IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)

[Dave L]

Where does it state that the Sabbath is not to be kept?? Is murder OK today? Is stealing OK today? Is adultery OK today? Is coveting OK today? Is taking the name of God in vain OK today? Which of the 10 commandments are OK to break today and still be saved?? It seems the only one that anyone has any trouble with is the 4th. The only one that states to remember--the only one that says why it is to be kept--the only one that says it is to commemorate creation. What is the problem with this one commandment that people do not want to follow?

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The question is, where does it say we need to keep any sabbath? The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. The New replaced them. We are not under ANY of the Old Covenant. We use it only for instruction and commentary.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hello discipler7,

Here you go let me highlight the key sections of ACTS 15 and you tell me how anything that I have said is adding to scripture?

................

You need to go back to the CONTEXT of the chapter to understand what ACTS 15 is talking about here to define the topic of conversation that the chapter is trying to address. Let's determine the topic of conversation and the question that the chapter is trying to decide on.

ACTS 15:1:21
[1], And certain men who came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except you be circumcised after the manner of Moses, you cannot be saved.

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NOTE: ACTS 15:1 is the question that needs to be answered and the topic of conversation and CONTEXT of the chapter of ACTS 15. Here we have Jewish believers coming to Paul and Barnabas saying if the new GENTILES believers are not circumcised and made proselytes then they cannot be saved. This is the chapter context and issue of contention.

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[2], When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

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NOTE: ACTS 15:2 there was much arguing over the claims of the Jewish believers who are claiming that unless the gentiles are circumcised they cannot be saved. They then determined that Paul and Barnabas must go to Jerusalem to the Apostles and elders ABOUT THIS QUESTION. Which question? Weather your salvation depends on being CIRCUMCISED.

They then travelled to Jerusalem about this question to determine if new gentile believers needed to be CIRCUMCISED in order to be saved. Once they got to Jerusalem, the question was then asked and the discussion continued with the Pharasees stating their cas first..

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[5], But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

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NOTE: KEEP in mind here the question was never over if gentile believers should obey God's 10 Commandments but to keep the Shadow laws of Moses, in this case CIRCUMCISION as a means of salvation.

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[6], And the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
[7], And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, you know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
[8], And God, who knows the hearts, bore them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us;

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NOTE: After much discussion between the Apostles, Peter then rose up showing that God gave the gentile believers the Holy Spirit being uncircumcised.

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[9], And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
[10], Now therefore why test God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
[11], But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

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NOTE: They came to the conclusion then that salvation is not by being circumcised but be what circumcision pointed to. A new heart by faith. This is made plain latter in other scripture written by PAUL here...

ROMANS 2 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

If ACTS 15 was talking about the 10 Commandments then Pauls writings in to the CORITHIANS do not make any sense.

1 CORITHIANS 7 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

The scripture above is a contradiction of how some interpret the outcome of ACTS 15

You do not believe brother Der Alter, that we are now free to break any of God's 10 Commandments now do you?

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[12], Then all the multitude kept silence, and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring what miracles and wonders God had done among the Gentiles by them.
[13], And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
[14], Simeon has declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
[15], And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
[16], After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
[17], That the rest of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, says the Lord, who does all these things.
[18], Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
[19], Therefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them, who from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
[20], But that we write unto them, that they abstain from defilements of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
[21], For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

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CONCLUSION So the conclusion of the matter. v19-20 We are not to trouble the new gentile believers with CIRCUMCISION as a means of salvation. They are new converts they will learn more about God as Moses is preached when? EVERY SABBATH. WE just tell the new believers because they will be learning every Sabbath to abstain from defilements of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Hope this helps.

At the counsel at Jerusalem, the apostles said this,

"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).​

Now, pay careful close attention here to this next verse.

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).​

Now, I want you to really pay close attention to the apostle's response to this.

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment" (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).​

to...whom...we...gave...no....such....commandment.

Yeah, that sounds pretty clear to me that we do not have to keep the Law of Moses. It says that there are Pharisees who said we:

(a) Must be circumcised (See verse 24).
(b) And keep the Law (See verse 24) (The Law here is in reference to the Law of Moses (See verse 5)).​

Now, I do not know how you do backflips around these above verses, but you have to do that in order to make your belief true that says we must keep the Law of Moses (When the above Scripture says we are not to do so).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Sorry, logic dictates that Sabbath days would include the weekly Sabbath because a weekly Sabbath is a Sabbath like all the other Sabbaths. Besides, Paul says in another place:

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Romans 14:5).​

Paul is not saying, you must esteem only the day of the Sabbath and it is a requirement to keep it.

Jason where is the Sabbath mentioned in Romans 14? If you cannot show scripture are you reading into the chapter something that it is not saying? Happy to go through it verse by verse if you like to show topic of conversation. Romans 14 is about food and fasting connected to days that men esteem over other days. Not what days God esteems. God's 10 commandments are no where mentioned in the whole chapter.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

At the counsel at Jerusalem, the apostles said this,

"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).​

Now, pay careful close attention here to this next verse.

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).​

Now, I want you to really pay close attention to the apostle's response to this.

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment" (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).​

to...whom...we...gave...no....such....commandment.

Yeah, that sounds pretty clear to me that we do not have to keep the Law of Moses. It says that there are Pharisees who said we:

(a) Must be circumcised (See verse 24).
(b) And keep the Law (See verse 24) (The Law here is in reference to the Law of Moses (See verse 5)).​

Now, I do not know how you do backflips around these above verses, but you have to do that in order to make your belief true that says we must keep the Law of Moses (When the above Scripture says we are not to do so).

My dear brother, the Mosaic book of the covenant is not the 10 Commandments. You mix up your shadow laws with God's eternal law. Where is CIRCUMCISION written in the 10 commandments?

There are many laws written in the Mosaic book of the covenant. When the word law is used how do you know what it is being referred to? You need to look at the CONTEXT. ACTS 15:1 established context that it is not the 10 commandments being in question here. It is the shadow laws from the book of the law (Was CIRCUMCISION a requirement for salvation and following Gods WORD).

I suggest you read this earlier post here, CLICK ME

Hope this helps

 

[mmksparbud]

Sorry, logic dictates that Sabbath days would include the weekly Sabbath because a weekly Sabbath is a Sabbath like all the other Sabbaths. Besides, Paul says in another place:

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Romans 14:5).​

Paul is not saying, you must esteem only the day of the Sabbath and it is a requirement to keep it.

Logic dictates that the entire passage be read in context. It is Paul talking to the Christians about not allowing the Jews to intimidate them about their new freedom from the ceremonial laws. It is the Jewish feast days that are no longer needed. It was never the 10 commandments, the moral law, that were done away with--it is the sacrificial laws, the Law of Moses, written by Moses. The 10 were written by the very hand of God, on stone and were the ones that were kept in the ark, the ceremonial laws were kept outside the ark. Jesus is our High Priest now, therefore the ceremonial laws are no longer need which required a High priest--the 10 never required a priest. The 4th commandment never was a shadow of things to come as it pointed not to the future but to the past--to the very end of the creation week.

 

[mmksparbud]

Double post

 

[mmksparbud]

The question is, where does it say we need to keep any sabbath? The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. The New replaced them. We are not under ANY of the Old Covenant. We use it only for instruction and commentary.

The question is where does it say we no longer need to keep the Sabbath? The question is where does it say it is Ok now to murder, to lie, to steal, to commit adultery--again--why is it only the 4th that people have a problem with?

This site is having problems---very annoying. Hope it gets fixed.

 

[mmksparbud]

The question is, where does it say we need to keep any sabbath? The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. The New replaced them. We are not under ANY of the Old Covenant. We use it only for instruction and commentary.

The question is where does it say we no longer need to keep the Sabbath? The question is where does it say it is Ok now to murder, to lie, to steal, to commit adultery--again--why is it only the 4th that people have a problem with?

This site is having problems---very annoying. Hope it gets fixed.

 

[Dave L]

The question is where does it say we no longer need to keep the Sabbath? The question is where does it say it is Ok now to murder, to lie, to steal, to commit adultery--again--why is it only the 4th that people have a problem with?

This site is having problems---very annoying. Hope it gets fixed.

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. The New Covenant replaced them. The New Covenant does not import the Sabbath. But it imports not killing, or stealing etc.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. The New Covenant replaced them. The New Covenant does not import the Sabbath. But it imports not killing, or stealing etc.

And so were the Shadow laws from the Mosaic book of the covenant. But you ignore this. How can you know what the new covneant is Dave if you do not know what the OLD Covenant is? It is the 10 Commandments and the Mosaic book of the covenant that made up the OLD COVENANT. You mix up your shadow laws with God's eternal laws that give us a knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS that lead us to Christ.

 

[Dave L]

And so were the Shadow laws from the Mosaic book of the covenant. But you ignore this. How can you know what the new covneant is Dave if you do not know what the OLD Covenant is?

Are you breaking the Ten Commandments by accusing me of not knowing what the Old Covenant is. Especially after I presented scripture that clearly defines it?

 

[mmksparbud]

The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. The New Covenant replaced them. The New Covenant does not import the Sabbath. But it imports not killing, or stealing etc.

The new covenant is not having to kill animals to be cleansed from sin--it is the blood of Jesus shed at the cross that does it now. Again--please answer the question---where does it say that it is OK to break the commandments--any of them, be unrepentant and still be saved?? If you believe that you can murder and steal and do all that the commandments say not do and still be saved--you are in for a big, huge, unhappy surprise. All that is required here, is the verse that states "No longer is the Sabbath to be kept."

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Are you breaking the Ten Commandments by accusing me of not knowing what the Old Covenant is. Especially after I presented scripture that clearly defines it?

Dave the problem was that you did not present scripture that clearly defines what the OLD COVENANT was. After you posted what you believe was the OLD COVENANT you were posted scripture showing that what you presented was only half the story. The OLD COVENANT also includes the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant. You left this out of your presentation. When questioned further about it you choose to ignore the scripture posted as a help. Are you breaking the 10 Commandment by ignoring scripture posted to you that shows you that you left out the other half of what makes up the OLD COVENANT in the Mosaic book of the covenant?

Please see post # 50 linked.

Dave I think it is fine we will have to agree to disagree my friend. You ignore scripture that is posted to you as a help. There is no way to have a discussion with you from what I see. You are free to believe as you wish we all answer only to God come judgment day.

 

[Dave L]

Are you breaking the 10 Commandment by ignoring scripture posted to you that shows you that you left out the other half of what makes up the OLD COVENANT in the Mosaic book of the covenant?

Dave I think it is fine we will have to agree to disagree my friend. You ignore scripture that is posted to you as a help. There is no way to have a discussion with you from what I see. You are free to believe as you wish we all answer only to God come judgment day.

You are enslaved to an obsolete set of rules. If you have the Holy Spirit, you won't want to steal or murder. The wicked Jews kept the Ten Commandments, just as anyone can. But never for the right reasons. God threatened them with death for disobedience. And promised temporal rewards that harnessed their greed resulting in their obedience.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You are enslaved to an obsolete set of rules. If you have the Holy Spirit, you won't want to steal or murder. The wicked Jews kept the Ten Commandments, just as anyone can. But never for the right reasons. God threatened them with death for disobedience. And promised temporal rewards that harnessed their greed resulting in their obedience.

Nope not really Dave. Only those who break God's LAW are enslaved to sin. Those who continue to practice known UNREPENTANT sin will not enter into God's KINGDOM (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Thanks for sharing

 

[Dave L]

Nope not really Dave. Only those who break God's LAW are enslaved to sin. Those who continue to practice known UNREPENTANT sin will not enter into God's KINGDOM (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Thanks for sharing

Love fulfills the law...... Legalism is sin because it doesn't involve love.

 

[mmksparbud]

You are enslaved to an obsolete set of rules. If you have the Holy Spirit, you won't want to steal or murder. The wicked Jews kept the Ten Commandments, just as anyone can. But never for the right reasons. God threatened them with death for disobedience. And promised temporal rewards that harnessed their greed resulting in their obedience.

Why do you not answer my questions and where is the verse I asked for?

What is your answer to these verses?

Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
All you have to do is post the verses that say we can break God's commandments and be saved.
You are posting opinion, not scripture.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Love fulfills the law...... Legalism is sin because it doesn't involve love.

Indeed LOVE does fulfill the law. If you LOVE then you will not break it. As Jesus says "ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW and the prophets (Matthew 22:36-40). If you have no law you have no LOVE because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW in those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD.

 

[Yarddog]

Hello brother Yarddog,

Thanks for sharing your thought here and so nice to meet you 

Hello, nice to meet you as well.

So where does it say in God's Word that Jesus is a Sabbath?

I don't think that I said that Jesus is a Sabbath but Sabbath means "a rest" in Hebrew. God gave the Jews a day of rest but not God's rest, as Paul tells us. They could not enter into his rest.

I see he is the LORD of the Sabbath but the scriptures only teach that the Sabbath is a day that we rest in him on the SEVENTH DAY of the week.

The Sabbath is usually considered the 7th day but it can also refer to any day in which Jews are called to rest.

As far as God's Word, that is Jesus Christ. Anything which Jesus Christ, the Word, reveals to the world is his Gospel. Scripture is a very important part of that but not all of it. As I wrote in my first post that I was telling about what God said to me and that is as good as scripture or I should say better than scripture because it reveals the truth about the written word for those that he speaks to.

May God bless you.

 

[Dave L]

Why do you not answer my questions and where is the verse I asked for?

What is your answer to these verses?

Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
All you have to do is post the verses that say we can break God's commandments and be saved.

You need to prove your point using scripture. An absence of sabbath keeping in the NT answers my claims.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My dear brother, the Mosaic book of the covenant is not the 10 Commandments. You mix up your shadow laws with God's eternal law. Where is CIRCUMCISION written in the 10 commandments?

There are many laws written in the Mosaic book of the covenant. When the word law is used how do you know what it is being referred to? You need to look at the CONTEXT. ACTS 15:1 established context that it is not the 10 commandments being in question here. It is the shadow laws from the book of the law.

I suggest you read this earlier post here, CLICK ME

Hope this helps

You are not getting it. The 10 Commandments is a part of the Law of Moses. The Saturday Sabbath IS a ceremonial law and not a moral law. A moral law is any law that you know to do instinctively in your heart in regards to doing good or in loving your neighbor. A ceremonial law is any law that you observe some kind of ceremony. You would not know about the Sabbath without God telling you about it.

When you say that the Saturday Sabbath or a weekly Sabbath is necessary to keep or it is sin, you are creating a command in the New Testament that does not exist. You are going back to the Law of Moses by saying you have to keep the Saturday Sabbath because the 10 commandments refer to the Saturday Sabbath and not the new altered Sabbath version law that you are referring to. When you tell people they have to keep the 10, you are saying they have to keep the Saturday Sabbath (Which is no longer binding upon believers). No command is ever given to New Covenant believers in the New Testament to keep the Saturday Sabbath. This is where you fall into error, my friend. It's very serious.

 

[Dave L]

Indeed LOVE does fulfill the law. If you LOVE then you will not break it. As Jesus says "ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW and the prophets (Matthew 22:36-40). If you have no law you have no LOVE.

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Logic dictates that the entire passage be read in context. It is Paul talking to the Christians about not allowing the Jews to intimidate them about their new freedom from the ceremonial laws. It is the Jewish feast days that are no longer needed. It was never the 10 commandments, the moral law, that were done away with--it is the sacrificial laws, the Law of Moses, written by Moses. The 10 were written by the very hand of God, on stone and were the ones that were kept in the ark, the ceremonial laws were kept outside the ark. Jesus is our High Priest now, therefore the ceremonial laws are no longer need which required a High priest--the 10 never required a priest. The 4th commandment never was a shadow of things to come as it pointed not to the future but to the past--to the very end of the creation week.

The Saturday Sabbath IS a ceremonial law. A ceremony is like an observance of something. You perform certain ceremonies in regards to that Law. Do you not perform certain ceremonial duties on the Sabbath? Sure you do. It's why it is a ceremonial law and not a Moral Law. A Moral Law is any law you instinctively know to do without anyone telling you to do it. It is the law of doing good and or loving others. Jesus focused on the Moral Law like loving God and loving your neighbor.

Some folks here are saying you have to keep some new quasi altered weekly Sabbath day. Yet, they contradict themselves and say that you have to keep the 10 and within the 10, it referred to the Saturday Sabbath and not the new version that some are referring to here.

Saying we have to keep the 10 is like saying we have to still keep the Law of Moses because you are saying the Saturday Sabbath is still binding. So should a person be killed for collecting sticks on the Saturday Sabbath? This is what must be if you believe the Old Testament Saturday Sabbath is broken. It is the Old way and not the New way. Jesus is now our Sabbath rest. Sure, you can keep the Sabbath, but it is not for salvation and it is not a requirement.

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that I do believe we have to keep the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not steal, and do not covet, etc.) in order to continue to be right with God after we are saved by God's grace (When we come to Jesus seeking His forgiveness and believing in His death and resurrection for salvation).

 

[Dan the deacon]

Where does Scripture say that God will judge Gentiles by the Law?

It doesn't
The law was written to the O T Jews and not to gentiles.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You need to prove your point using scripture. An absence of sabbath keeping in the NT answers my claims.

Why does he need to when you have not proved your point with scripture and when scripture is posted to you then you choose to ignore it?

Please see post # 50 linked.

Sorry all, I will be back at another time late my side and the website or my PC keeps double posting. 99 All thanks for sharing your thoughts. I will be back latter to respond

Hope this helps.