IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)

[LoveGodsWord]

I prove the Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. Again, please read carefully.

“And He (God) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” Exodus 34:28

“And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the Ten Commandments.” Deuteronomy 4:13:

“When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.” Deuteronomy 9:9:

“So I turned and came down from the mount . . . and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.” Deuteronomy 9:15:

“There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when Jehovah made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt,” I Kings 8:9

“And there have I set a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of Jehovah, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.” I Kings 8:21

The second of these two texts is repeated in II Chronicles 6:11.

Consider “The ark of the covenant” that held the Ten Commandments (Numbers 10:33; Jeremiah 3:16, and other places)

Now consider Jeremiah and Hebrews saying the New Covenant replaced them:

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; Which my covenant they brake, Although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts; And will be their God, And they shall be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33)

“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.” (Hebrews 8:7–13)

Goodness Dave, this is sad for you.

What is sad? You use the same cut & paste telling half the story about what the OLD COVENANT is despite being corrected with God's WORD showing you all the scriptures you have left out of your post showing what made up the OLD COVENANT.

Why do you not address the posts and scriptures sent to you earlier showing why you disagree with them? Instead you ignore the scriptures provided as a help and post the same old cut & paste over and over without addressing any of the scriptures in previous posts to you showing that this post you have written is only telling half a story. How can you know what the NEW COVENANT is if you do not understand what the OLD COVENANT is?

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According to God's WORD this is why your post above is only telling half the story (the following is reposted from ealier disucssions) ...

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WHAT LAWS MADE UP THE OLD COVENANT?

God's 10 Commandments were a part of what made up the OLD COVENANT but they were only a part of it not all of it.

The OLD COVENANT was made up of both God's 10 Commandments and the the Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT that pointed to Christ and God's plan of salvation.

Let's look at the scriptures in detail...

The OLD COVENANT was made up of many sets of LAWS. These included God's LAW (10 Commandments) spoken and written by GOD himself to his people on two tables of stone and the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT written and spoken to God's people by MOSES containing the CIVIL, SANITARY, CEREMONIAL, ECCLESIASTICAL laws for forgiveness of sin and sin offerings for the SANCTUARY and PRIESTHOOD [Levitical].

EXODUS 24 [7] And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the hearing of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

The Old Covenant included; The 10 Commandments and the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT...

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1. GOD'S LAW (One scripture only as we already agree on this)

EXODUS 34 [28] And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the COVENANT, the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

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This is what you left out of your post only telling half the story...

2. THE MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT (Also part of the old covenant)

EXODUS 24 [7] And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the hearing of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

DEUTERONOMY 31:26 [26] TAKE THIS BOOK OF THE LAW, and put it in the side of the ark of the COVENANT of the LORD your God, that it may be there FOR A WITNESS AGAINST THEE.

DEUTERONOMY 29:21 [21] And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, ACCORDING TO ALL THE CURSES OF THE COVENANT that are WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW.

EXODUS 24 [7], And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

DEUTERONOMY 29 [21], And the LORD shall separate him to evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the COVENANT THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK OF THE LAW.

DEUTERONOMY 31 [26], Take this BOOK OF THE LAW, and put it in the SIDE OF THE ARK OF THE COVENANT of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

2 KINGS 23 [2], And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, both small and great: and HE READ IN THEIR EARS ALL THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT which was found in the house of the LORD.

2 KINGS 23 [3], And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, TO PERFORM THE WORDS OF THIS COVENANT THAT WERE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK. And all the people stood to the COVENANT.

2 KINGS 23 [21], And the king commanded all the people, saying, KEEP THE PASSOVER OF THE LORD your God, AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THIS COVENANT.

2 CHRONICLES 34 [30], And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the priests, and the Levites, and all the people, great and small: and HE READ IN THEIR EARS ALL THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT that was found in the house of the LORD.

2 CHRONICLES 34 [31] And the king stood in his place, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments, and his testimonies, and his statutes, with all his heart, and with all his soul, TO PERFORM THE WORDS OF THE COVENANT WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK.

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* Yep, the OLD COVENANT is not just the 10 Commandments it includes the prophetic SHADOW LAWS FROM THE MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT*

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HEBREWS 9:1 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

EPHESIANS 2 [15] HAVING ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;[16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

EZEKIEL 46 [14] And thou shalt prepare a meat offering for it every morning, the sixth part of an ephah, and the third part of an hin of oil, to temper with the fine flour; a MEAT OFFERING continually by a perpetual ORDINANCE unto the LORD.

NUMBERS 19 [2] This is the ORDINANCE OF THE LAW which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:

HEBREWS 10 [1] For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. [3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

What laws are written on the heart in the NEW COVENANT promise? It is not the MOSAIC laws for remission of sin...

JEREMIAH 31:31-34 [31], Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:[32], NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt ; MY COVENANT WHICH THEY BROKE, although I was a husband unto them, says the LORD:[33], But THIS SHALL BE MY COVENANT THAT I SHALL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISREAL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND I WILL WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE; [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

2 CORINTHIANS 3 [2], You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: [3], Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, WRITTEN NOT WITH INK, BUT WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD; NOT IN TABLES OF STONE, BUT IN THE FLESHLY TABLES OF THE HEART. (see all of 2 COR 3)

The NEW COVENANT promise of LOVE is God's LAW (10 Commandments) written on the heart to LOVE through faith (HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10)

……………………………

CONCLUSION; Jesus did not come to change or destroy GOD'S LAW (10 Commandments). It is through GOD's LAW that we have a KNOLWEDGE of what SIN is. The sabbath is still to be kept. He came to fulfil what was written of Him in the books of the law and to END the Mosaic law for remission of SIN and the penalty of SIN in those who BELIEVE

yep it is the SHADOW laws that are fulfilled in Christ. The OLD COVENANT is made up of God's 10 Commandments and the Shadow laws in ORDINANCES from the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT.

You have your shadow laws mixed up with God's eternal LAW that give us a KNOWLEDGE of what sin is if broken. * ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:11; 1 JOHN 3:4

Happy to share the purpose of God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT in another post if your interested?

DETAILED SCRIPTURE SUPPORT LINKING OLD AND NEW HERE Click me.

Now et's look at the house of the OLD COVENANT. It is called the ARK OF THE COVENANT and let's see what it included..

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Further proof that the OLD COVENANT is both Gods LAW (10 Commandments) and the MOSIAC BOOK of the law? Look at the ARK [HOUSE] of the COVENANT.

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WHAT LAWS DID THE ARK OF THE COVENANT [HOUSE OF THE COVENANT] CONTAIN?

DEUTERONOMY 10:5 [5] And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they are, as the LORD commanded me.

Yep there is the 10 Commandments housed in the ARK of the COVENANT.

DEUTERONOMY 31:26 [26] Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

Well here you go now Dave can you now see your error here?

EXODUS 24:7 [7] And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

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CONCLUSION: The ARK [House of the COVENANT] held God's 10 Commandments [2x tables of stone] and the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT . Together these made up the OLD COVENANT.

Yep seems like you are only telling half the story here. Can you see your error now?

Now Dave, these scriptures have been re-posted to you more then once now. You chose to simply ignore them and just continue to cut & paste the same thing without addressing these scriptures that show you do not understand what the OLD COVENANT is. This is what I was referring to earlier.

If you do not understand what the OLD COVENANT is how can you UNDERSTAND what the NEW COVENANT is? Ignoring God's WORD does not make it dissappear.

These scriptures have only been sent as a help to you. You are free to BELIEVE God's WORD of not. We are all only held accoutable to God come judgment day.

Maybe we should agree to disagree if you cannot respond to the scriptures and posts provided as a help.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I would say you proved it.

If you believe that then may need to read God's WORD more Dan (Please read post # 381 linked CLICK ME). If you disagree then please show why using God's WORD how he is telling the full story of what the OLD COVENANT is when he has left half of it out of his post?

The OLD COVENANT was made of God's LAW (10 Commandments [words] * Exodus 34:28), and the Mosaic BOOK of the covenant (Exodus 24:7). Both God's 10 Commandments and the Mosaic book of the covenant held a different purpose in the OLD COVENANT. God's 10 Commandments were to give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172) while the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT held the laws for remission [FORGIVENESS] of sin if God's 10 commandments were broken [Leviticus 16]. Both were housed with the ARK of the COVENANT [HOUSE OF THE COVENANT] that collectively made up the OLD COVENANT (Deuteronomy 10:5; Deuteronomy 31:26).

Some try to make up the story that God's 10 Commandments alone are the OLD COVENANT. This is only telling half the story and causes confusion as to what laws are being referred to in the NEW TESTAMENT and why many do not understand what the NEW COVENANT is.

Hope this helps

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There is no way you are typing all these posts on the fly. You are copying and pasting from some established source, of your own I suppose. Still a database of some sort.

I keep all my studies and time from prayerful studies in God's WORD. Some posts are on the fly. Some posts are from sections of studies in God's WORD I have made. I love God's WORD and love to share what God has shown me.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That does not in any way, shape, or form, explain what I am asking you.

Why would the Apostle write this? See scripture below.
Who would WANT to be under the condemnation of the law?

Galatians 4:21
Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

- If being under the law is to be under its condemnation;
what did the Apostle do to become like those under the law?

- What did the Apostle do to become like one not having the law?

- The Apostle described himself as not being under the law,
not free from God’s law, but under Christ’s law. Three different laws.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

Of course it does. You do not believe the scriptures posted to you because you believe God's 10 commandments are abolished so you refuse to acknowkedge them. *ROMANS 3:9-20 means to be UNDER THE LAW is to be UNDER THE CONDEMNATION of it Guilty before GOD of SIN and breaking it.

 

[Tutorman]

Hope this helps and thanks for sharing tutorman

Not really. I do not follow a book with my own understanding I follow the Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth. In fact, there is no where in the Bible that says to go by it alone

 

[Saint Steven]

I keep all my studies and time from prayerful studies in God's WORD. Some posts are on the fly. Some posts are from sections of studies in God's WORD I have made. I love God's WORD and love to share what God has shown me.

That's what I meant by taking them copy/paste from a database. Which is fine in general.

But you tend to bulldoze posters who disagree with you in a barrage of copy/paste information without a thought as to what they are saying. And worse that that, claim they are not telling the truth and that their "prayerful studies in God's WORD" is of zero value. Only your information is valid. And then to add insult to injury you claim you are being respectful and courteous.

 

[Tutorman]

That's what I meant by taking them copy/paste from a database. Which is fine in general.

But you tend to bulldoze posters who disagree with you in a barrage of copy/paste information without a thought as to what they are saying. And worse that that, claim they are not telling the truth and that their "prayerful studies in God's WORD" is of zero value. Only your information is valid. And then to add insult to injury you claim you are being respectful and courteous.

Exactly

 

[Saint Steven]

Of course it does. You do not believe the scriptures posted to you because you believe God's 10 commandments are abolished so you refuse to acknowkedge them. *ROMANS 3:9-20 means to be UNDER THE LAW is to be UNDER THE CONDEMNATION of it Guilty before GOD of SIN and breaking it.

So, why would anyone WANT to be under the condemnation of the law?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That's what I meant by taking them copy/paste from a database. Which is fine in general.

But you tend to bulldoze posters who disagree with you in a barrage of copy/paste information without a thought as to what they are saying. And worse that that, claim they are not telling the truth and that their "prayerful studies in God's WORD" is of zero value. Only your information is valid. And then to add insult to injury you claim you are being respectful and courteous.

As I said ealier I do not use a database and post each post on the fly. Sometimes I use sections of studies with scripture to prove a point. Thats all. Not sure why you are trying to make out I am doing something I am not.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So, why would anyone WANT to be under the condemnation of the law?

Read the scriptuures. Paul said he did so to reach sinners although he himself was not "under the law"

 

[Saint Steven]

As I said ealier I do not use a database and post each post on the fly. Sometimes I use sections of studies with scripture. Thats is simple. Not sure why you are trying to make out I am doing something I am not.

You are actually agreeing with me. You seem to be hung up on the word "database".
But here is the BIGGER issue...

You tend to bulldoze posters who disagree with you in a barrage of copy/paste information without a thought as to what they are saying. And worse that that, claim they are not telling the truth and that their "prayerful studies in God's WORD" is of zero value. Only your information is valid. And then to add insult to injury you claim you are being respectful and courteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

Read the scriptuures. Paul said he did so to reach sinners although he himself was not "under the law"

That's not the scripture I am referring to. I am talking about Hagar and Sarah. (Gal.4:21-31) "... we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman." - vs 31

Galatians 4:21-31
Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Look, friend. I gave you the verses. It is up to you to show me how they do not say what they plainly mean. If you cannot do that, then you are either ignoring them or you are making them say something that that they really don't say plainly. It is up to you to prove to me your belief here. So far, I am not seeing that.

Well, these are my words to you and they are not yours.
Making my words like they are your own when they are not is not nice, nor is it being honest.

Seems, you are the one ignoring the verses that I gave you.

1CORINTHIANS.5:5 says that even an unrepentant Gentile Christian incest-sinner can be saved from hell, even though his flesh would soon be destroyed by Satan, ie as long as he kept the faith of Christ Jesus until death. In actual case, he repented and so his flesh was not destroyed by Satan or he did not die young. In contrast, you implied that the unrepentant Christian incest-sinner and other sinners cannot remain saved, even though they may still have faith in Christ.

Well, I do not recall you mentioning 1 Corinthians 5:5 to me before. I went back page by page all the way to the beginning and did not see this verse reference.

As for your odd view on 1 Corinthians 5:5:

I believe the NLT (the New Living Translations) clears up your confusion here.

"Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns." (1 Corinthians 5:5) (NLT).

Here is a verse that says a similar thing:

"Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme." (1 Timothy 1:20).

For the word "flesh" (based on the context) can be in reference to one's sinful nature or inclinations.

Paul gives us two ways we can live.

If we live after the flesh, we will die spiritually.
But if we put to death the deeds of the body (sin), we shall live spiritually.

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

LUKE.23:43 says that a Jewish robber who was crucified next to Jesus Christ was saved from hell through faith in Jesus Christ. Did he feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, take in strangers, visit sick prisoners or "love your neighbor" after he was saved from hell.? According to your standards, he should not be saved from hell or could not remain saved since he did not "love your neighbor". Jesus says otherwise, eg convicted murderers on Death Row can still be saved.

As I said before, not everyone can receive all things that the Lord commands. If the thief on the cross did not end up being crucified and he had lived, he would have had to do those things so as to live out His faith.

To whom much is given, much is required (Luke 12:48).
Salvation is not this neat kind of one sized fits all kind of a package. Yes, we are saved by Jesus Christ and what He has done for us, but if a person accepts Christ, and they do not die right away, then the Lord Jesus will do the good work within them over the course of their lives (if they surrender to Christ). If they decide to sin in this life and disobey Jesus, then they are proving that Jesus is not their Lord.

Not only that, but you are only fooling yourself if you actually believe that a Christian can commit grievous sin and still be saved. For wouldn't God have to agree or approve of a believer's sin in order to save them? The sacrifice of Jesus does not give us a license to sin or do evil (See Jude 1:4).

It is a bit late for you to now qualify your earlier statement "Not loving your neighbor is a salvation issue" as not applying to those who could not "love your neighbor" because the damage has likely already been done, ie stumbling weak Gentile Christians who happened to read your statement. They may be now desperately trying to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, take in strangers, visit sick prisoners and "love your neighbor", in order to remain saved.

Look. I did not put that passage in the Bible. Nor did I say it. Jesus said these words. If you do not like them, take it up with Him. If you believe they do not talk about salvation, then you need to prove that using the context. But I do not get that impression in Matthew 25:31-46. I see that those who did not help the poor in this life were cast into everlasting fire. Matthew 25:30 says that the unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. So how do you sweep all of this under the carpet or change these verses to magically fit your belief that we can sin and still be saved? I am sorry. I just do not see it. Maybe there is a verse I am missing within the context that you need to show me so that it is clear for me.

Granted, I am not going to hold my breath.
For I know you cannot produce such a verse because there is no verse in context to defend your belief here.

Not only that, but I see the "sin and still be saved" kind of belief as being immoral, as well. For it does not treat sin as serious as the Bible and life teaches it. For there is no true justice or goodness in this kind of view. It's turning God's grace into a license for immorality. But God is good and so the kind of belief you are suggesting to me is not possible.

JOHN.3:16 clearly says "16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

People are saved by believing in Jesus Christ. Full stop.

This is Laser Beam Theology. The Bible cannot be read by plucking verses out of context to other ones. You want there to be a full stop at John 3:16 and for good reason. For the upcoming verses condemn your belief in a grievous sin and still be saved type gospel.

John 3:19-21 says,

19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."
(John 3:19-21).

Verse 20 says everyone who does evil hates the light and neither comes to the light unless their evil deeds should be reproved. So there goes your "sin and still be saved" type belief.

....... People are not saved by the works of keeping the Law. After the era of Christ, the works of the Law could only bring earthly blessings from God, eg a good, peaceful, joyful, loving and long life on earth, ie not heavenly blessings of everlasting life in the kingdom of heaven.

Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ).
It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5). So there is no Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism going on here.

However, in the Pharisee religion, they turned God's salvation into a system of works without God's grace (Which was Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism).
This is evident by reading the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14).
For the Pharisee did not humble himself before God by repenting of his sins.
For the Pharisee religion made salvation all about Law alone.

But, the Law alone only makes sinners to be aware of their sins.

Sin gives death its sting, and God's standards give sin its power.
(1 Corinthians 15:56 GWT).

"Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin." (Romans 3:20).

The Pharisees tried to be justified by the Old Law alone or a system of works. But the Law only brings an awareness of sin.

Paul was in the Pharisee religion of Law alone salvationism and Paul struggled as a Pharisee to keep God's Laws under the Old Covenant (i.e. the 613 Laws of Moses) that did not apply anymore as a whole (except the moral law) after Christ's resurrection.

"The laws in Moses' Teachings bring about anger. But where laws don't exist, they can't be broken." (Romans 4:15 GWT).

It's why Romans 6:14 says,
"for ye are not under the law,."

It is talking about the Old Law (and not all law).

For Paul says in Romans 3:1,
"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?"

"But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me..." (Romans 7:13).

Sin that it might appear as sin. That is what Paul says in Romans 7:13.
See, after Christ's death, the New Covenant (New Testament) was officially put into effect (Hebrews 9:15-18) (Luke 22:20) and certain Laws in the Old Covenant do not appear as sin anymore for New Covenant believers because there are many laws in the Old Covenant that do not apply anymore like circumcision (Galatians 5:2), eating unclean animals (Acts of the Apostles 10:9-16).
It is why the temple veil was torn from top to bottom at Christ's death (Matthew 27:51).
For the Old Law on animal sacrifices did not apply anymore.

For when the Law of Moses first came to Moses there were death penalties attached to disobeying them. So the Commandment that was ordained for life, the Israelite found it to be unto death and it slew him.
The Law alone (without God and His salvation) could not help the Israelite. It is why we read the following.

8 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:8-11).

The Old Law was a schoolmaster or teacher that helped to bring us unto Christ so we can be justified by faith.

"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."` (Galatians 3:24).

Our initial and ultimate salvation rests upon being justified in Christ.

But God's grace is not a license for immorality (or for sin).

"For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 1:4 NIV).

On the flip side,

1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
(Romans 8:1-8).

For you can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
And if you do not have any kind of holiness, you will not see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You are actually agreeing with me. You seem to be hung up on the word "database".
But here is the BIGGER issue...

You tend to bulldoze posters who disagree with you in a barrage of copy/paste information without a thought as to what they are saying. And worse that that, claim they are not telling the truth and that their "prayerful studies in God's WORD" is of zero value. Only your information is valid. And then to add insult to injury you claim you are being respectful and courteous.

Not at all I do not agree with you.

As stated already I post each post on the fly to each post. To support a post I provide scripture that I have already studied from a prayerful study of God's WORD sometimes off memory or from small sections from prayerful studies of I have kept from God's WORD.

Weather sections of a post is all scripture or not it is irrelavent. It is posted as God's WORD to prove a point in discussion or show where someone may be in error only sent as a help or guide for consideration to those interested.

God's WORD is God's WORD and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. If you disagree with any posts I have made you are welcome to adress the post and show how the scriptures posted are not correct. So far you do not adress any of the scriptures and posts that disagree with your teachings that God's 10 Commandments are abolished.

God's WORD is GOD's WORD no matter and it is to the WORD of GOD that all must look to as truth.

It is only on the WORD of GOD we stand or fall. If you do not have it for what you believe then you have already fallen and should reconsider what you believe. Your claims above are because you are not able to respond to the scriptures posted that disagree with your teaching.

Hope this helps clear up any confusion

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Not really. I do not follow a book with my own understanding I follow the Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth. In fact, there is no where in the Bible that says to go by it alone

You are free to follow the teachings of men that break the commandments of GOD or follow the WORD of GOD. Jesus however, teaches if you follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God you are not following God. Consider what Jesus says...

MATTHEW 15:3-9
[3], But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift devoted to God, whatsoever you might have received from me;
[6], And honors not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God void by your tradition.
[7], You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
[8], These people draw near unto me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Jesus teaches that it is vain to think your following and worshipping God while breaking any of his Commandments.

Hope this helps

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That's not the scripture I am referring to. I am talking about Hagar and Sarah. (Gal.4:21-31) "... we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman." - vs 31

Galatians 4:21-31
Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

Not a problem let's look at this one...

You are not considering the context and the other scriptures you posted earlier that say the same thing and that is RIGHTOUESNESS is not from the LAW (10 Commandments) it is from FAITH in CHRIST (God's Word).

To be "UNDER THE LAW" in this context is to seek to get your own RIGHTEOUSNESS by trying to obey God's LAW when all God's LAW does is reveal sin. Paul is showing through the covenants [Hagar and Sarah are an alegory of the OLD AND NEW COVENANTS v24] that RIGHTOUESNESS is by FAITH and not by the LAW.

The LAW (10 commandments and the Mosaic BOOK) is not where we get RIGHTOUESNESS because as PAUL says elsewhere there is NONE RIGHTEOUS NO NOT ONE (Romans 3:10). The purpose of God's LAW is only to give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS (Romans 3:20; James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172). It is the schoolmaster that leads us to the Cross of Christ that we might be forgiven by FAITH (Galatians 3:22-25).

RIGHTEOUSNESS is by FAITH in the WORD of GOD alone and not from the deeds of the law. If you are trying to be righteous through the LAW then all you will see is your sins and the wages of sin is death because you have not accepted the gift of God's dear son (Romans 6:23).

The scriptures are not saying God's LAW is Abolsihed Steve it is saying RIGHTEOUSNESS is by FAITH in Christ and not the LAW the works of the LAW. This is the topic of discussion and subject matter of v21-31.

Bondage is to sin (John 8:34). God's LAW just shows it (Romans 3:20). Jesus wants to save us from it (John 8:36).

Hope this helps (written on the fly)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Look, friend. I gave you the verses. It is up to you to show me how they do not say what they plainly mean. If you cannot do that, then you are either ignoring them or you are making them say something that that they really don't say plainly. It is up to you to prove to me your belief here. So far, I am not seeing that.

Seems, you are the one ignoring the verses that I gave you.

1CORINTHIANS.5:5 says that even an unrepentant Gentile Christian incest-sinner can be saved from hell, even though his flesh would soon be destroyed by Satan, ie as long as he kept the faith of Christ Jesus until death. In actual case, he repented and so his flesh was not destroyed by Satan or he did not die young. In contrast, you implied that the unrepentant Christian incest-sinner and other sinners cannot remain saved, even though they may still have faith in Christ.

LUKE.23:43 says that a Jewish robber who was crucified next to Jesus Christ was saved from hell through faith in Jesus Christ. Did he feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, take in strangers, visit sick prisoners or "love your neighbor" after he was saved from hell.? According to your standards, he should not be saved from hell or could not remain saved since he did not "love your neighbor". Jesus says otherwise, eg convicted murderers on Death Row can still be saved.

It is a bit late for you to now qualify your earlier statement "Not loving your neighbor is a salvation issue" as not applying to those who could not "love your neighbor" because the damage has likely already been done, ie stumbling weak Gentile Christians who happened to read your statement. They may be now desperately trying to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, take in strangers, visit sick prisoners and "love your neighbor", in order to remain saved.
.

JOHN.3:16 clearly says "16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

People are saved by believing in Jesus Christ. Full stop.
....... People are not saved by the works of keeping the Law. After the era of Christ, the works of the Law could only bring earthly blessings from God, eg a good, peaceful, joyful, loving and long life on earth, ie not heavenly blessings of everlasting life in the kingdom of heaven.

Believers in Christ should have God's laws written on their hearts and minds(HEBREWS.10:15), thus walking in the Spirit and fulfilling the Law(GALATIANS.5:16-26), eg "love your neighbor". This is true for most Jewish Christians who as former Jews, had kept God's laws from childhood; but not true for most Gentile Christians who as former Gentiles, did not keep God's laws from childhood. So, it is not difficult for Gentile Christians to fall into sins/law-breaking or to carry a lot of sinful/law-broken baggage with them when they came to Christ.
....... Even if some Gentile Christians ignorantly commit sins or remain in sins/law-broken = eg their flesh will be destroyed by Satan = sufferings, they will still be saved as long as they keep their faith in Christ until death, like suffering Job.(cf; JOB.2:9 = curse God/Jesus and die = Job's wife had likely lost faith)

Salvation can be lost by losing faith after sinning/law-breaking. Salvation is not lost just by sinning/law-breaking.
....... Salvation can also be lost by renouncing the faith after being persecuted or by departing from the faith after following false doctrines like cults/heresies.

I likened you to the self-righteous Pharisees and Judaizers who were stumbling blocks to salvation. How come you only criticized the Pharisees and not the Judaizers.?

Do you believe George Sodini was saved?
He was a hardcore Eternal Security proponent who believed he was going to be saved (by admission of his own suicide letter) before he murdered a bunch of people and then took his own life.

http://eternalsecurity.us/george_sodini.htm

Do you honestly believe this man was saved despite his evil unrepentant acts?
If you do, then I must ask you how do you define the good guys from the bad guys when you turn on the news or go into the world, or watch a movie? Is it by a belief alone? No. Most certainly not. A good person is defined by the fruit or good deeds. Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

Also, if you believe George Sodini was saved (despite his evil unrepentant grievous sins), then which apostle or believer thought this way?

 

[Saint Steven]

Not at all I do not agree with you.

As stated already I post each post on the fly to each post. To support a post I provide scripture that I have already studied from a prayerful study of God's WORD sometimes off memory or from small sections from prayerful study of God's WORD. …

The evidence indicates that what you are saying is simply not true.

There is no way that you are composing your responses on the fly. Each post is time stamped. You only have time to copy/paste from a database. Why wouldn't you be truthful about that? It's not wrong to copy/paste, but to hide the truth with a false story is an entirely different thing.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not a problem let's look at this one...

You are not considering the context and the other scriptures you posted earlier that say the same thing and that is RIGHTOUESNESS is not from the LAW (10 Commandments) it is from FAITH in CHRIST (God's Word).

To be "UNDER THE LAW" in this context is to seek to get your own RIGHTEOUSNESS by trying to obey God's LAW when all God's LAW does is reveal sin. Paul is showing through the covenants [Hagar and Sarah are an alegory of the OLD AND NEW COVENANTS v24] that RIGHTOUESNESS is by FAITH and not by the LAW.

The LAW (10 commandments and the Mosaic BOOK) is not where we get RIGHTOUESNESS because as PAUL says elsewhere there is NONE RIGHTEOUS NO NOT ONE (Romans 3:10). The purpose of God's LAW is only to give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS (Romans 3:20; James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172). It is the schoolmaster that leads us to the Cross of Christ that we might be forgiven by FAITH (Galatians 3:22-25).

RIGHTEOUSNESS is by FAITH in the WORD of GOD alone and not from the deeds of the law. If you are trying to be righteous through the LAW then all you will see is your sins and the wages of sin is death because you have not accepted the gift of God's dear son (Romans 6:23).

The scriptures are not saying God's LAW is Abolsihed Steve it is saying RIGHTEOUSNESS is by FAITH in Christ and not the LAW the works of the LAW. This is the topic of discussion and subject matter of v21-31.

Bondage is to sin (John 8:34). God's LAW just shows it (Romans 3:20). Jesus wants to save us from it (John 8:36).

Hope this helps (written on the fly)

That has nothing to do with the scripture in question. And obviously you have NO IDEA what biblical context is.

Try again. But be honest this time. Thanks. This is God's WORD we are talking about.

Galatians 4:21-31
Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

 

[Tutorman]

Hope this helps

So you ignore that Christ setup a Church not a book. The problem is you think that your interpretation which is from the SDA which came from a man not God, the right one but we see no where did Christ say "Hey SDA dudes look only to the Bible" no what Christ did was leave a Church with the Apostles in charge. You follow a failed idea of man from the 1800's I follow the Church that has Apostolic succession. You follow a religion that makes Micheal the Archangel into Christ, Whom when they realized the failure of their prophecy made a silly idea that Christ entered the heavenly temple, etc.

No your ideas are absolutely wrong. Your idea of Saturday as something special is not backed up by the Church Fathers the Early Church, nor the real Church itself.