destination after death is undetermined. Door #1 Heaven, door #2 Hell. I make a conscious decision to commit an unforgivable sin - my destination is now door #2. God is unable to forgive me and I’m going to hell. In this regard, I’m more powerful than the god. If the god actually can forgive me, then there is no such thing as an unforgivable sin. I hope that I’ve been clear in my description here.

I too am enjoying our discourse and look forward to your reply

P.S. Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V...

 

[Cis.jd]

I don't think that infinite punishment for finite crime is moral. In general we punish to correct behavior and we apportion the punishment accordingly. Infinite punishment is just vengeance driven and speaks more to what is going on in the mind of the punisher. I'm glad you are not in charge of the universe.

I'll respect your opinion, but i do not think you've seen the actual worst of man. Try to google some examples to read or search quora about the dark web, they are that evil that even reading it makes your stomach hurl.

I'll give you one story that isn't even the worst out there. There was this 5 year old Egyptian girl who was under the custody of her grandmother, now this girl was taken to the hospital because she was dying. She was covered with bruises and burns that were so bad that her leg had to be amputated. The doctors investigated further and found out her gentials where burned, and it was later discovered that the grandmother burned them to punish the girl for peeing and also to cover up for the uncle who was sexually abusing the girl. You think people like that deserve to eventually go to heaven? Those are monsters.