Is it good to help a disabled widow by cutting her grass?

[FredVB]

If you're using online services on the Sabbath, that is requesting that other people work (data center technicians, for example).

I just bring this up because, as it relates to the thread title, some people were objecting to the idea of doing something on the Sabbath that could be done on a different day.

I am not legalistic, and it didn't seem that you are legalistic. Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath, it would be the same for women too. As Christ told us it is not sin to do good work on Sabbath that serves God, but that is not doing a paid job. If you have servants (or employees) you have working for you on a Sabbath, that is sin, regardless of whether you believe that or not. The Bible says it is the Sabbath. But it would not be sin to use what is available anyway for godly purposes. Going further with what is permissible or not on Sabbath is only going to be legalistic.

These are abstract western problems not ancient Hebrew problems. The creation account presents a unformed chaos existent within primordial waters called simply "the deep". Where this came from is not a question an ancient Hebrew would ask nor is it the focus of the account.

The very word for create means more to form or fill up, even has roots to fatten. Sort of like filling up a pillow case with stuffing. The first 3 days God doesn't create he orders and separates that which is already there. Then the last 3 days he fills up these places. In Gen 2 it shows us Adam is created by forming dirt so this idea of exnilo or from nothing is too abstract of an idea for ancient thinking.

This is not challenging the sovereignty of God, it's just reading the account the way an ancient would approach it and understanding the goals of the account as well as the limits. Since the goal of the account is not a question of what was before this event it's not an important detail and it doesn't matter in the context of the account.

The noun Sabbath doesn't appear in the book of Genesis. On day 7 the word is a verb meaning to rest/cease. God declares this day holy but he doesn't make any commandment for this day which is unique to Moses's time. What I obserb in the account is the very strong contrast between light and darkness and the spiritual application this has which is one of the strongest spiritual symbols in the bible. This is not my mind making this up, scripture reveals this meaning in 2 Cor 4:6 tells us Jesus is the light of creation and 2 Cor 5:17 or Gal 6:15 speaking of the new creation... Also every place it mention light overcoming darkness This reveals creation is far deeper than the surface words and the goal is showing us light being spoken into darkness and the finished work is day 7.

Sabbath commandment is consistent with this. It's meaning is rooted in the 7th day, not the 7th day rooted in the 4th commandment. So there is no reason to superimpose the commandment over the 7th day. The 4th commadment is as much about taking rest as it is giving rest. Even animals/slaves received rest. The thing with animals/slaves is they have no authority to take rest themselves and to take rest they need to be given it. This is a foreshadow for salvation as is the 7th day.

The law has a strong focus on the physical. We may observe physical rest but physical rest alone can not give us spiritual rest which is what the 4th and 7th point to, this points to Christ. In Mat 12 it shows us even conditions where we make break rest to focus on "saving sheep" a other deep symbol of the bible for salvation. Physical rest should never be stressed over spiritual rest. Spiritual rest is the goal and what we should be focused on even without physical rest and is the unavoidable meaning of the 7th day and 4th commandment.

There was the unformed world before God made everything in the world, what there was before that was unfinished, prepared for what God would create in it. And the seventh day that was all finished, and declared by God to be holy. The Sabbath made for man is with remembrance of that. And spiritual rest which is important makes this physical rest for us possible in the required way, that those without Christ never had, Sabbath is for those who can have that rest, which we do in Christ.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am not legalistic, and it didn't seem that you are legalistic. Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath, it would be the same for women too. As Christ told us it is not sin to do good work on Sabbath that serves God, but that is not doing a paid job. If you have servants (or employees) you have working for you on a Sabbath, that is sin, regardless of whether you believe that or not. The Bible says it is the Sabbath. But it would not be sin to use what is available anyway for godly purposes. Going further with what is permissible or not on Sabbath is only going to be legalistic.


There was the unformed world before God made everything in the world, what there was before that was unfinished, prepared for what God would create in it. And the seventh day that was all finished, and declared by God to be holy. The Sabbath made for man is with remembrance of that. And spiritual rest which is important makes this physical rest for us possible in the required way, that those without Christ never had, Sabbath is for those who can have that rest, which we do in Christ.

We do live in a very complex world now where, like it or not, people are working on the Sabbath for Christians, as well as everyone else. For example, whether or not we even turn on an electric light in our house, there are people at work making sure that electricity is available.

If one were legalistic about the Sabbath, then one would have to revert to a very primitive lifestyle. Ironically, even the most orthodox of modern Jews are quite complacent about these aspects of the Sabbath.

 

[Leaf473]

I am not legalistic, and it didn't seem that you are legalistic. Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath, it would be the same for women too. As Christ told us it is not sin to do good work on Sabbath that serves God, but that is not doing a paid job. If you have servants (or employees) you have working for you on a Sabbath, that is sin, regardless of whether you believe that or not.

Hi FredVB, long time, no see Good to hear from you again.

In your view, can you use the services on the Sabbath of someone who is being paid by someone else? For example, could you use a McDonald's drive-thru on the Sabbath, since the people working there would be working there anyways?

The Bible says it is the Sabbath. But it would not be sin to use what is available anyway for godly purposes. Going further with what is permissible or not on Sabbath is only going to be legalistic.


There was the unformed world before God made everything in the world, what there was before that was unfinished, prepared for what God would create in it. And the seventh day that was all finished, and declared by God to be holy. The Sabbath made for man is with remembrance of that. And spiritual rest which is important makes this physical rest for us possible in the required way, that those without Christ never had, Sabbath is for those who can have that rest, which we do in Christ.

 

[DamianWarS]

I am not legalistic, and it didn't seem that you are legalistic. Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath, it would be the same for women too. As Christ told us it is not sin to do good work on Sabbath that serves God, but that is not doing a paid job. If you have servants (or employees) you have working for you on a Sabbath, that is sin, regardless of whether you believe that or not. The Bible says it is the Sabbath. But it would not be sin to use what is available anyway for godly purposes. Going further with what is permissible or not on Sabbath is only going to be legalistic.

Paul encourages us to remain in the situation God has called us in. (1 Cor 7:17-20). He even addresses slaves in 21-24 again encouraging believers to remain in the situation where God has called them. Some have the option to not work on the Sabbath to many it's a luxury they can't afford.

If we choose to disengage from all services with a paid workforce behind it this would mean turning off the internet, cell phones, TV, not driving, and yes not even using electricity provided these things are nonessential. If all Christians banded together and did not drive, did not use the internet, only essential use of electricity in American there would be a mass drop in demand for these services on the Sabbath which would eventually decrease the workforce during those days, thereby allowing others to participate in the sabbath as well. Christians have a lot more power than they realize, but no one cares do they? All they care about is a personal Sabbath and what if using a switch in their house contributes to a paid workforce demand it's best not to think about that too much and keep the sabbath to what you can see not what you can't see.

But I'm not encouraging you to do this because it's silly. It's time we rethink what the Sabbath actually is and what we actually value. because it certainly is not about valuing ceasing work and if we think it is we are lying to ourselves and in doing so we ignore the wide access need of rest that is upon us all (even those working). When we don't care about the workforce behind things we refuse to give up this is a counter-gospel and counter-sabbath sentiment. The Sabbath is about ensuring others have rest as much as it is yourself having rest.

When rest is defined through Christ however we free ourselves of the demands of law-based rest so we may actually walk out the door and help our neighbors even if they are building a shed. if motivated to only respond to life and death situations, then view all those without Christ as those lying in a ditch left for dead. then we may go to them and help them in their need, except work to happen as dying people tend to need a lot of help.

There was the unformed world before God made everything in the world, what there was before that was unfinished, prepared for what God would create in it. And the seventh day that was all finished, and declared by God to be holy. The Sabbath made for man is with remembrance of that. And spiritual rest which is important makes this physical rest for us possible in the required way, that those without Christ never had, Sabbath is for those who can have that rest, which we do in Christ.

I too was unformed and drowning in the darkness but the spirit of God was hovering over me then in a moment light was spoken into me that transformed my life. He started a work in me by separating the darkness, organizing the good, baptizing me in the waters putting to dead the old, and what emerged was new life then cultivating and planting so that I may bear fruit and spread that life to others. He then calls me holy, not unlike how the 7th day was called holy. this sabbath is made and designed for man. sound like anything you've read before? The historical accuracy of the creation account has no bearing on the sovereignty of God. It is also an event that has long passed with no human eyewitnesses so it is unverifiable based on the human record and limited value today as a raw historical narrative. The who is important, God is the source behind all things is an important statement and the "who" is the historical takeaway, but the "how" simply has little to no value. When we however read the account as a salvation account it has depths of meaning that whole libraries of books could be dedicated to. This is the meaning we should care about.

 

[Gary K]

Paul encourages us to remain in the situation God has called us in. (1 Cor 7:17-20). He even addresses slaves in 21-24 again encouraging believers to remain in the situation where God has called them. Some have the option to not work on the Sabbath to many it's a luxury they can't afford.

If we choose to disengage from all services with a paid workforce behind it this would mean turning off the internet, cell phones, TV, not driving, and yes not even using electricity provided these things are nonessential. If all Christians banded together and did not drive, did not use the internet, only essential use of electricity in American there would be a mass drop in demand for these services on the Sabbath which would eventually decrease the workforce during those days, thereby allowing others to participate in the sabbath as well. Christians have a lot more power than they realize, but no one cares do they? All they care about is a personal Sabbath and what if using a switch in their house contributes to a paid workforce demand it's best not to think about that too much and keep the sabbath to what you can see not what you can't see.

But I'm not encouraging you to do this because it's silly. It's time we rethink what the Sabbath actually is and what we actually value. because it certainly is not about valuing ceasing work and if we think it is we are lying to ourselves and in doing so we ignore the wide access need of rest that is upon us all (even those working). When we don't care about the workforce behind things we refuse to give up this is a counter-gospel and counter-sabbath sentiment. The Sabbath is about ensuring others have rest as much as it is yourself having rest.

When rest is defined through Christ however we free ourselves of the demands of law-based rest so we may actually walk out the door and help our neighbors even if they are building a shed. if motivated to only respond to life and death situations, then view all those without Christ as those lying in a ditch left for dead. then we may go to them and help them in their need, except work to happen as dying people tend to need a lot of help.



I too was unformed and drowning in the darkness but the spirit of God was hovering over me then in a moment light was spoken into me that transformed my life. He started a work in me by separating the darkness, organizing the good, baptizing me in the waters putting to dead the old, and what emerged was new life then cultivating and planting so that I may bear fruit and spread that life to others. He then calls me holy, not unlike how the 7th day was called holy. this sabbath is made and designed for man. sound like anything you've read before? The historical accuracy of the creation account has no bearing on the sovereignty of God. It is also an event that has long passed with no human eyewitnesses so it is unverifiable based on the human record and limited value today as a raw historical narrative. The who is important, God is the source behind all things is an important statement and the "who" is the historical takeaway, but the "how" simply has little to no value. When we however read the account as a salvation account it has depths of meaning that whole libraries of books could be dedicated to. This is the meaning we should care about.

I find you reasoning lacking We are told to be content in where ever we are called. Paul gave that advice in very specific circumstances.

1Coeinthians 7: 17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord’s freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ’s servant.
23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

That does not mean I can be a con artist and remain one after conversion. Telling someone they don't have to changer after conversion could very well cost a person their own eternal life as well as the person they advised.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I find you reasoning lacking We are told to be content in where ever we are called. Paul gave that advice in very specific circumstances.



That does not mean I can be a con artist and remain one after conversion. Telling someone they don't have to changer after conversion could very well cost a person their own eternal life as well as the person they advised.

This reminds of the story about a notorious organized crime boss in the 1930's who attended a Christian Revival and went forward and prayed the sinner's prayer. His conversion made national news. However, within a relatively short time it was discovered that he was still actively working in his chosen vocation. He was confronted concerning the obvious dichotomy, but was quite perplexed. He said that Christianity has Christian movie stars, Christian sports starts, etc. What was essentially wrong with being a Christian mobster, he asked.

 

[FredVB]

We do live in a very complex world now where, like it or not, people are working on the Sabbath for Christians, as well as everyone else. For example, whether or not we even turn on an electric light in our house, there are people at work making sure that electricity is available.

If one were legalistic about the Sabbath, then one would have to revert to a very primitive lifestyle. Ironically, even the most orthodox of modern Jews are quite complacent about these aspects of the Sabbath.

Yes, many work on any day of the week without distinction between any day of the week, we are all aware of this. We are not all individually responsible for stopping this. But we are responsible for those who are employees working for us as their employer, or their master. And it is clear from the Bible that the seventh day is holy, it is the Sabbath. That said means it is not conditional on anything, even if many of us are not observing Sabbath. I did say I am not legalistic. But I am not against simplicity in living, or living primitively.

Hi FredVB, long time, no see Good to hear from you again.

In your view, can you use the services on the Sabbath of someone who is being paid by someone else? For example, could you use a McDonald's drive-thru on the Sabbath, since the people working there would be working there anyways?

I don't judge others in what they do, for Sabbath. I do not drive and I never go to McDonald's, Sabbath or otherwise, and I have not been going out for a long time and rarely when I did, last that I think of was on Sundays.

Paul encourages us to remain in the situation God has called us in. (1 Cor 7:17-20). He even addresses slaves in 21-24 again encouraging believers to remain in the situation where God has called them. Some have the option to not work on the Sabbath to many it's a luxury they can't afford.

If we choose to disengage from all services with a paid workforce behind it this would mean turning off the internet, cell phones, TV, not driving, and yes not even using electricity provided these things are nonessential. If all Christians banded together and did not drive, did not use the internet, only essential use of electricity in American there would be a mass drop in demand for these services on the Sabbath which would eventually decrease the workforce during those days, thereby allowing others to participate in the sabbath as well. Christians have a lot more power than they realize, but no one cares do they? All they care about is a personal Sabbath and what if using a switch in their house contributes to a paid workforce demand it's best not to think about that too much and keep the sabbath to what you can see not what you can't see.

But I'm not encouraging you to do this because it's silly. It's time we rethink what the Sabbath actually is and what we actually value. because it certainly is not about valuing ceasing work and if we think it is we are lying to ourselves and in doing so we ignore the wide access need of rest that is upon us all (even those working). When we don't care about the workforce behind things we refuse to give up this is a counter-gospel and counter-sabbath sentiment. The Sabbath is about ensuring others have rest as much as it is yourself having rest.

When rest is defined through Christ however we free ourselves of the demands of law-based rest so we may actually walk out the door and help our neighbors even if they are building a shed. if motivated to only respond to life and death situations, then view all those without Christ as those lying in a ditch left for dead. then we may go to them and help them in their need, except work to happen as dying people tend to need a lot of help.



I too was unformed and drowning in the darkness but the spirit of God was hovering over me then in a moment light was spoken into me that transformed my life. He started a work in me by separating the darkness, organizing the good, baptizing me in the waters putting to dead the old, and what emerged was new life then cultivating and planting so that I may bear fruit and spread that life to others. He then calls me holy, not unlike how the 7th day was called holy. this sabbath is made and designed for man. sound like anything you've read before? The historical accuracy of the creation account has no bearing on the sovereignty of God. It is also an event that has long passed with no human eyewitnesses so it is unverifiable based on the human record and limited value today as a raw historical narrative. The who is important, God is the source behind all things is an important statement and the "who" is the historical takeaway, but the "how" simply has little to no value. When we however read the account as a salvation account it has depths of meaning that whole libraries of books could be dedicated to. This is the meaning we should care about.

I understand fully that employees might not have the choice whether to not go to work on the seventh day, as their Sabbath, or to go still. I did say that responsibility is on the employers and they will be accountable before God. I do try to limit all my choices for what to work on the seventh day as Sabbath now, I was not always approaching it this way. But I avoid right where I am living and staying much of the time turning things on or off and try just having things on stay on, and choose what I do for doing really good.

 

[Gary K]

Yes, many work on any day of the week without distinction between any day of the week, we are all aware of this. We are not all individually responsible for stopping this. But we are responsible for those who are employees working for us as their employer, or their master. And it is clear from the Bible that the seventh day is holy, it is the Sabbath. That said means it is not conditional on anything, even if many of us are not observing Sabbath. I did say I am not legalistic. But I am not against simplicity in living, or living primitively.



I don't judge others in what they do, for Sabbath. I do not drive and I never go to McDonald's, Sabbath or otherwise, and I have not been going out for a long time and rarely when I did, last that I think of was on Sundays.



I understand fully that employees might not have the choice whether to not go to work on the seventh day, as their Sabbath, or to go still. I did say that responsibility is on the employers and they will be accountable before God. I do try to limit all my choices for what to work on the seventh day as Sabbath now, I was not always approaching it this way. But I avoid right where I am living and staying much of the time turning things on or off and try just having things on stay on, and choose what I do for doing really good.

Good for you. Your actions tell me you are honest in heart and God approves of honesty. In fact David said He rakes pleasure in it.

1Chronicles 29: 17 I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.*n5

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, many work on any day of the week without distinction between any day of the week, we are all aware of this. We are not all individually responsible for stopping this. But we are responsible for those who are employees working for us as their employer, or their master. And it is clear from the Bible that the seventh day is holy, it is the Sabbath. That said means it is not conditional on anything, even if many of us are not observing Sabbath. I did say I am not legalistic. But I am not against simplicity in living, or living primitively.

I don't judge others in what they do, for Sabbath. I do not drive and I never go to McDonald's, Sabbath or otherwise, and I have not been going out for a long time and rarely when I did, last that I think of was on Sundays.

Cool! But driving and McDonald's aside, what is your view? Is it okay to use the services on the Sabbath of someone who is being paid by someone else?

Of course, if you don't want to discuss it anymore, that's fine

I understand fully that employees might not have the choice whether to not go to work on the seventh day, as their Sabbath, or to go still. I did say that responsibility is on the employers and they will be accountable before God. I do try to limit all my choices for what to work on the seventh day as Sabbath now, I was not always approaching it this way. But I avoid right where I am living and staying much of the time turning things on or off and try just having things on stay on, and choose what I do for doing really good.

 

[DamianWarS]

I find you reasoning lacking We are told to be content in where ever we are called. Paul gave that advice in very specific circumstances.



That does not mean I can be a con artist and remain one after conversion. Telling someone they don't have to changer after conversion could very well cost a person their own eternal life as well as the person they advised.

we are called under the law of Christ, not under the law of Moses, but also not lawless. So indeed we are called to live as though we follow Christ in all our actions. The Sabbath according to the law tells us to keep the sabbath we need to ensure those under our care have Sabbath as well (rather than hoard it for ourselves) The gospel charges us with spreading it to the far corners of the earth. There is a parallel between Sabbath and Gospel and it's intentional as only Christ has the authority to give us true sabbath and the only way my neighbor may have rest is if they too respond to Christ's call on their lives. It is our charge as it is with the law, to ensure those under our care have Sabbath and if we just sweep this thought under a rug we dishonor the Sabbath we do not keep it. Who is under your care? I'm pretty sure the same question was asked to Jesus when asked "who is my neighbor?"

 

[DamianWarS]

I understand fully that employees might not have the choice whether to not go to work on the seventh day, as their Sabbath, or to go still. I did say that responsibility is on the employers and they will be accountable before God. I do try to limit all my choices for what to work on the seventh day as Sabbath now, I was not always approaching it this way. But I avoid right where I am living and staying much of the time turning things on or off and try just having things on stay on, and choose what I do for doing really good.

perhaps it's time we stop looking at the sabbath in a 10 commandments vacuum. The Sabbath is the rest of God, this is salvation through Christ and is consistent with every aspect of the Sabbath you can read about in the bible. So where you look at it and think it's not my problem, I see a mission of perhaps billions without rest. Sabbath law in fact mandates we ensure those under our care have rest, so who is under your care? may I be so bold as to reinterpret this in a gospel context and ask instead "Who is your neighbor?" (*hint everyone you encounter in need) so rather than cross the road as someone lies in the ditch dying (yes this can be applied spiritually speaking) and saying that's not my problem I would rather respond. if in doing so it involves any aspect of work then I will do it for the glory of God

 

[FredVB]

You can only spiritualize so much before doing an injustice to passages or commandments.