IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)

[LoveGodsWord]

The evidence indicates that what you are saying is simply not true.

There is no way that you are composing your responses on the fly. Each post is time stamped. You only have time to copy/paste from a database. Why wouldn't you be truthful about that? It's not wrong to copy/paste, but to hide the truth with a false story is an entirely different thing.

Believe as you wish I have already told you what I do in my posting in earlier posts and been truthful to you. It matters little to me if you believe me or not.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That has nothing to do with the scripture in question. And obviously you have NO IDEA what biblical context is.

Try again. But be honest this time. Thanks. This is God's WORD we are talking about.

Galatians 4:21-31
Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

Well that is not true Steve.

It has everything to do with the question. Try reading it slowly and pray about it. What you really mean is that it does not agree with your teaching that God's 10 Commandments are abolished right?

Repost...

Not a problem let's look at this one...

You are not considering the context and the other scriptures you posted earlier that say the same thing and that is RIGHTOUESNESS is not from the LAW (10 Commandments) it is from FAITH in CHRIST (God's Word).

To be "UNDER THE LAW" in this context is to seek to get your own RIGHTEOUSNESS by trying to obey God's LAW when all God's LAW does is reveal sin. Paul is showing through the covenants [Hagar and Sarah are an alegory of the OLD AND NEW COVENANTS v24] that RIGHTOUESNESS is by FAITH and not by the LAW.

The LAW (10 commandments and the Mosaic BOOK) is not where we get RIGHTOUESNESS because as PAUL says elsewhere there is NONE RIGHTEOUS NO NOT ONE (Romans 3:10). The purpose of God's LAW is only to give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS (Romans 3:20; James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172). It is the schoolmaster that leads us to the Cross of Christ that we might be forgiven by FAITH (Galatians 3:22-25).

RIGHTEOUSNESS is by FAITH in the WORD of GOD alone and not from the deeds of the law. If you are trying to be righteous through the LAW then all you will see is your sins and the wages of sin is death because you have not accepted the gift of God's dear son (Romans 6:23).

The scriptures are not saying God's LAW is Abolsihed Steve it is saying RIGHTEOUSNESS is by FAITH in Christ and not the LAW the works of the LAW. This is the topic of discussion and subject matter of v21-31.

Bondage is to sin (John 8:34). God's LAW just shows it (Romans 3:20). Jesus wants to save us from it (John 8:36).

Hope this helps (written on the fly)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So you ignore that Christ setup a Church not a book.

Not at all my friend. I disagree that the Roman Catholic Church (or any Church) replaces God's WORD. It is God's WORD alone that is to govern the Church. I am sorry my friend I cannot take credit for God's WORD. It is God's WORD not mine and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. We are all held accountable to God come judgment day for not beliving his WORD and breaking his commandments (Hebrews 10:26-27; John 12:47-48).

 

[Tutorman]

Not at all my friend. I disagree that the Roman Catholic Church (or any Church) replaces God's WORD. It is God's WORD alone that is to govern the Church. I am sorry my friend I cannot take credit for God's WORD. It is God's WORD not mine and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. We are all held accountable to God come judgment day for not beliving his WORD and breaking his commandments (Hebrews 10:26-27; John 12:47-48).

So who said that God's Word or the Bible because God's Word is Christ not the Bible. (John 1:1). I want you to show me from the Bible that the Bible is to govern the Church, go ahead I will wait. I want to se those exact words "The Bible is to govern the Church" not your ideas of what the Buble says plus I want you to prove historically in the Early Church when there was no Bible that the Bible is to "Groven the Church"

 

[Saint Steven]

Well that is not true Steve.

It has everything to do with the question. Try reading it slowly and pray about it. What you really mean is that it does not agree with your teaching that God's 10 Commandments are abolished right?

Repost...

Not a problem let's look at this one...

You are not considering the context and the other scriptures you posted earlier that say the same thing and that is RIGHTOUESNESS is not from the LAW (10 Commandments) it is from FAITH in CHRIST (God's Word).

To be "UNDER THE LAW" in this context is to seek to get your own RIGHTEOUSNESS by trying to obey God's LAW when all God's LAW does is reveal sin. Paul is showing through the covenants [Hagar and Sarah are an alegory of the OLD AND NEW COVENANTS v24] that RIGHTOUESNESS is by FAITH and not by the LAW.

The LAW (10 commandments and the Mosaic BOOK) is not where we get RIGHTOUESNESS because as PAUL says elsewhere there is NONE RIGHTEOUS NO NOT ONE (Romans 3:10). The purpose of God's LAW is only to give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS (Romans 3:20; James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172). It is the schoolmaster that leads us to the Cross of Christ that we might be forgiven by FAITH (Galatians 3:22-25).

RIGHTEOUSNESS is by FAITH in the WORD of GOD alone and not from the deeds of the law. If you are trying to be righteous through the LAW then all you will see is your sins and the wages of sin is death because you have not accepted the gift of God's dear son (Romans 6:23).

The scriptures are not saying God's LAW is Abolsihed Steve it is saying RIGHTEOUSNESS is by FAITH in Christ and not the LAW the works of the LAW. This is the topic of discussion and subject matter of v21-31.

Bondage is to sin (John 8:34). God's LAW just shows it (Romans 3:20). Jesus wants to save us from it (John 8:36).

Hope this helps (written on the fly)

Still nothing about the passage in question. Better find out what the "therefore" is there for. (vs 31)

Galatians 4:30-31
But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So who said that God's Word or the Bible because God's Word is Christ not the Bible. (John 1:1). I want you to show me from the Bible that the Bible is to govern the Church, go ahead I will wait. I want to se those exact words "The Bible is to govern the Church" not your ideas of what the Buble says plus I want you to prove historically in the Early Church when there was no Bible that the Bible is to "Groven the Church"

Ok no problem. The word CHURCH in the GREEK is ἐκκλησία which means; a Calling out or an assembly of believers. So God's Church are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. Now God also calls his CHURCH [the called out assembly of believers], ISRAEL in the OLD AND NEW COVENANT scriptures.

The HEBREW meaning of ISRAEL is; Hebrew ישׂראל which means; he will rule as God ; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel. So ISRAEL are GOD'S people who will rule with God.

In the NEW COVENANT ISRAEL [God's Church] is all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD.

Let's look at the scriptures...

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Now listen to Jesus talking to the Jews...

JOHN 8:31-39
[31], Then said Jesus to those Jews who believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;
[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
[33], They answered him, We are Abraham's descendants, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free?
[34], Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.
[35], And the servant abides not in the house forever: but the Son abides ever.
[36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
[37], I know that you are Abraham's descendant; but you seek to kill me, because my word has no place in you.
[38], I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and you do that which you have seen with your father.
[39], They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said unto them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

Jesus is saying the same thing as Paul in ROMANS 9:6-8 above. God's ISRAEL under the NEW COVENANT is not being a decendent of Abraham it is CONTINUING in God's WORD by BELIEVING and FOLLOWING it.

The children of the promise are counted for the seed (ROMANS 9:8) ...

HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:[11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.[12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

continuing this same line of thinking from Jesus and Paul earlier...

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

.....................

CONCLUSION: God's true Church [or God's ISRAEL] is all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. If you do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD'S WORD you are not a part of God's Church. A "CHURCH orginization is not God's Chuch it is only those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. The called out who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God and will rule with God.

Your demands are for nothing that is written in God's WORD.

PSALMS 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee

MATTHEW 4:4 Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.


Hope this helps...

May God bless you all as you seek him through his Word

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Still nothing about the passage in question. Better find out what the "therefore" is there for. (vs 31)

Galatians 4:30-31
But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

Indeed it is hard to see what you do not want to. Already discussed in post # 402 linked click me and elsewhere. No need for repeat yourself please feel free to adress the linked post and show how it is not true if you like? v24 these two women are an allegory: for these are the two covenants. We do not have rightouesness from the LAW but by FAITH in God's WORD.

 

[Tutorman]

Ok no problem. The word CHURCH in the GREEK is ἐκκλησία which means; a Calling out or an assembly of believers. So God's Church are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. Now God also calls his CHURCH [the called out assembly of believers], ISRAEL in the OLD AND NEW COVENANT scriptures.

The HEBREW meaning of ISRAEL is; Hebrew ישׂראל which means; he will rule as God ; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel. So ISRAEL are GOD'S people who will rule with God.

In the NEW COVENANT ISRAEL [God's Church] is all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD.

Let's look at the scriptures...

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Now listen to Jesus talking to the Jews...

JOHN 8:31-39
[31], Then said Jesus to those Jews who believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;
[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
[33], They answered him, We are Abraham's descendants, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free?
[34], Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.
[35], And the servant abides not in the house forever: but the Son abides ever.
[36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
[37], I know that you are Abraham's descendant; but you seek to kill me, because my word has no place in you.
[38], I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and you do that which you have seen with your father.
[39], They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said unto them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

Jesus is saying the same thing as Paul in ROMANS 9:6-8 above. God's ISRAEL under the NEW COVENANT is not being a decendent of Abraham it is CONTINUING in God's WORD by BELIEVING and FOLLOWING it.

The children of the promise are counted for the seed (ROMANS 9:8) ...

HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:[11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.[12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

continuing this same line of thinking from Jesus and Paul earlier...

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

.....................

CONCLUSION: God's true Church [or God's ISRAEL] is all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. If you do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD'S WORD you are not a part of God's Church. A "CHURCH orginization is not God's Chuch it is only those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. The called out who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God and will rule with God.

Hope this helps...

May God bless you all as you seek him through his Word

Try again. I specifically told you not your interpretation and what do you do? The exact opposite. I want you to show specifically that the Bible say "the Bible Governs the Church" I do not want what you or your church thinks but real proof that that Bible says "The Bible governs the Church". Absolutely nothing you posted says the "the Bible is to govern the church" and remember God's Word is Christ not the Bible (John 1)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Try again. I specifically told you not your interpretation and what do you do? The exact opposite. I want you to show specifically that the Bible say "the Bible Governs the Church" I do not want what you or your church thinks but real proof that that Bible says "The Bible governs the Church". Absolutely nothing you posted says the "the Bible is to govern the church" and remember God's Word is Christ not the Bible (John 1)

Read the scriptures. If you ignore the scriptures and the GREEK word meaning for CHURCH posted in post # 406 above linked click me I cannot help you sorry. Without Faith in Gods WORD you have no salvation for it is impossible to please God. You are free to believe and follow the teachings and traditions of men or follow the Word of God. It is God's WORD however that will be our judge come judgment day.

...........

JOHN 12:47-48 [47], And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. [48], He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

MATTHEW 4:4 Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Only God's WORD is true if you do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD the scriptures teach you are not a part of God's Church.

May God help you as you seek him through his Word.

 

[Tutorman]

Read the scriptures. If you ignore the scriptures and the GREEK and HEBREWS word meaning for CHURCH posted in post # 406 above linked click me I cannot help you sorry. Without Faith in Gods WORD you have no salvation.

MATTHEW 4:4 Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Only God's WORD is true if you do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD the scriptures teach you are not a part of God's Church.

Still you showed no evidence at all the Bible is to govern the Church. None of those verse says the the "Bible is to govern the Church" and you have not addressed how the Church functioned when there was not a bible in the very early Church. I agree we are to have faith in God's WORD because God's Word is Christ not the Bible (John 1)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Still you showed no evidence at all the Bible is to govern the Church. None of those verse says the the "Bible is to govern the Church" and you have not addressed how the Church functioned when there was not a bible in the very early Church. I agree we are to have faith because God's WORD is Christ not the Bible (John 1)

Indeed it is hard to see when you will not consider the scriptures posted earlier. You are free to believe as you wish. I do not judge you and I am sorry I cannot help you further my friend. We will need to agree to disagree if you do not believe the scriptures posted.

Jesus already gave us warnings in Matthew 15:3-9 that those who follow the teachings and traditions of men over the Word of God are not following God.

MATTHEW 15:3-9
3, But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4, For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
5, But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift devoted to God, whatsoever you might have received from me;
6, And honors not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God void by your tradition.
7, You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
8, These people draw near unto me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9, But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

No one worships or follows God by rejecting his WORD.

JOHN 12:47-48 [47], And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. [48], He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

MATTHEW 4:4 Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it (Romans 3:4).

The written WORD is God's WORD. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16)

Thanks for your thoughts my friend but I believe God's WORD is also the written WORD given to us as a gift from the LIVING WORD (Jesus) and as Peter says we ought to obey it rather then the teachings of men.

May God help you as you seek him through his Word

 

[Tutorman]

Indeed it is hard to see when you will not consider the scriptures posted earlier. You are free to believe as you wish. I do not judge you and I am sorry I cannot help you further my friend. We will need to agree to disagree if you do not believe the scriptures posted.

Jesus already gave us warnings in Matthew 15:3-9 that those who follow the teachings and traditions of men over the Word of God are not following God.

MATTHEW 15:3-9
3, But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4, For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
5, But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift devoted to God, whatsoever you might have received from me;
6, And honors not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God void by your tradition.
7, You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
8, These people draw near unto me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9, But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

No one worships or follows God by rejecting his WORD.

JOHN 12:47-48 [47], And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. [48], He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

MATTHEW 4:4 Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it (Romans 3:4).

The written WORD is God's WORD. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16)

May God help you as you seek him through his Word

Yet none of these verse say that the Bible is to govern the Church, all you have given me is your interpretation because the Bible never said such a silly thing but you could not admit that instead you decided to play a game of interpretation. I will tell you what the Bible does say. The Bible says the Church is the foundation of truth and in fact the Bible never says to go by itself alone. The idea of Solo Scriptura is a lie from Satan

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yet none of these verse say that the Bible is to govern the Church, all you have given me is your interpretation because the Bible never said such a silly thing but you could not admit that instead you decided to play a game of interpretation. I will tell you what the Bible does say. The Bible says the Church is the foundation of truth and in fact the Bible never says to go by itself alone. The idea of Solo Scriptura is a lie from Satan

Nope sorry Tutorman. The scriptures you reject disagree with you. God's WORD shows that if we are following Man made traditions over the WORD of GOD we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9) and as Peter says we ought to obey God rather then man if man is going against the WORD of God (Acts 5:29). Paul says to let God be true and everyman a liar (Romans 3:4) when it comes to the teachings of men against the WORD of God.

We have already looked at the GREEK meaning of CHURCH which is ἐκκλησία which means; a Calling out or an assembly of believers who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD.

God's Church has never been the Roman Catholic Church organization or any other church organization. God's Church is the people in every Church organization that BELIEVE and FOLLOW the WORD of God that he has given to them.

If someone does not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD then they are not a part of God's Church.

Sorry brother we will have to agree to disagree. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it.

No one has salvation in knowingly rejecting God's WORD and disobeying it (Hebrew 10:26-27).

May God help you as you seek him through his Word

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yet none of these verse say that the Bible is to govern the Church, all you have given me is your interpretation because the Bible never said such a silly thing but you could not admit that instead you decided to play a game of interpretation. I will tell you what the Bible does say. The Bible says the Church is the foundation of truth and in fact the Bible never says to go by itself alone. The idea of Solo Scriptura is a lie from Satan

Sola Scriptura can be defended with Scripture. I did a deep study on this with lots of Scripture that talks about this. I spread the information out in two posts.

You can see post #1 here.
And post #2 here.

 

[discipler7]

Do you believe George Sodini was saved?

JOHN.3: = 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
.

Evildoers/sinners/law-breakers/criminals tend to not believe in or have faith in Jesus Christ = evildoers/criminals tend to hate and reject the light. They are condemned already or not saved. So, George Sodini was not saved from hell if he did not believe in or have faith in Jesus Christ when he died, eg he cursed God/Jesus and died.
....... Such evildoers/law-breakers are very different from Gentile Christians who do not keep laws that are a burden to them, as exempted by God at ACTS.21:25 & 15:24-29, eg exempted from the law of circumcision and kosher food. This exemption for Gentile Christians may even include the great law to "love your neighbor".

Technically, Gentile Christians who could not "love your neighbor" are not evildoers because they did not do evil or harm to their neighbors. It is an error to say that such Gentile Christians do not have salvation just because they did not keep a certain law. That's like Judaizer 2.0.

Wrt salvation, Christians are born-again by faith in Jesus Christ and should also die in faith. There should be no mixing of the Law in between wrt salvation. ...
HEBREWS.12: = 1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It wasn't the only time. When he was accused of working on the Sabbath he had this to say in his "defense". Thus agreeing with them.

John 5:17
In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”

Just as the pharisees did not understand, neither do you. Doing good works does not violate the Sabbath.

 

[Dave L]

Goodness Dave, this is sad for you.

What is sad? You use the same cut & paste telling half the story about what the OLD COVENANT is despite being corrected with God's WORD showing you all the scriptures you have left out of your post showing what made up the OLD COVENANT.

Why do you not address the posts and scriptures sent to you earlier showing why you disagree with them? Instead you ignore the scriptures provided as a help and post the same old cut & paste over and over without addressing any of the scriptures in previous posts to you showing that this post you have written is only telling half a story. How can you know what the NEW COVENANT is if you do not understand what the OLD COVENANT is?

.............

According to God's WORD this is why your post above is only telling half the story (the following is reposted from ealier disucssions) ...

.............

WHAT LAWS MADE UP THE OLD COVENANT?

God's 10 Commandments were a part of what made up the OLD COVENANT but they were only a part of it not all of it.

The OLD COVENANT was made up of both God's 10 Commandments and the the Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT that pointed to Christ and God's plan of salvation.

Let's look at the scriptures in detail...

The OLD COVENANT was made up of many sets of LAWS. These included God's LAW (10 Commandments) spoken and written by GOD himself to his people on two tables of stone and the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT written and spoken to God's people by MOSES containing the CIVIL, SANITARY, CEREMONIAL, ECCLESIASTICAL laws for forgiveness of sin and sin offerings for the SANCTUARY and PRIESTHOOD [Levitical].

EXODUS 24 [7] And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the hearing of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

The Old Covenant included; The 10 Commandments and the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT...

.............

1. GOD'S LAW (One scripture only as we already agree on this)

EXODUS 34 [28] And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the COVENANT, the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

.............

This is what you left out of your post only telling half the story...

2. THE MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT (Also part of the old covenant)

EXODUS 24 [7] And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the hearing of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

DEUTERONOMY 31:26 [26] TAKE THIS BOOK OF THE LAW, and put it in the side of the ark of the COVENANT of the LORD your God, that it may be there FOR A WITNESS AGAINST THEE.

DEUTERONOMY 29:21 [21] And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, ACCORDING TO ALL THE CURSES OF THE COVENANT that are WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW.

EXODUS 24 [7], And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

DEUTERONOMY 29 [21], And the LORD shall separate him to evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the COVENANT THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK OF THE LAW.

DEUTERONOMY 31 [26], Take this BOOK OF THE LAW, and put it in the SIDE OF THE ARK OF THE COVENANT of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

2 KINGS 23 [2], And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, both small and great: and HE READ IN THEIR EARS ALL THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT which was found in the house of the LORD.

2 KINGS 23 [3], And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, TO PERFORM THE WORDS OF THIS COVENANT THAT WERE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK. And all the people stood to the COVENANT.

2 KINGS 23 [21], And the king commanded all the people, saying, KEEP THE PASSOVER OF THE LORD your God, AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THIS COVENANT.

2 CHRONICLES 34 [30], And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the priests, and the Levites, and all the people, great and small: and HE READ IN THEIR EARS ALL THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT that was found in the house of the LORD.

2 CHRONICLES 34 [31] And the king stood in his place, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments, and his testimonies, and his statutes, with all his heart, and with all his soul, TO PERFORM THE WORDS OF THE COVENANT WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK.

...............

* Yep, the OLD COVENANT is not just the 10 Commandments it includes the prophetic SHADOW LAWS FROM THE MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT*

...............

HEBREWS 9:1 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

EPHESIANS 2 [15] HAVING ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;[16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

EZEKIEL 46 [14] And thou shalt prepare a meat offering for it every morning, the sixth part of an ephah, and the third part of an hin of oil, to temper with the fine flour; a MEAT OFFERING continually by a perpetual ORDINANCE unto the LORD.

NUMBERS 19 [2] This is the ORDINANCE OF THE LAW which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:

HEBREWS 10 [1] For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. [3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

What laws are written on the heart in the NEW COVENANT promise? It is not the MOSAIC laws for remission of sin...

JEREMIAH 31:31-34 [31], Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:[32], NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt ; MY COVENANT WHICH THEY BROKE, although I was a husband unto them, says the LORD:[33], But THIS SHALL BE MY COVENANT THAT I SHALL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISREAL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND I WILL WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE; [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

2 CORINTHIANS 3 [2], You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: [3], Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, WRITTEN NOT WITH INK, BUT WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD; NOT IN TABLES OF STONE, BUT IN THE FLESHLY TABLES OF THE HEART. (see all of 2 COR 3)

The NEW COVENANT promise of LOVE is God's LAW (10 Commandments) written on the heart to LOVE through faith (HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10)

……………………………

CONCLUSION; Jesus did not come to change or destroy GOD'S LAW (10 Commandments). It is through GOD's LAW that we have a KNOLWEDGE of what SIN is. The sabbath is still to be kept. He came to fulfil what was written of Him in the books of the law and to END the Mosaic law for remission of SIN and the penalty of SIN in those who BELIEVE

yep it is the SHADOW laws that are fulfilled in Christ. The OLD COVENANT is made up of God's 10 Commandments and the Shadow laws in ORDINANCES from the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT.

You have your shadow laws mixed up with God's eternal LAW that give us a KNOWLEDGE of what sin is if broken. * ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:11; 1 JOHN 3:4

Happy to share the purpose of God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT in another post if your interested?

DETAILED SCRIPTURE SUPPORT LINKING OLD AND NEW HERE Click me.

Now et's look at the house of the OLD COVENANT. It is called the ARK OF THE COVENANT and let's see what it included..

............

Further proof that the OLD COVENANT is both Gods LAW (10 Commandments) and the MOSIAC BOOK of the law? Look at the ARK [HOUSE] of the COVENANT.

.............

WHAT LAWS DID THE ARK OF THE COVENANT [HOUSE OF THE COVENANT] CONTAIN?

DEUTERONOMY 10:5 [5] And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they are, as the LORD commanded me.

Yep there is the 10 Commandments housed in the ARK of the COVENANT.

DEUTERONOMY 31:26 [26] Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

Well here you go now Dave can you now see your error here?

EXODUS 24:7 [7] And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

..............

CONCLUSION: The ARK [House of the COVENANT] held God's 10 Commandments [2x tables of stone] and the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT . Together these made up the OLD COVENANT.

Yep seems like you are only telling half the story here. Can you see your error now?

Now Dave, these scriptures have been re-posted to you more then once now. You chose to simply ignore them and just continue to cut & paste the same thing without addressing these scriptures that show you do not understand what the OLD COVENANT is. This is what I was referring to earlier.

If you do not understand what the OLD COVENANT is how can you UNDERSTAND what the NEW COVENANT is? Ignoring God's WORD does not make it dissappear.

These scriptures have only been sent as a help to you. You are free to BELIEVE God's WORD of not. We are all only held accoutable to God come judgment day.

Maybe we should agree to disagree if you cannot respond to the scriptures and posts provided as a help.

I normally do not read posts that are more than a few paragraphs long. "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

- Albert Einstein

 

[Bible Highlighter]

JOHN.3: = 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
.

Evildoers/sinners/law-breakers/criminals tend to not believe in or have faith in Jesus Christ = evildoers/criminals tend to hate and reject the light. They are condemned already or not saved. So, George Sodini was not saved from hell if he did not believe in or have faith in Jesus Christ when he died, eg he cursed God/Jesus and died.
....... Such evildoers/law-breakers are very different from Gentile Christians who do not keep laws that are a burden to them, as exempted by God at ACTS.21:25 & 15:24-29, eg exempted from the law of circumcision and kosher food. This exemption for Gentile Christians may even include the great law to "love your neighbor".

Technically, Gentile Christians who could not "love your neighbor" are not evildoers because they did not do evil or harm to their neighbors. It is an error to say that such Gentile Christians do not have salvation just because they did not keep a certain law. That's like Judaizer 2.0.

Wrt salvation, Christians are born-again by faith in Jesus Christ and should also die in faith. There should be no mixing of the Law in between wrt salvation. ...
HEBREWS.12: = 1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Wow. This to me is mind blowing. Where is the goodness of God upheld with your belief? Wouldn't God have to agree with your plan of salvation that makes for an allowance for sin? Meaning, wouldn't God have to agree with sin in order to save sinful and rebellious individuals who have a belief alone on Jesus? For even if you believed God paid the price for all sins at the cross, it still does not erase the moral issue. That would be like dying for the devil so he can continue to do evil and horrible things upon other people. However, if I died for a person who I knew was going to do more evil and harm upon others, it would make me just as guilty as that criminal because I am allowing for my sacrifice to further evil deeds. Can you not see that?

Do you even know what morality is?
What do you think a sociopath is?
This kind of belief seems sociopathic to me.
Sociopaths do not really believe in any right or wrong.
Can you explain to me how your belief harmonizes with basic morality or the goodness of God?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I normally do not read posts that are more than a few paragraphs long. "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

- Albert Einstein

Hello Dave, it was already explained to you simply in two scriptures from Exodus 34:8 and Exodus 24:7 but you dismissed or ignored these scriptures and the short version. It was very easy and simple to understand. If you need a link again let me know I will try and get it for you again.

After, you were posted a more detailed reply in case you needed more scripture to consider (some like the detail) but as you agree you did not read or ignored it.

This leads me to think you had no intention of a discussion about God's WORD and the OLD COVENANT as it challenges everything you believe in the NEW COVENANT.

Anyhow it is ok with me if you are not open to God's WORD then it is between you and God.

I wish you all only the best.

 

[Saint Steven]

Indeed it is hard to see what you do not want to. Already discussed in post # 402 linked click me and elsewhere. No need for repeat yourself please feel free to adress the linked post and show how it is not true if you like? v24 these two women are an allegory: for these are the two covenants. We do not have rightouesness from the LAW but by FAITH in God's WORD.

The opening verse proves that being under the law is a choice, not a consequence.

Galatians 4:21
Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

JOHN.3: = 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
.

Evildoers/sinners/law-breakers/criminals tend to not believe in or have faith in Jesus Christ = evildoers/criminals tend to hate and reject the light. They are condemned already or not saved. So, George Sodini was not saved from hell if he did not believe in or have faith in Jesus Christ when he died, eg he cursed God/Jesus and died.
....... Such evildoers/law-breakers are very different from Gentile Christians who do not keep laws that are a burden to them, as exempted by God at ACTS.21:25 & 15:24-29, eg exempted from the law of circumcision and kosher food. This exemption for Gentile Christians may even include the great law to "love your neighbor".

Technically, Gentile Christians who could not "love your neighbor" are not evildoers because they did not do evil or harm to their neighbors. It is an error to say that such Gentile Christians do not have salvation just because they did not keep a certain law. That's like Judaizer 2.0.

Wrt salvation, Christians are born-again by faith in Jesus Christ and should also die in faith. There should be no mixing of the Law in between wrt salvation. ...
HEBREWS.12: = 1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

It sounds like you are a Free Will Baptist. They do not believe in OSAS, but yet they believe similar to OSAS proponents in the fact that a believer can sin and still be saved. That all is required for salvation is a belief. I have heard OSAS proponents say before that John 3:20 is in reference to the unbeliever only and not the believer. But John 3:20 says everyone who does evil hates the light. To me: The word "everyone" means "everyone." So can a saved person hate God and still be saved? It appears that all is required in your version of salvation is a belief. So yes. It sounds like in your view: A saint can hate God and still be saved. Am I right? However, John 3:20 also says that this person does not even come to the light, too. So the person who says they can sin and still be saved is technically hating the light (God/Christ) and not coming to the light (God/Christ). So this verse destroys your belief because you believe that a belief is required for salvation. To have a belief in Christ means one has to at least come to the light. But John 3:20 says that everyone who does evil (sin) hates the light (God/Christ) and does not come to the light (God/Christ). So your belief is destroyed by John 3:20. But you may contest that the saint who sins with the thinking they are saved does come to the light because they believe in Jesus, right? But this is not true. They are not coming to the light on God's terms that tells the sinner to repent of their sins. Jesus defines repentance for us in Matthew 12:41 by pointing us to Jonah 3:6-10. For in Jonah 3:6-10, we learn that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to cry out unto God and to forsake their evil ways; And it was not until they forsaken their evil ways until God decide to not bring judgment or wrath upon them anymore.