Is it wrong to want to die?

[Xavier363]

Thanks, Clint. Did you pray? I wonder how god would handle it if two equally nice / good people sincerely prayed for diametrically opposing outcomes. Or is it just a numbers game, maybe. If 95% of the population prayed (sincerely) for the earth to be flat, would god submit? On that note, is there anything - large or small - that could be prayed for that would affect the will of the creator of the universe? Mmmm... if not, then why ever pray? I find these puzzles interesting.

 

[disciple Clint]

Thanks, Clint. Did you pray? I wonder how god would handle it if two equally nice / good people sincerely prayed for diametrically opposing outcomes. Or is it just a numbers game, maybe. If 95% of the population prayed (sincerely) for the earth to be flat, would god submit? On that note, is there anything - large or small - that could be prayed for that would affect the will of the creator of the universe? Mmmm... if not, then why ever pray? I find these puzzles interesting.

It would depend if the condition was in the permissive will of God or the absolute will of God. God can and does respond to prayer.

 

[Xavier363]

It would depend if the condition was in the permissive will of God or the absolute will of God. God can and does respond to prayer.

Thanks for your reply. So, how do you determine "permissive will of god" compared to "absolute will of god"? I mean, if it is the will of god, that must mean that it is the "will of god". If anything is not "the will of god" then, basically, it shall not be done. Positing different "wills of gods" seems to confuse the issue. Asking the question clearly here: Is there anything (and, to be super clear here - I mean anything) that someone praying for (their best wishes, not killing an enemy, etc...) that could possibly change the mind of the god you believe in? If you pray for something that your god doesn't like, then it will say "no". How can you think that praying for something that your god doesn't like will sway it? I mean, if god wants it, then god will have it - prayer is just irrelevant. Make sense?

 

[disciple Clint]

Thanks for your reply. So, how do you determine "permissive will of god" compared to "absolute will of god"? I mean, if it is the will of god, that must mean that it is the "will of god". If anything is not "the will of god" then, basically, it shall not be done. Positing different "wills of gods" seems to confuse the issue. Asking the question clearly here: Is there anything (and, to be super clear here - I mean anything) that someone praying for (their best wishes, not killing an enemy, etc...) that could possibly change the mind of the god you believe in? If you pray for something that your god doesn't like, then it will say "no". How can you think that praying for something that your god doesn't like will sway it? I mean, if god wants it, then god will have it - prayer is just irrelevant. Make sense?

Take this passage from Genesis for example:
Abraham Begs for Sodom
…24What if there are fifty righteous ones in the city? Will You really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous ones who are there? 25Far be it from You to do such a thing— to kill the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Will not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?” 26So the LORD replied, “If I find fifty righteous ones within the city of Sodom, on their account I will spare the whole place.”…
I am just using this as an example that God can in fact be influenced by a request. There are other examples. The permissive will of God relates to things that are going to happen as a result of man's actions that God did not specifically will to happen but allows to happen.

 

[Marumorose]

First, I want to start out saying that I'm not suicidal or anything like that. I was just curious and pondering on the thought of why do people often think it's wrong if someone feels like they want to die. Don't majority of us here long to be together with the lord?

I often have feelings of not wanting to be here or feeling out of place in the world but the thought of being in heaven, with God, lost loved ones, without medical issues, aging, pain. All seem like very reasonable things that us Christians would look forward to.

Would love to hear your take.

I want to be with the Lord too but i know that God brought me here for a reason. We are here in this world to prepare ourselves to go to either heaven(to purify ourselves) or hell. Our rebirth, redemption, salvation, forgiveness of sins start on earth. What if you wish to die before you are completely reborn, before you are forgiven for your sins? Do you know that it took Adam 5500 years for his sin to be forgiven? We must use the time we have serving the Lord so that he can have mercy on us.
John 12:26 Jesus Christ says "If any man serve me, let him follow me, and where I am, there shall also my servant be: If any man serve me, he will my Father honour.
Psalms 30:9 says" What profit is there is my blood, when i go down the grave? Shall the dust praise you? Shall it declare your truth?
May God Bless You

 

[Xavier363]

Take this passage from Genesis for example:
Abraham Begs for Sodom
…24What if there are fifty righteous ones in the city? Will You really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous ones who are there? 25Far be it from You to do such a thing— to kill the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Will not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?” 26So the LORD replied, “If I find fifty righteous ones within the city of Sodom, on their account I will spare the whole place.”…
I am just using this as an example that God can in fact be influenced by a request. There are other examples. The permissive will of God relates to things that are going to happen as a result of man's actions that God did not specifically will to happen but allows to happen.

Hi Clint. So if god can be influenced, that must mean that god does not know what is going to happen in the future since the influence changes a future outcome? Or is it that god knows in advance what the influence will be and then just acts accordingly? Or, does it mean that if god is able to know the future, it is incapable of acting in a way that would change future events that it can see? That would mean that an all knowing god would not be able to intervene in a way that could change future events - and therefore not be all powerful. Seems to me that god cannot be all powerful and all knowing simultaneously. Cheers.

 

[Cis.jd]

First, I want to start out saying that I'm not suicidal or anything like that. I was just curious and pondering on the thought of why do people often think it's wrong if someone feels like they want to die. Don't majority of us here long to be together with the lord?

I often have feelings of not wanting to be here or feeling out of place in the world but the thought of being in heaven, with God, lost loved ones, without medical issues, aging, pain. All seem like very reasonable things that us Christians would look forward to.

Would love to hear your take.

It's wrong because no matter what the reasons are, they are all attached to thought of a "release of pain" which is the same reasoning that people who end their lives have. Even animals and insects don't want to die. Have you seen animals flee when in danger, or an ant go the opposite direction when you place your finger in front of it? Yet, your life was created (or selected) to be of greater value. Keeping life going is naturally designed in every living creature because God wanted all his creations to value their lives.

 

[Xavier363]

It's wrong because no matter what the reasons are, they are all attached to thought of a "release of pain" which is the same reasoning that people who end their lives have. Even animals and insects don't want to die. Have you seen animals flee when in danger, or an ant go the opposite direction when you place your finger in front of it? Yet, your life was created (or selected) to be of greater value. Keeping life going is naturally designed in every living creature because God wanted all his creations to value their lives.

Hi. Release of pain is a good thing. A large part of medical science is based upon just exactly that - the release of pain. Anyone who advocates for increasing (or just not reducing) pain is simply wrong. Suffering is not a virtue, it is to be avoided whenever possible. I don't WANT to die, but I sure do NOT want to suffer. If a person is suffering and the prognosis is for further and increasing suffering / pain, only a monster would advise / require that person to continue suffering until they die. That is so ugly, wrong, and cruel. Happily many societies now allow us to end our suffering with death with dignity.

 

[Cis.jd]

Hi. Release of pain is a good thing. A large part of medical science is based upon just exactly that - the release of pain. Anyone who advocates for increasing (or just not reducing) pain is simply wrong. Suffering is not a virtue, it is to be avoided whenever possible. I don't WANT to die, but I sure do NOT want to suffer. If a person is suffering and the prognosis is for further and increasing suffering / pain, only a monster would advise / require that person to continue suffering until they die. That is so ugly, wrong, and cruel. Happily many societies now allow us to end our suffering with death with dignity.

You are giving out extreme circumstances to justify a point that is out of the topic's context. Ofcourse there are circumstances that involve extreme physical/mental suffering where death would be the better outcome.

However the OP's reasoning is based off religious reasoning and trying to question why it would be wrong in that specific circumstance

 

[Xavier363]

You are giving out extreme circumstances to justify a point that is out of the topic's context. Ofcourse there are circumstances that involve extreme physical/mental suffering where death would be the better outcome.

However the OP's reasoning is based off religious reasoning and trying to question why it would be wrong in that specific circumstance

Hi. Nope, not extreme in the slightest. Suffering is to be avoided. Medical science helps us minimize pain and suffering. As to god wanting us to suffer without relief until a "natural death" - if your reason for wanting to die is to be with a god you should first have evidence that a specific god actually exists. If you do not have such evidence that a specific god exists, then you might as well say that "I want to die so that I can be with a baloney sandwich". So, reject pain and suffering, live a good and guilt / shame free life, and don't let myths and stories influence your life unnecessarily.

 

[Cis.jd]

Hi. Nope, not extreme in the slightest. Suffering is to be avoided. Medical science helps us minimize pain and suffering. As to god wanting us to suffer without relief until a "natural death" - if your reason for wanting to die is to be with a god you should first have evidence that a specific god actually exists. If you do not have such evidence that a specific god exists, then you might as well say that "I want to die so that I can be with a baloney sandwich". So, reject pain and suffering, live a good and guilt / shame free life, and don't let myths and stories influence your life unnecessarily.

Your arguments are irrelevant and out of context.

Suffering = extreme.

No one is denying or even talking about physical pain or denying medical science, the topic is simply telling the OP why "wanting to go to heaven" doesn't make any desire to die, right.

Look at your responses to it: "medical science", and now "give me evidence of God". LOL What are you talking about? What is worse is that you probably think you showed off some knowledge here with out even realizing you are making your own topic and thinking it's being debated on.

I know you are going to quote this and try to save face, but please understand first what the argument is about before before going trigger happy with that "atheist give evidence for God" gun.

 

[Xavier363]

Your arguments are irrelevant and out of context.

Suffering = extreme.

No one is denying or even talking about physical pain or denying medical science, the topic is simply telling the OP why "wanting to go to heaven" doesn't make any desire to die, right.

Look at your responses to it: "medical science", and now "give me evidence of God". LOL What are you talking about? What is worse is that you probably think you showed off some knowledge here with out even realizing you are making your own topic and thinking it's being debated on.

I know you are going to quote this and try to save face, but please understand first what the argument is about before before going trigger happy with that "atheist give evidence for God" gun.

Hi. Nope: Suffering = suffering. Suffering also = bad. Suffering does NOT EQUAL extreme.

The original post referred to wanting to be with the lord away from medical issues, pain, etc. That is why I was commenting on suffering and pain. Two things here: One - if you want to be with the lord and death is involved, you better be sure that the lord actually exists first. Right? That one is pretty straight forward. Two - if the lord does not exist and you suffer pain, etc. to "natural death" hoping to spend "eternity in the loving arms, blah, etc." then you are wasting the quality of your life.

Life is short, live the best way that you can. I do. If others try to tell you to do bad things (suffer, etc.) don't listen to them. There is no reason to think that the one life that we know we have, that we can prove, that we can demonstrate by simply existing - is just the waiting room for a god. Advising people to do so is just cruel.

 

[Cis.jd]

Hi. Nope: Suffering = suffering. Suffering also = bad. Suffering does NOT EQUAL extreme.

So let me get this straight, when a person is suffering that badly, to the point that death is the best release of that pain, that isn't a category of an extreme circumstance of suffering? Come on.

The original post referred to wanting to be with the lord away from medical issues, pain, etc. That is why I was commenting on suffering and pain. Two things here: One - if you want to be with the lord and death is involved, you better be sure that the lord actually exists first. Right? That one is pretty straight forward. Two - if the lord does not exist and you suffer pain, etc. to "natural death" hoping to spend "eternity in the loving arms, blah, etc." then you are wasting the quality of your life.

Life is short, live the best way that you can. I do. If others try to tell you to do bad things (suffer, etc.) don't listen to them. There is no reason to think that the one life that we know we have, that we can prove, that we can demonstrate by simply existing - is just the waiting room for a god. Advising people to do so is just cruel.

No. The OP was giving examples of all the negatives in this world, and why us Christians should look forward to going to God faster because of those reasons. So to answer that as Christians (which is the perspective being asked) those are not justifiable reasons for us wanting to die to go God.

Your 2nd "thing" here is useless for you to factor in, because obviously the believer thinks there is evidence of the God they believe in. There is no need for the "evidence" thing because what is being asked is the morality of this christian view being in the circumstances described in the op. This is a philosophical issue and what you are implying or trying to reason with is irrelevant.

 

[disciple Clint]

Hi Clint. So if god can be influenced, that must mean that god does not know what is going to happen in the future since the influence changes a future outcome? Or is it that god knows in advance what the influence will be and then just acts accordingly? Or, does it mean that if god is able to know the future, it is incapable of acting in a way that would change future events that it can see? That would mean that an all knowing god would not be able to intervene in a way that could change future events - and therefore not be all powerful. Seems to me that god cannot be all powerful and all knowing simultaneously. Cheers.

Well it may seem that way to you but God is not limited in what He can do or elect not to do.

 

[Xavier363]

So let me get this straight, when a person is suffering that badly, to the point that death is the best release of that pain, that isn't a category of an extreme circumstance of suffering? Come on.



No. The OP was giving examples of all the negatives in this world, and why us Christians should look forward to going to God faster because of those reasons. So to answer that as Christians (which is the perspective being asked) those are not justifiable reasons for us wanting to die to go God.

Your 2nd "thing" here is useless for you to factor in, because obviously the believer thinks there is evidence of the God they believe in. There is no need for the "evidence" thing because what is being asked is the morality of this christian view being in the circumstances described in the op. This is a philosophical issue and what you are implying or trying to reason with is irrelevant.

Sigh. Ok, come on. I'm saying that all suffering is bad / unwanted, etc. You seem to be saying that only extreme suffering to the point that one would rather die than continue suffering is bad. Please clarify your position.

The original post was:
First, I want to start out saying that I'm not suicidal or anything like that. I was just curious and pondering on the thought of why do people often think it's wrong if someone feels like they want to die. Don't majority of us here long to be together with the lord?

I often have feelings of not wanting to be here or feeling out of place in the world but the thought of being in heaven, with God, lost loved ones, without medical issues, aging, pain. All seem like very reasonable things that us Christians would look forward to.

Clearly, the original poster was referring to death, wanting to be with the lord, medical issues, pain, etc. Asking if it is "wrong" if one would feel like they wanted to die.

I've commented by referring to my own thoughts on death, dying, pain, medical science, etc. All relevant.

You said:
It's wrong because no matter what the reasons are, they are all attached to thought of a "release of pain" which is the same reasoning that people who end their lives have.

So I commented on your ridiculous position that "no matter what the reasons are" "release of pain" seems to be "wrong" to you. If this is not your position, please clarify.

My second thing:
Two - if the lord does not exist and you suffer pain, etc. to "natural death" hoping to spend "eternity in the loving arms, blah, etc." then you are wasting the quality of your life.

Seriously, if the lord does not exist - any time devoted to that belief is a waste of time. Honestly, come on. I'm assuming you waste no time contemplating the wishes of Vishnu, Poseidon, Mars, Quetzalcoatl, Astarte, Buddha, Zeus, the list goes on. Following the rules of a god that does not actually exist, please be honest here, would be a waste of time. Correct? Thanks for your previous replies, I do enjoy the exchanges

 

[Cis.jd]

Sigh. Ok, come on. I'm saying that all suffering is bad / unwanted, etc. You seem to be saying that only extreme suffering to the point that one would rather die than continue suffering is bad. Please clarify your position.

I'm not saying that at all. I don't need to clarify anything, that was simple to understand and you took it out of context and just ran with it because you need to have a point validated.

It's wrong because no matter what the reasons are, they are all attached to thought of a "release of pain" which is the same reasoning that people who end their lives have.

My response is a scenario: There was this guy who loved this girl, he believed/thought she was the one for him, she eventually dumped him and broke his heart which left him for weeks of pain, due to their being pain being experienced should he kill himself?

So I commented on your ridiculous position that "no matter what the reasons are" "release of pain" seems to be "wrong" to you. If this is not your position, please clarify.

The point of that was supposed to explain why christians wanting to die to be with God is wrong, regardless of what we believe. It's devaluing your life because you are equating it to be as bad as someone who is actually suffering.

My second thing:
Two - if the lord does not exist and you suffer pain, etc. to "natural death" hoping to spend "eternity in the loving arms, blah, etc." then you are wasting the quality of your life.

Seriously, if the lord does not exist - any time devoted to that belief is a waste of time. Honestly, come on. I'm assuming you waste no time contemplating the wishes of Vishnu, Poseidon, Mars, Quetzalcoatl, Astarte, Buddha, Zeus, the list goes on. Following the rules of a god that does not actually exist, please be honest here, would be a waste of time. Correct? Thanks for your previous replies, I do enjoy the exchanges

And what I am saying the whole argument about God existing is irrelevant to this discussion. Here is a added scenario to what you put in so you can understand why it is irrelevant.. lets say God is proven to exist 100%, does that make wanting to die and hating your life here all because you want to be with him - right?

 

[Xavier363]

I'm not saying that at all. I don't need to clarify anything, that was simple to understand and you took it out of context and just ran with it because you need to have a point validated.

You said this:
So let me get this straight, when a person is suffering that badly, to the point that death is the best release of that pain, that isn't a category of an extreme circumstance of suffering? Come on.
Please show how I took your words out of context.
I responded:
Sigh. Ok, come on. I'm saying that all suffering is bad / unwanted, etc. You seem to be saying that only extreme suffering to the point that one would rather die than continue suffering is bad. Please clarify your position.
Again, please clarify your position on the spectrum of suffering. I say it is all bad / to be avoided. Please state your position on acceptable / good suffering. I'm really curious.

Your hypothetical:
My response is a scenario: There was this guy who loved this girl, he believed/thought she was the one for him, she eventually dumped him and broke his heart which left him for weeks of pain, due to their being pain being experienced should he kill himself?
My response:
It is up to him. Full stop. If it was me, no - I've been there. Many if not most of us have. I'm not going to judge. And here is the point - neither should you. Full stop. Mind your own business.

You stated:
The point of that was supposed to explain why christians wanting to die to be with God is wrong, regardless of what we believe. It's devaluing your life because you are equating it to be as bad as someone who is actually suffering.
You seem to avoid my simple and clear questions at every opportunity. Once again:

Seriously, if the lord does not exist - any time devoted to that belief is a waste of time. Honestly, come on. I'm assuming you waste no time contemplating the wishes of Vishnu, Poseidon, Mars, Quetzalcoatl, Astarte, Buddha, Zeus, the list goes on. Following the rules of a god that does not actually exist, please be honest here, would be a waste of time. Correct?
Come on, please just be honest and answer the question. If you need clarification, I'll be happy to provide it.

I feel that life is devalued if one was to believe that our current existence (which is demonstrably true) is only a test for entry into an exclusive club. Failure to measure up means banishment to another exclusive club. This is black / white thinking. This is yes / no thinking. The world is not binary.

You finished with:
And what I am saying the whole argument about God existing is irrelevant to this discussion. Here is a added scenario to what you put in so you can understand why it is irrelevant.. lets say God is proven to exist 100%, does that make wanting to die and hating your life here all because you want to be with him - right?
First, you posit: Lets say god is proven to exist 100%. Sure, when that happens you can use that in an argument. Until that happens - nope.
Second, nowhere have I suggested that I (or anyone else reading, commenting) hates their life. I'm in my mid 50's, retired, have a great shop with lots of tools, have all my fingers, toes, etc. My life is awesome.
Third, sorry, I read it a bunch of times but I don't understand your last sentence. I don't agree with the first two premises and just can't wrap my mind around the last part. Perhaps you could humor me and rewrite it. Again, thanks.

 

[Xavier363]

Sorry, my cutting and pasting resulted in something that looks like a super long quote. Not my intention.

 

[Cis.jd]

Sigh. Ok, come on. I'm saying that all suffering is bad / unwanted, etc. You seem to be saying that only extreme suffering to the point that one would rather die than continue suffering is bad.

No, i never said anything like that. I'm saying that it is understandable when a person wants to die because he/she is under extreme circumstances. They are suffering in other words.

It is up to him. Full stop. If it was me, no - I've been there. Many if not most of us have. I'm not going to judge. And here is the point - neither should you. Full stop. Mind your own business.

But why no? Now, you also made yourself look very interesting by "the mind your own business" part. If someone came to you, being depressed by these same circumstances you are going to tell him it's up to you if you want to die from it because its none of your business? I bet even other atheists out there would look at your response as a neg on you.

Seriously, if the lord does not exist - any time devoted to that belief is a waste of time. Honestly, come on.

and yet again you can't conceive or understand how your "god doesn't exist" line is completely useless here. It doesn't matter if you think God doesn't exist or not, the person who wants to die does.

Also, the counter analogy i gave of "100% proof of God" flew over your head. The point is that no matter if he is real or not, hating your life and wanting to die all because of wanting to be with him is generally wrong. It's irrelevant, get over it and stop using that as an argument because it makes you look illiterate.

You really do not understand what you are reading at all, its just not my last sentence, its as if you are just trying to pry in the "God does not exist" point for an atheist ego-sooth.

 

[Xavier363]

No, i never said anything like that. I'm saying that it is understandable when a person wants to die because he/she is under extreme circumstances. They are suffering in other words.


But why no? Now, you also made yourself look very interesting by "the mind your own business" part. If someone came to you, being depressed by these same circumstances you are going to tell him it's up to you if you want to die from it because its none of your business? I bet even other atheists out there would look at your response as a neg on you.


and yet again you can't conceive or understand how your "god doesn't exist" line is completely useless here. It doesn't matter if you think God doesn't exist or not, the person who wants to die does.

Also, the counter analogy i gave of "100% proof of God" flew over your head. The point is that no matter if he is real or not, hating your life and wanting to die all because of wanting to be with him is generally wrong. It's irrelevant, get over it and stop using that as an argument because it makes you look illiterate.

You really do not understand what you are reading at all, its just not my last sentence, its as if you are just trying to pry in the "God does not exist" point for an atheist ego-sooth.

Wow, this is fun. Ahem. You said I took your words out of context. That is an accusation that I take seriously. Here are your words, again:
So let me get this straight, when a person is suffering that badly, to the point that death is the best release of that pain, that isn't a category of an extreme circumstance of suffering?
Please show how I (quoting you) took your words out of context. Please clarify your position on the spectrum of suffering. Paper cuts to terminal diseases. Is one not allowed to end their life if they have a paper cut but on is allowed if they have a painful disease. You have not stated your position on this point.

I'm sure there were a couple of typo's and weird grammar here, but you said:
But why no? Now, you also made yourself look very interesting by "the mind your own business" part. If someone came to you, being depressed by these same circumstances you are going to tell him it's up to you if you want to die from it because its none of your business? I bet even other atheists out there would look at your response as a neg on you.
Um, yeah. I stand on my position. I don't care (and I'd like to be very clear here) what you think other atheists think. You don't get to say what other people think. I don't live my life according to what others believe, and I don't think anyone should. Again, mind your own business. To be clear - as you have not been - I would not advise anyone to take their life. I would also not advise anyone not to take their own life. Mind your own business.

My favorite part is this:
and yet again you can't conceive or understand how your "god doesn't exist" line is completely useless here. It doesn't matter if you think God doesn't exist or not, the person who wants to die does.
I've never stated that "god does not exist". I have asked questions related to the existence of a god. And, this is very important, it absolutely matters if a god exists. If one exists, I'd like to know. If one does not exist - and, you really have not been honest here - any time spent worshiping / doing god stuff absolutely must be time wasted. Again, come on, just be honest. I thought that lying was one of your sins.

I understand what an analogy is, but I've never heard yet of a counter analogy:
Also, the counter analogy i gave of "100% proof of God" flew over your head. The point is that no matter if he is real or not, hating your life and wanting to die all because of wanting to be with him is generally wrong. It's irrelevant, get over it and stop using that as an argument because it makes you look illiterate.
Its so weird. You keep saying that whether god is real or not, blah, blah, blah. Not realizing that REAL or NOT REAL is the important part. And, the hating your life part - what are you talking about? Can you provide examples of people who hate their lives and want to die to be with "the lord"? It seems like you are just pulling this out of your butt. You referenced 100% proof of god but provided none. 0%. So, I'll ignore that part

The part that I hoped you would clarify was here:
Here is a added scenario to what you put in so you can understand why it is irrelevant.. lets say God is proven to exist 100%, does that make wanting to die and hating your life here all because you want to be with him - right?

Dude, this is frustrating. Here is the math, as I see it: God may / may not exist => Person hates their life => Person wants to be with god => Person is wrong to kill them self to be with god. Do I have the "math" right? Thanks for your replies, but I sure would appreciate it if you would answer the direct questions that I've asked. I think it would speed things up. Cheers.

Again, we are talking about people possibly wanting to die to be with "the lord".