Is it good to help a disabled widow by cutting her grass?

[DamianWarS]

Why would the eternal presence of God be chaos and darkness? That would only be the original condition of the creation.

At the end of the days of creation God blessed the seventh day and said it was holy. Every seventh day is in memory of that. Legalism is not necessarily involved. Just remember to do good, not going to work or more importantly make others work with your demand, and draw to God further communicating for others to do so. The law from God is not done, Jesus is the one who is the effective priesthood, sacrifice, and way for us to be clean as needed before God.

the entire creation account is in a chiastic structure that can be predicted. each vs has a parallel and this is very common in early Hebraic writing. For example days 1-3 are more separating events and days 4-6 are filling up with parallels with 1 & 4, 2 & 5, and 3 & 6. 1:1 is paralleled with 2:1. these are parallel each other in a chiastic structure. This leaves the chaos and darkness of 1:2 to be parcelled with the completion of day 7 in 2:2-3. This is no mistake and it matches perfectly in a chiastic structure which then reveals to us a meaning that day 7 is about the antithesis of 1:2. One is of chaos and the other of completion. Not only does it show us the meaning of day 7 it also shows us God is the answer to the darkness and chaos of 1:2. There are a lot of layers happening in the account and it also contrasts the existence of the leviathan as an ancient creation myth in the language "the deep" as there are myths that have creation from a great battle between a god and a leviathan type beast the result of which triggers creation. in the creation account, however, God silences this "deep" in an instant by speaking light silencing the myth with it. Westerners want to approach in a literal vacuum which is just not correct. the account has woven into speaking against pagan myths which is the backdrop we find the Hebrews in at the exodus event, a people driven by pagan practices. The goal of the account is not to tell us how it exactly happening, which would be pointless, but to silence paganism and proclaim a monotheistic God as the source behind all things.

Beyond the metaphors, God cares for all, including animals. We should not require others to work then. You could be violating others rights. God meant rest for us all.

spiritual rest is the deeper meaning of the account whereas physical rest is the surface meaning and not as important. We should never let physical rest get in the way of spiritual rest, spiritual rest should always be our goal, to receive it and to show it and it may happen by breaking physical rest (see Mat 12). if we feel strongly about not violating other people's rights for physical rest then we should turn off all nonessential services on the Sabbath that contribute to a workforce demand. this would include electricity, the internet, telephone/cell phone use, television, driving, going to a restaurant, using non-essential water (like taking a shower) and the list may go on. Anything that is non-essential that has a workforce behind it means we should discontinue its practice if we want to keep the 4th commandment. if we do anything that is non-essential that contributes to a workforce demand we are violating the 4th commandment by its letter. if we want to follow the logic of the physical it points to our heartbeat and breath as work. can you think of anyone who stopped breathing and stopped their heartbeat over the sabbath? there is only one I know of.

 

[FredVB]

I'd love to live without a car, but it isn't practical currently.

The other people at the seventh day church, where they mostly walking or driving?

Be that as it may, I still got by without my own car. It was financially more manageable for me. I would go by bus to where I worked, where it would be more than a few miles. Some work I had was still a very long way that way too. But there was work I was still walking several miles too. And at an older age, I can yet say I am a very good walker, even better than before.

As I said, the seventh day church I went to I was just visiting. I didn't really get to know individuals there. Apparently many, if not all, drove, but I can't say that for certain, let alone say how far they drove to get there. It was the only seventh day church in my community, had it been really farther I would have used a bus, but I don't use a bus unless I see it is necessary, that is, to get to another city. So I never went to try another seventh day church. I still do watch services online.

the entire creation account is in a chiastic structure that can be predicted. each vs has a parallel and this is very common in early Hebraic writing. For example days 1-3 are more separating events and days 4-6 are filling up with parallels with 1 & 4, 2 & 5, and 3 & 6. 1:1 is paralleled with 2:1. these are parallel each other in a chiastic structure. This leaves the chaos and darkness of 1:2 to be parcelled with the completion of day 7 in 2:2-3. This is no mistake and it matches perfectly in a chiastic structure which then reveals to us a meaning that day 7 is about the antithesis of 1:2. One is of chaos and the other of completion. Not only does it show us the meaning of day 7 it also shows us God is the answer to the darkness and chaos of 1:2. There are a lot of layers happening in the account and it also contrasts the existence of the leviathan as an ancient creation myth in the language "the deep" as there are myths that have creation from a great battle between a god and a leviathan type beast the result of which triggers creation. in the creation account, however, God silences this "deep" in an instant by speaking light silencing the myth with it. Westerners want to approach in a literal vacuum which is just not correct. the account has woven into speaking against pagan myths which is the backdrop we find the Hebrews in at the exodus event, a people driven by pagan practices. The goal of the account is not to tell us how it exactly happening, which would be pointless, but to silence paganism and proclaim a monotheistic God as the source behind all things.




spiritual rest is the deeper meaning of the account whereas physical rest is the surface meaning and not as important. We should never let physical rest get in the way of spiritual rest, spiritual rest should always be our goal, to receive it and to show it and it may happen by breaking physical rest (see Mat 12). if we feel strongly about not violating other people's rights for physical rest then we should turn off all nonessential services on the Sabbath that contribute to a workforce demand. this would include electricity, the internet, telephone/cell phone use, television, driving, going to a restaurant, using non-essential water (like taking a shower) and the list may go on. Anything that is non-essential that has a workforce behind it means we should discontinue its practice if we want to keep the 4th commandment. if we do anything that is non-essential that contributes to a workforce demand we are violating the 4th commandment by its letter. if we want to follow the logic of the physical it points to our heartbeat and breath as work. can you think of anyone who stopped breathing and stopped their heartbeat over the sabbath? there is only one I know of.

I am already familiar with there being chiastic structure to Bible books and portions in them. And I understand about spiritual applications. That is not sufficient to dismiss what I observe. Creation was not eternally existing, and darkness and chaos were only descriptive of creation just as it was brought about, darkness and chaos were not continuing all along with God before the creation, and the writing only has the start of creation contrasting with completion. And I see no way around God's clear statement that the seventh day, the Sabbath, is holy. That cannot then be obsolete.

 

[Leaf473]

Be that as it may, I still got by without my own car. It was financially more manageable for me. I would go by bus to where I worked, where it would be more than a few miles. Some work I had was still a very long way that way too. But there was work I was still walking several miles too. And at an older age, I can yet say I am a very good walker, even better than before.

As I said, the seventh day church I went to I was just visiting. I didn't really get to know individuals there. Apparently many, if not all, drove, but I can't say that for certain, let alone say how far they drove to get there. It was the only seventh day church in my community, had it been really farther I would have used a bus, but I don't use a bus unless I see it is necessary, that is, to get to another city. So I never went to try another seventh day church. I still do watch services online.



I am already familiar with there being chiastic structure to Bible books and portions in them. And I understand about spiritual applications. That is not sufficient to dismiss what I observe. Creation was not eternally existing, and darkness and chaos were only descriptive of creation just as it was brought about, darkness and chaos were not continuing all along with God before the creation, and the writing only has the start of creation contrasting with completion. And I see no way around God's clear statement that the seventh day, the Sabbath, is holy. That cannot then be obsolete.

If you're using online services on the Sabbath, that is requesting that other people work (data center technicians, for example).

I just bring this up because, as it relates to the thread title, some people were objecting to the idea of doing something on the Sabbath that could be done on a different day.

 

[Gary K]

If you're using online services on the Sabbath, that is requesting that other people work (data center technicians, for example).

I just bring this up because, as it relates to the thread title, some people were objecting to the idea of doing something on the Sabbath that could be done on a different day.

That is very legalistic. As those people will be working whether or not FredVB uses those services or not. I know of a lot of SDAs who both provide on line services, Amazing Facts for instance, or use online services to watch their local church service as I have done, or use them to post on this forum to discuss God and His love.

 

[Leaf473]

That is very legalistic. As those people will be working whether or not FredVB uses those services or not. I know of a lot of SDAs who both provide on line services, Amazing Facts for instance, or use online services to watch their local church service as I have done, or use them to post on this forum to discuss God and His love.

Well, it's taking the literal meaning of this

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20:10 - New Century Version

but the seventh day is a day of rest to honor the LORD your God. On that day no one may do any work: not you, your son or daughter, your male or female slaves, your animals, or the foreigners living in your cities.

www.biblegateway.com

Is it okay to ask people to do a little bit of work?
________________
Keeping with the thread title, is it good to pull through a McDonald's on the Sabbath? Or good on other days, but not the Sabbath?

 

[Gary K]

Well, it's taking the literal meaning of this.

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20:10 - New Century Version

but the seventh day is a day of rest to honor the LORD your God. On that day no one may do any work: not you, your son or daughter, your male or female slaves, your animals, or the foreigners living in your cities.

www.biblegateway.com

Is it okay to ask people to do a little bit of work?
________________
Keeping with the thread title, is it good to pull through a McDonald's on the Sabbath? Or good on other days, but not the Sabbath?

Once again that translation has a bias in it.

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

There is a big difference between cities and within thy gates which clearly means on your own property.

 

[DamianWarS]

I am already familiar with there being chiastic structure to Bible books and portions in them. And I understand about spiritual applications. That is not sufficient to dismiss what I observe. Creation was not eternally existing, and darkness and chaos were only descriptive of creation just as it was brought about, darkness and chaos were not continuing all along with God before the creation, and the writing only has the start of creation contrasting with completion. And I see no way around God's clear statement that the seventh day, the Sabbath, is holy. That cannot then be obsolete.

These are abstract western problems not ancient Hebrew problems. The creation account presents a unformed chaos existent within primordial waters called simply "the deep". Where this came from is not a question an ancient Hebrew would ask nor is it the focus of the account.

The very word for create means more to form or fill up, even has roots to fatten. Sort of like filling up a pillow case with stuffing. The first 3 days God doesn't create he orders and separates that which is already there. Then the last 3 days he fills up these places. In Gen 2 it shows us Adam is created by forming dirt so this idea of exnilo or from nothing is too abstract of an idea for ancient thinking.

This is not challenging the sovereignty of God, it's just reading the account the way an ancient would approach it and understanding the goals of the account as well as the limits. Since the goal of the account is not a question of what was before this event it's not an important detail and it doesn't matter in the context of the account.

The noun Sabbath doesn't appear in the book of Genesis. On day 7 the word is a verb meaning to rest/cease. God declares this day holy but he doesn't make any commandment for this day which is unique to Moses's time. What I obserb in the account is the very strong contrast between light and darkness and the spiritual application this has which is one of the strongest spiritual symbols in the bible. This is not my mind making this up, scripture reveals this meaning in 2 Cor 4:6 tells us Jesus is the light of creation and 2 Cor 5:17 or Gal 6:15 speaking of the new creation... Also every place it mention light overcoming darkness This reveals creation is far deeper than the surface words and the goal is showing us light being spoken into darkness and the finished work is day 7.

Sabbath commandment is consistent with this. It's meaning is rooted in the 7th day, not the 7th day rooted in the 4th commandment. So there is no reason to superimpose the commandment over the 7th day. The 4th commadment is as much about taking rest as it is giving rest. Even animals/slaves received rest. The thing with animals/slaves is they have no authority to take rest themselves and to take rest they need to be given it. This is a foreshadow for salvation as is the 7th day.

The law has a strong focus on the physical. We may observe physical rest but physical rest alone can not give us spiritual rest which is what the 4th and 7th point to, this points to Christ. In Mat 12 it shows us even conditions where we make break rest to focus on "saving sheep" a other deep symbol of the bible for salvation. Physical rest should never be stressed over spiritual rest. Spiritual rest is the goal and what we should be focused on even without physical rest and is the unavoidable meaning of the 7th day and 4th commandment.

 

[Gary K]

These are abstract western problems not ancient Hebrew problems. The creation account presents a unformed chaos existent within primordial waters called simply "the deep". Where this came from is not a question an ancient Hebrew would ask nor is it the focus of the account.

The very word for create means more to form or fill up, even has roots to fatten. Sort of like filling up a pillow case with stuffing. The first 3 days God doesn't create he orders and separates that which is already there. Then the last 3 days he fills up these places. In Gen 2 it shows us Adam is created by forming dirt so this idea of exnilo or from nothing is too abstract of an idea for ancient thinking.

This is not challenging the sovereignty of God, it's just reading the account the way an ancient would approach it and understanding the goals of the account as well as the limits. Since the goal of the account is not a question of what was before this event it's not an important detail and it doesn't matter in the context of the account.

The noun Sabbath doesn't appear in the book of Genesis. On day 7 the word is a verb meaning to rest/cease. God declares this day holy but he doesn't make any commandment for this day which is unique to Moses's time. What I obserb in the account is the very strong contrast between light and darkness and the spiritual application this has which is one of the strongest spiritual symbols in the bible. This is not my mind making this up, scripture reveals this meaning in 2 Cor 4:6 tells us Jesus is the light of creation and 2 Cor 5:17 or Gal 6:15 speaking of the new creation... Also every place it mention light overcoming darkness This reveals creation is far deeper than the surface words and the goal is showing us light being spoken into darkness and the finished work is day 7.

Sabbath commandment is consistent with this. It's meaning is rooted in the 7th day, not the 7th day rooted in the 4th commandment. So there is no reason to superimpose the commandment over the 7th day. The 4th commadment is as much about taking rest as it is giving rest. Even animals/slaves received rest. The thing with animals/slaves is they have no authority to take rest themselves and to take rest they need to be given it. This is a foreshadow for salvation as is the 7th day.

The law has a strong focus on the physical. We may observe physical rest but physical rest alone can not give us spiritual rest which is what the 4th and 7th point to, this points to Christ. In Mat 12 it shows us even conditions where we make break rest to focus on "saving sheep" a other deep symbol of the bible for salvation. Physical rest should never be stressed over spiritual rest. Spiritual rest is the goal and what we should be focused on even without physical rest and is the unavoidable meaning of the 7th day and 4th commandment.

I like your explanation but if baffles me that you don't see the importance of keeping the 4th commandment given your understanding of it's importance.

 

[Leaf473]

Once again that translation has a bias in it.



There is a big difference between cities and within thy gates which clearly means on your own property.

I think Within your Gates refers to within the gates of a walled city; that is, under the general protection of the nation of Israel.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 12:12 - King James Version

And ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God, ye, and your sons, and your daughters, and your menservants, and your maidservants, and the Levite that is within your gates; forasmuch as he hath no part nor inheritance with you.

www.biblegateway.com

Compare that with Your household here

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 12:7 - King James Version

And there ye shall eat before the LORD your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the LORD thy God hath blessed thee.

www.biblegateway.com

Anyways, are you saying it's okay for your sons and daughters to work, as long as it's outside the house? Or just foreigners can work outside the house?

Interesting possibilities, though. Mowing the disabled widow's lawn would be done outside.

 

[Gary K]

I think Within your Gates refers to within the gates of a walled city; that is, under the general protection of the nation of Israel.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 12:12 - King James Version

And ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God, ye, and your sons, and your daughters, and your menservants, and your maidservants, and the Levite that is within your gates; forasmuch as he hath no part nor inheritance with you.

www.biblegateway.com

Compare that with Your household here

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 12:7 - King James Version

And there ye shall eat before the LORD your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the LORD thy God hath blessed thee.

www.biblegateway.com

Anyways, are you saying it's okay for your sons and daughters to work, as long as it's outside the house? Or just foreigners can work outside the house?

Interesting possibilities, though. Mowing the disabled widow's lawn would be done outside.

I disagree. as usual. Looking up the word translated as gates in Strong's the original meaning was an opening. It was also termed to be a portal and lastly a city. That the 20th Century Bible chose to use that word shows bias as it should be the very last option to be used where the context does not explicitly show it means city.

Why would I have my kids do something I have repeatedly disagreed with, i. e. working on Sabbath? By the way I have a couple of step kids as when I got married my wife had a couple of kids by her ex. I chose not to have any because I was afraid after the way my parents treated me that I wouldn't be fair to them if my wife and I had any kids.

 

[Leaf473]

I disagree. as usual. Looking up the word translated as gates in Strong's the original meaning was an opening. It was also termed to be a portal and lastly a city. That the 20th Century Bible chose to use that word shows bias as it should be the very last option to be used where the context does not explicitly show it means city.

Why would I have my kids do something I have repeatedly disagreed with, i. e. working on Sabbath? By the way I have a couple of step kids as when I got married my wife had a couple of kids by her ex. I chose not to have any because I was afraid after the way my parents treated me that I wouldn't be fair to them if my wife and I had any kids.

Well, the idea would be that if Within your Gates means Within your property, then the stranger would be allowed to work, as long as it was off your property.

The stranger only, or the "thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle"?

 

[Gary K]

Well, the idea would be that if Within your Gates means Within your property, then the stranger would be allowed to work, as long as it was off your property.

The stranger only, or the "thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle"?

That's right, God is not a tyrant.

I don't understand why you keep on throwing in irrelevancies such as your second paragraph.

 

[Leaf473]

That's right, God is not a tyrant.

I don't understand why you keep on throwing in irrelevancies such as your second paragraph.

I don't think it's irrelevant. Strangers on your property are not allowed to work on the Sabbath, but they can work other places on the Sabbath. I've never heard anyone take that view before.

Is it only the stranger who can work as long as it's off your property, or can your maidservant do that as well?

If the disabled widow's lawn is on a stranger's property, is it good to mow it, regardless of the day of the week?

 

[Gary K]

I don't think it's irrelevant. Strangers on your property are not allowed to work on the Sabbath, but they can work other places on the Sabbath. I've never heard anyone take that view before.

Is it only the stranger who can work as long as it's off your property, or can your maidservant do that as well?

If the disabled widow's lawn is on a stranger's property, is it good to mow it, regardless of the day of the week?

Sigh, The 4th commandment says who cannot work on your own property. You know I agree with doing good on the Sabbath so what's the point of the question? Are you just hoping to catch me in some inconsistency?

 

[Leaf473]

Sigh, The 4th commandment says who cannot work on your own property. You know I agree with doing good on the Sabbath so what's the point of the question? Are you just hoping to catch me in some inconsistency?

No, I'm not hoping to catch you in an inconsistency. You're saying things I haven't heard from any Seventh-Day observer yet, so I'm wanting to be sure I understand you.

Most people who observe the seventh day say it's no significant work, although they often allow for good work, God's work, or emergencies.

It sounds to me like you're saying something different. You're probably not, but I'm interested in finding out.

So... Your maidservant? Where can she work on the 7th Day? Anywhere that's not your property?

 

[Gary K]

No, I'm not hoping to catch you in an inconsistency. You're saying things I haven't heard from any Seventh-Day observer yet, so I'm wanting to be sure I understand you.

Most people who observe the seventh day say it's no significant work, although they often allow for good work, God's work, or emergencies.

It sounds to me like you're saying something different. You're probably not, but I'm interested in finding out.

So... Your maidservant? Where can she work on the 7th Day? Anywhere that's not your property?

That is not my understanding of that text as our culture is so radically different than rhe Israelites/Jews culture that we have problems understanding OT scripture. Their slaves/servants were actually part of their families. An understanding of the Hebrew concept of ga'al helps to understand this. The book of Ruth is an example of how that God given law worked. Here is an example of how close a manservant could be to his owner.

Exo 21:3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
Exo 21:4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
Exo 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

 

[DamianWarS]

I like your explanation but if baffles me that you don't see the importance of keeping the 4th commandment given your understanding of it's importance.

what is more important physical circumcision or spiritual circumcision? may I be physically circumcised but not spiritually? may I be spiritually circumcised but not physically? should the lack of physical circumcision prevent spiritual circumcision?

I approach sabbath the same way

 

[Gary K]

what is more important physical circumcision or spiritual circumcision? may I be physically circumcised but not spiritually? may I be spiritually circumcised but not physically? should the lack of physical circumcision prevent spiritual circumcision?

I approach sabbath the same way

Why? Circumcision is the physical mark given to Abraham to show his. and his descendant's, allegiance to God which means it is not part of God's law. Since we aren't Israelites/Jews it is not applicable to us. But Sabbath worship is as at least twice in the OT God says it is a sign of allegiance to Him and that He is the one who sanctifies us.

Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

This is God's promise to us that He will save us and that He has always loved us. Why wouldn't we respond with love to that message?

 

[Leaf473]

That is not my understanding of that text as our culture is so radically different than rhe Israelites/Jews culture that we have problems understanding OT scripture. Their slaves/servants were actually part of their families. An understanding of the Hebrew concept of ga'al helps to understand this. The book of Ruth is an example of how that God given law worked. Here is an example of how close a manservant could be to his owner.

So... Are you saying it's okay for the stranger who is not part of your household to work at the data center, but not your maidservant?
________________
Did you want to respond to this?
Does it make a difference if they are strangers or maidservants? Is it okay because they would be working there anyways?

Keeping with the thread title, is it good to pull through a McDonald's on the Sabbath? Or good on other days, but not the Sabbath?

 

[Gary K]

So... Are you saying it's okay for the stranger who is not part of your household to work at the data center, but not your maidservant?
________________
Did you want to respond to this?
Does it make a difference if they are strangers or maidservants? Is it okay because they would be working there anyways?

Yes. I am not a tyrant who would tell someone else what they can or cannot do.