IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)

[LoveGodsWord]

I asked you to demonstrate from the scripture that, sin is defined by the ten commandments.

This is the way you responded.

What a condescending attitude you have. You have decided that I cannot interpret the scripture.

A simple question and your response is on display.

Another accusation, your replies are not civil. Is this the way that you talk to people around you? Where did you learn to behave like this towards others?

You did not answer my question by quoting three verses, because none of those verses. Supported your premise, the premise that, sin is only breaking the ten commandments.

Paul is quoting from the law, Paul did not say, sin is breaking the ten commandments. Here is what Paul said in Romans.

Romans 7:7
I would not have come to know sin except through the Law;...

The law grants the knowledge of sin!

This has nothing to do with the question I asked. I see no mention of the ten commandments only granting the knowledge of sin. This premise seems to be one of the weak points in your theology.

Here is an example of a clearly defined sin in the law.

Exodus 21:16
He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death.

The sin of kidnapping is not one of the ten commandments. It is certainly clear that the whole law grants a knowledge of sin and not just the ten commandments.

Now brother David there is no need to get upset.

You asked a question. This question was answered with God's WORD in detail. Then you still did not believe the scriptures posted to you despite the scriptures referencing the 10 commandments. Each of the scriptures provided to you from ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 4:17; ROMANS 14:23 all showed various aspects of what sin is from breaking any of God's 10 Commandments to rejecting any of God's WORD. These are God's WORD brother David not mine. Maybe you did not like the answer? Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

 

[klutedavid]

Now brother David there is no need to get upset.

You asked asked a question. This question was answered with God's WORD in detail. Then you still did not believe the scriptures posted to you despite the scriptures referencing the 10 commandments. Each of the scriptures provided to you from ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 4:17; ROMANS 14:23 all showed various aspects of what sin is from breaking any of God's 10 Commandments to rejecting any of God's WORD. These are God's WORD brother David not mine. Maybe you did not like the answer? Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

If you think that the text you quoted (Romans 7:7), is saying that the ten commandments only grant a knowledge of sin. Then you are mistaken, Paul says the law grants a knowledge of sin.

Matthew 7:12
In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

A condescending mindset is not what Jesus commanded. You must treat others the way that you wish to be treated, with respect and kindness. If you break this commandment that Jesus gave us, then that is definitely sin!

 

[klutedavid]

Now brother David there is no need to get upset.

You asked asked a question. This question was answered with God's WORD in detail. Then you still did not believe the scriptures posted to you despite the scriptures referencing the 10 commandments. Each of the scriptures provided to you from ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 4:17; ROMANS 14:23 all showed various aspects of what sin is from breaking any of God's 10 Commandments to rejecting any of God's WORD. These are God's WORD brother David not mine. Maybe you did not like the answer? Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

The Seventh Day Adventists adhere to the historical grammatical interpretation of the scripture.

For some reason, you believe that this method of interpretation is a valid method of interpretation. Even though your three verses never actually state, that the ten commandments only grant a knowledge of sin.

You still hold to the tradition of the historical grammatical interpretation. Then accuse others of following men's traditions?

You follow the tradition of men in using this method of interpretation. Read it again slowly,
HISTORICAL grammatical interpretation.

This is the identical method of interpretation that the Catholic church uses. The Catholic church is traditional and historical.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You are misquoting this scripture and quoting it out of context.

NIV Hebrews 4:8-11
(8) For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.
(9) There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest [σαββατισμός/sabbatismos] for the people of God;
(10) for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.
(11) Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.​

The word in vs. 9 is σαββατισμός/sabbatismos i.e. sabbatism. Not σάββατον/sabbaton, the Sabbath day. There is no requirement or necessity for believers to "make every effort" to observe the weekly Sabbath and missing a Sabbath does not cause one to perish.

Hello Der Alter, nice to see you. Let's examine your claims with God's WORD. What is it that you believe is taken out of context? The scripture in reference is...

HEBREWS 4:9 SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:9

In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.” The GREEK word σαββατισμός sabbatismos is a derivative from G4521 Sabbaton which mean SABBATH rest.

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INTERLINEAR HEBREWS 4:9

αρα απολειπεται σαββατισμος τω λαω του θεου
So then there remains a Sabbath rest to the people - of God

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Parallel translations of HEBREWS 4:9

New International Version
There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;

English Standard Version
So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,

Berean Study Bible
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Berean Literal Bible
So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

New American Standard Bible
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, a Sabbath rest remains for God's people.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, a Sabbath rest remains for God's people.

International Standard Version
There remains, therefore, a Sabbath rest for the people of God to keep,

NET Bible
Consequently a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God.

New Heart English Bible
There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

New American Standard 1977
There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

American Standard Version
There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.

Darby Bible Translation
There remains then a sabbatism to the people of God.

English Revised Version
There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.

Weymouth New Testament
It follows that there still remains a sabbath rest for the people of God.

World English Bible
There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Young's Literal Translation
there doth remain, then, a Sabbatic rest to the people of God,

................

WHAT IS HIS REST (God's) IN HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4?

HEBREWS 4
[1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[4], For he spoke in a certain place of the SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And God did rest the SEVENTH DAY from all his works.
5, And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:1-5

NOTE: CONTEXT is God's REST from the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST OF CREATION (v4-5) and those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD [the GOSPEL] enter into God's SABBATH REST as GOD did on the SEVENTH DAY of the week. CONTEXT is GOD's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST and those who believe or do not believe God's WORD do not enter into that rest.

[6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

[10], For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter that rest, [God’s REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief [rejecting God’s WORD and sin; Hebrews 3].
[11], Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief (Heb 3).

................

CONCLUSION: Yep lots of scripture here showing that if you do not enter into God's Gospel rest you cannot enter his SABBATH REST. v 1-4 is the context of the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH confirmed in v9-11 Hebrews 3-4 is talking about the Gospel and the keeping of God's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH by BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. "There remains therefore a SABBATH rest to the people of God. Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief" v9-11. HEBREWS 4 supports the keeping of the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH by believing and following the Word of God.

So your claims that HEBREWS 4:9 is out of CONTEXT when this is the CONTEXT of the topic of conversation in HEBREWS 4:1-4 is God's SABBATH REST is false.

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God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

The Sabbath was given exclusively to the children of Israel, not all mankind and the Jews understood it this way.

Leviticus 24:8 Every Sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.
Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
======================
Jewish Encyclopedia-Gentiles
the Gentiles have no share in the life to come (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 2; Sanh. 105a).
"The Torah outlawed the issue of a Gentile as that of a beast" (Miḳ. viii. 4, referring to Ezek. l.c.)
Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death"
Resh Laḳish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachidæ, inasmuch as "the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel alone," and it was probably directed against the Christian Jews, who disregarded the Mosaic laws and yet at that time kept up the observance of the Jewish Sabbath. Rabbina, who lived about 150 years after the Christians had changed the day of rest to Sunday, could not quite understand the principle underlying Resh Laḳish's law, and, commenting upon it, added: "not even on Mondays [is the Gentile allowed to rest]"; intimating that the mandate given to the Noachidæ that "day and night shall not cease" ( לאשבתו="have no rest ") should be taken in a literal sense (Gen. viii. 22)
GENTILE - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

GOD'S ISRAEL ARE ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD

There is no such thing as Jew or Greek anymore. All who believe and follow God's Word are one in Christ. Israel in the OLD COVENANT were those from the seed of Abraham. In the NEW COVENANT, if you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise...

EPHESIANS 2:11-13 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

[12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

God's true ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are not by name only but all those in Christ. Those of the FLESH (sinful human nature) are not Abrahams seed but those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God in Christ are God's ISRAEL...

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...

COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

The New Covenant is for God's Israel...

EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.

and again...

JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Paul proclaims it here...

HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD.

If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12).

............

God's ISRAEL is the name given by God to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. GENTILES are now grafted in. If you are not a part of the God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT. Gentiles are now grafted in to God's ISRAEL *ROMANS 11:13-27

Hope this helps

​

 

[LoveGodsWord]

If you think that the text you quoted (Romans 7:7), is saying that the ten commandments only grant a knowledge of sin. Then you are mistaken, Paul says the law grants a knowledge of sin.

Try reading the post you are quoting from David. Where did I say in it that only God's 10 commandments give a knowledge of what sin is. God's WORD gives a knowledge of what sin is and that is what the scriptures provided to you say.

Matthew 7:12
In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

A condescending mindset is not what Jesus commanded. You must treat others the way that you wish to be treated, with respect and kindness. If you break this commandment that Jesus gave us, then that is definitely sin!

You seem to be very judgmental David. You were only provided God's WORD, now you seem have gotten upset by it and are judging my motives for sending it to you. Judging my motive for providing God's Word to you is not your role. The scriptures were provided only as a help to you. I will leave this between you and God.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The Seventh Day Adventists adhere to the historical grammatical interpretation of the scripture.

For some reason, you believe that this method of interpretation is a valid method of interpretation. Even though your three verses never actually state, that the ten commandments only grant a knowledge of sin.

You still hold to the tradition of the historical grammatical interpretation. Then accuse others of following men's traditions?

You follow the tradition of men in using this method of interpretation. Read it again slowly,
HISTORICAL grammatical interpretation.

This is the identical method of interpretation that the Catholic church uses. The Catholic church is traditional and historical.

I did not accuse you of anything. You have only been provided with God's WORD. If you feel convicted by the scriptures provided you need to consider these are God's WORD not mine. Maybe you should listen to God's WORD as we are to BELIEVE and FOLLOW them over man made traditions that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

 

[klutedavid]

I did not accuse you of anything. You have only been provided with God's WORD. If you feel convicted by the scriptures provided you need to consider these are God's WORD not mine. Maybe you should listen to God's WORD as we are to BELIEVE and FOLLOW them over man made traditions that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

Not God's WORD, this historical grammatical interpretation. That is an old method of interpretation, LGW. When did you get the idea that this historical method of interpretation, is a valid method of interpretation. Let alone elevating this historical way of reading the scripture, up to the level of God's WORD?

You have exceeded the boundaries of common sense. The law grants the knowledge of sin.
Sin is lawlessness, no amount of verse changing will establish your premise. The premise that the knowledge of sin is derived from just the ten commandments, that is a faulty interpretation.

You will treat others the way that you fully expect to be treated yourself, LGW.

 

[klutedavid]

I did not accuse you of anything. You have only been provided with God's WORD. If you feel convicted by the scriptures provided you need to consider these are God's WORD not mine. Maybe you should listen to God's WORD as we are to BELIEVE and FOLLOW them over man made traditions that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

Let me translate your post.

"I did not accuse you of anything. You have only been provided with God's WORD (you mean the historical grammatical interpretation). If you feel convicted by the scriptures provided you need to consider these are God's WORD (historical grammatical interpretation) not mine.

Not your interpretation you say, I just told you what method of interpretation your using. You chose to employ the historical grammatical interpretation, that is your choice.

Now for the accusations again.

"Maybe you should listen to God's WORD as we are to BELIEVE and FOLLOW them over man made traditions that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9."

Your certainly accusing me of not listening to your historical grammatical interpretation.

This interpretation of yours is the traditional interpretation. Then you accuse me of following men's traditions. You have created a paradox with this comment of yours.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Let me translate your post.

"I did not accuse you of anything. You have only been provided with God's WORD (you mean the historical grammatical interpretation). If you feel convicted by the scriptures provided you need to consider these are God's WORD (historical grammatical interpretation) not mine.

Not your interpretation you say, I just told you what method of interpretation your using. You chose to employ the historical grammatical interpretation, that is your choice.

Now for the accusations again.

"Maybe you should listen to God's WORD as we are to BELIEVE and FOLLOW them over man made traditions that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9."

Your certainly accusing me of not listening to your historical grammatical interpretation.

This interpretation of yours is the traditional interpretation. Then you accuse me of following men's traditions. You have created a paradox with this comment of yours.

Not really brother David I do not need a translator for my own post.

I do not follow anything except the scriptures prayerfully asking God for his Spirit to be my teacher and claim is promises *JOHN 14:26; 16:13; 7:17; 8:31-36; MATTHEW 6:33 comparing scripture with scripture *ISAIAH 28:10; MATTHEW 4:4; 2 TIMOTHY 3:16.

If you follow worldly methods of interpretation David without God's Spirit you will be dissappointed because the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God *1 CORINTHIANS 1:18-31; 1 CORINTHIANS 3:18-20.

You are free to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD or not. I do not judge you. It is the WORD of God that we are all accountable to God with come judgment day.

JOHN 12:47-48
[47], And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
[48], He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

We should BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. Jesus says those who follow the teaching and traditions of men that break the commandments of God are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

Hope this helps.

God's sheep hear his Voice (the Word of God)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You have exceeded the boundaries of common sense. The law grants the knowledge of sin. Sin is lawlessness, no amount of verse changing will establish your premise. The premise that the knowledge of sin is derived from just the ten commandments, that is a faulty interpretation.

Hello brother David,

You seem to be making things up that no one has said to you. You make the claim that I have changed the meaning of the scriptures provided to you in ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 4:17; ROMANS 14:23. Now prove your claims with God's WORD. If you cannot David is it you who is trying to change the meaning of the scriptures not me?

Try reading the posts and scriptures provided to you. Where have I ever said that it is only God's 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is?

Each of the scriptures provided to you earlier from ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 4:17; ROMANS 14:23 all showed various aspects of what sin is from breaking any of God's 10 Commandments to rejecting any of God's WORD.

This was already posted to you back in post #1081 linked to give you clarification yet you still continue to ignore the posts and the scriptures provided to you and say things that no one has said to you. Maybe you did not read the earlier posts? If you did why say things no one has said to you or make allegations you cannot prove by scripture alone?

Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

May God help you as you seek him through his Word.

 

[daydreamer40]

Here's what I think about the letter of the law, the law is about self-will and encourages self-will in dealing with sin, cause that's how God overcome or overcomes or stays above it, cause he is able and his will is supreme, and it is nothing to Him... But, we fall short of being him of course, and if any one of us tries to use self-will to deal with sin, we are either going to fail miserably or be greatly deceived, and be evil when we think we are good...

That's why we have the NC and the commands about Love and Faith, and God's great love and faith, I think... Were in the NC now, and I do not ever think one should try to get understanding about the OC, or OT, or the Old Law Covenant, without always seeing it through the lens or light of the NT, and NC, and NC commands... One should never try to do that IMO...

God Bless!

Hi
It is certainly true, that those who tried to follow the letter of the law were following self will to obey it. Few in OT times understood the truth. David loved God and delighted to do his will, he delighted in obeying God's laws, but though this was so, he did not have the mindset he could fully obey the letter of the law.:
Do not bring your servant into judgement, for no one living is righteous before you Psalms143:2
David followed after the Spirit of the law. He delighted in obeying God in his heart, and he followed God's ways, but knew, though he did this he would never fully obey the letter of the law in his humanity.
Contrast that with the Pharisees, they did try to obey the letter of the law, and actually, that approach took them far from God. They could only obey outwardly, on the inside they became totally corrupted, for they were not following the truth. Paul had tried to follow the letter of the law as a Pharisee, no one more than he would have tried to follow it, so from personal experience he knew: The letter kills 2Cor3:6
It is the same today, no one will faultlessly obey the letter of the law, but some still try to, whether they say they do it directly, or indirectly by loving others and so fulfilling the letter of the law. They will always fail for they never will perfectly love all others.
So when the bible speaks of overcoming sin/not committing sin we have to discern what is being written. It is not saying you must fully obey the letter of the law, for no man can or will do that, they will always sin according to the letter of what is written, hence 1John1:8.
David is another good example here. Though he could not obey the letter of the law he had peace with God. However, when he then committed adultery with Bathsheeba and was responsible for her innocent husband being killed, he could not then say: ''I cannot obey the letter of the law therefore everything is OK,'' then it was not.
So we have much to discern through what is written, don't we? And the example of David is still helpful to us today

 

[Saint Steven]

Should we make it about the ten, or the two...? or both...? How would both work...?

God Bless!

Don't you mean the ten, or the two, or the 613?
The commandment, "you shall not defraud" (Lev.19:13) is not found in the Ten or the two, it is found in the 613.

The scope of commandments Jesus is referring to is the WHOLE law.
If the two are about the Ten, then the ten are about the 613.
The law is a singular thing. You are either under it, or not under it.
Your choice. I recommend grace instead.

Mark 10:19
You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”

Leviticus 19:13
“‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor. “‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Don't you mean the ten, or the two, or the 613?
The commandment, "you shall not defraud" (Lev.19:13) is not found in the Ten or the two, it is found in the 613.

The scope of commandments Jesus is referring to is the WHOLE law.
If the two are about the Ten, then the ten are about the 613.
The law is a singular thing. You are either under it, or not under it.
Your choice. I recommend grace instead.

Mark 10:19
You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”

Leviticus 19:13
“‘Do not defraud or rob your neighbor. “‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired worker overnight.

Now Steve, your getting a bit sidetracked. How many commandments are there in the 10 Commandments? Hint: *EXODUS 34:28; DEUTERONOMY 4:13; DEUTERONOMY 10:4. What sums up the 10 Commandments? *MATTHEW 22:36-40; ROMANS 13:8-10. LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD, not the breaking of it. Those who break God's LAW do not know God *1 JOHN 2:3-4.

DEFRAUD is lying and stealing which is breaking the 8th and 9th commandment *EXODUS 20:15-16.

This is why Jesus says "ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS [OF LOVE TO GOD and MAN] HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS. You cannot separate God's 10 Commandments from LOVE they are the very expression of what LOVE is.

Hope this helps.

 

[Saint Steven]

Now Steve, your getting a bit sidetracked. How many commandments are there in the 10 Commandments? Hint: *EXODUS 34:28; DEUTERONOMY 4:13; DEUTERONOMY 10:4. What sums up the 10 Commandments? *MATTHEW 22:36-40; ROMANS 13:8-10. LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD, not the breaking of it. Those who break God's LAW do not know God *1 JOHN 2:3-4.

DEFRAUD is lying and stealing which is breaking the 8th and 9th commandment *EXODUS 20:15-16.

This is why Jesus says "ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS [OF LOVE TO GOD and MAN] HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS. You cannot separate God's 10 Commandments from LOVE they are the very expression of what LOVE is.

Hope this helps.

Were the Ten Commandments engraved in letters on stone? (2 Cor.3:6-11)

How could the transitory ministry that brought death and condemnation be "the very expression of what LOVE is"?

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Were the Ten Commandments engraved in letters on stone? (2 Cor.3:6-11) 2 Corinthians 3:6-11 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts

Dear Steve

If you do not know what the OLD COVENANT is how can you know what the NEW COVENANT is? Your error is in thinking that God's eternal law is the same as the Shadow laws from the BOOK of the COVENANT that point to Jesus and God's plan of salvation.

EXODUS 24:7 [7] And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the hearing of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

Do you understand the purpose of God's eternal law (10 commandments) in leading us to chrsit that we might be justified by faith to walk in God's Spirit *GALATIANS 3:22-25? This is the NEW MINISTRATION of 2 CORINTHIANS 3:6-11.

If you have never known the laws written on stone how can they lead you to the law written in the heart through the Spirit *2 CORINTHIANS 3:3; HEBREWS 8:10-12? How can you know the ministration of the Spirit that excels the ministration of condemnation *2 CORINTHIANS 3:9-11?

If your lamp has gone out when the road is dark and narrow how will you find your way *PROVERBS 6:23? This is the same as those who have broken or lost their mirror *JAMES 1:23. They forget who they are only having a form of godliness they deny God's power *2 TIMOTHY 3:6. Do you know these scriptures Steve?

How could the transitory ministry that brought death and condemnation be "the very expression of what LOVE is"?

Because they are written on the heart through love and love is the fulfilling of God's LAW in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10; ROMANS 3:31.

Now Steve, look at the scriptures you deny above. If you love your nrighbore will you steal from them; commit adultery with your neighbores partner; kill and lie to your neighbore?

ROAMNS 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. [9], For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then ABOLISH THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

I will pray for you brother. God's 10 Commandments are not abolished as you are teaching Steve and we all will be judged by them come judgment day if we knowingly continue to break them

 

[daydreamer40]

Were the Ten Commandments engraved in letters on stone? (2 Cor.3:6-11)

How could the transitory ministry that brought death and condemnation be "the very expression of what LOVE is"?

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

There seems to be quite a curious belief supported by some. When Paul writes of not being justified by works of the law, obeying the law, they say this refers to not being under the condemnation of the law. However, they then add, you are only not under the condemnation of the law, this only applies if you do not break the law. Which would make Pauls statement meaningless. For no one is under the condemnation of any law if they do not break it.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There seems to be quite a curious belief supported by some. When Paul writes of not being justified by works of the law, obeying the law, they say this refers to not being under the condemnation of the law. However, they then add, you are only not under the condemnation of the law, this only applies if you do not break the law. Which would make Pauls statement meaningless. For no one is under the condemnation of any law if they do not break it.

Hello daydreamer40,

Why are you making things up that no one is saying here? Who is saying that anyone is justified by obeying God's Law? If no one is saying this then why pretend that they are?

We are only saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves, it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8.

Many do not know the meaning of grace. Some think it is a license to sin making Pauls statements meaningless. They ignore the scriptures showing that grace is for OBEDIENCE to the faith *ROMANS 1:5; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 13:8-10.

There seems to be a stranger belief by some that God's LAW has been abolished and all are free to ignore the consequences of breaking God's LAW (10 Commandments). Out of sight out of mind they preach. The law has been done away they say. They do not know the scriptures that teach, those who live without the law shall also perish without the law and those who live by the law shall be judged by the law *ROMANS 2:12-13 and the wages of sin is death in ALL those who reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

It is only those who break God's LAW who are UNDER THE LAW as they are condemned by it *ROMANS 3:19-20. What is hard to understand? Unless you believe Paul is a liar? Than your belief is between you and God as we will all need to answer to God come judgment day *JOHN 12:47-48.

None enter into God's KINGDOM while KNOWINGLY BREAKING ANY of God's commandments *HEBREWS 10:26-27; JAMES 2:8-12; ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 6:4-8

Tick tock, tick tock.. time is running out ready or not here I come. Who will be ready?

My prayer is that you and everyone here will be. May God help you as you seek him through his WORD.

 

[Saint Steven]

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Hi Steve, thanks for sharing love these scriptures.

2 COR 3: 1-12

2 CORINTHIANS 3:1-10
[1], Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
[2], You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
[3], Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.
[4], And such trust have we through Christ toward God:
[5], Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[6], Who also has made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
[7], But if the ministry of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[8], How shall not the ministry of the Spirit be more glorious?
[9], For if the ministry of condemnation be glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness exceed in glory.
[10], For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels.

Now take a look at v3 highlighted in RED which is the CONTEXT or what follows.

Now take a look at the NEW COVENANT promise from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and repeated by the same same author as Corinthians in Hebrews 8:10-12 and 10:16-17

Hebrews 8:10-12
[10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
[12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

2 Corinthians 3 is talking about the NEW COVENANT of God's LAW written on the heart through LOVE by His Spirit. Moving from the tables of stone to the fleshly tables of the heart (2 Cor 3:3; Hebrews 8:10)

Let's look at the scriptures laid out together side by side...

2 CORINTHIANS 3:3, [3], Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.

links to...

Hebrews 8:10 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

links to...

JEREMIAH 31:33 [33], But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, said the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

links to...

EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

links to...

2 CORINTHIANS 3:3 [3], Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.

continuing in Ezekiel 36..

[27], And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.

God's Spirit of love...

ROAMNS 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. [9], For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

ROMANS 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

.................

CONCLUSION: 2 Cor 3 is talking about the NEW COVENANT of LOVE written on the heart to walk in God's LAW, through LOVE. It is NOT talking about ABOLISHING God's LAW it is talking about FULFILLING God's LAW in those who BELIEVE God's WORD. This is RIGHTEOUSNESS (Salvation) by FAITH for a SINNER that BELIEVES the WORD'S of the SAVIOUR (JESUS). What is being ABOLISHED is the condemnation and the penalty of sin [DEATH] through FAITH in Christ by walking in the Spirit under the NEW COVENANT.

.................

SIN is still the same as it has always been which is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

Yep many going to be dissappointed come judgment day.

 

[Saint Steven]

Disappointed come judgment day? Not me.

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.