Is it good to help a disabled widow by cutting her grass?

[SabbathBlessings]

If you do what is really good, you are not being paid for it. Being motivated by pay for what is being done cancels good of what might be done.

I do not drive, not just on Sabbath but at any time. I see there might be limits to going places. Is it making others work for Sabbath to need fuel then? I do see how making others work on Sabbath is serious, maybe more so than our choices for ourselves on Sabbath that don't impose on others.

This is why God created a Preparation Day, so you don't have to do these types of things on the Sabbath.

 

[FredVB]

I was thinking something similar about driving. If your car breaks down, will you just leave it there until after sunset? Or will a tow truck driver have to work to come tow the car?

There apparently are always uncertainties with vehicles and with driving. It seems better to be avoided when possible most specifically on Sabbath.

This is why God created a Preparation Day, so you don't have to do these types of things on the Sabbath.

Certainly. It was harder when beginning. I avoid cooking on Sabbath with preparing cooked food ahead of the sunset so it finished by Sabbath, unless I am sick, and other than having minimal things heated, I just have the next cooked meal after Sabbath is over, since I have observed it this way. I learned to do what I can to avoid having others work for me when it is Sabbath.

 

[Leaf473]

There apparently are always uncertainties with vehicles and with driving. It seems better to be avoided when possible most specifically on Sabbath.

Sounds good

 

[FredVB]

Sounds good

It is easier for me with just not having a vehicle and not having plans for any travel for Sabbath. But even with planning to not go somewhere on Sabbath with having any vehicle it would still be a temptation, I am sure.

 

[Gary K]

More of man’s wisdom. Sinning by doing things menial on the sabbath is not purpose driven life to show people Christ. It is setting a bad example by sinning. Jesus showed the example. Let’s go with that and not add what is not. He healed and showed if an emergency arises, like healing or pulling an ox out of a ditch take care of it. Cutting someone grass is not that. Do it on another day.

Hi HIM,
Long time no see.

I think the argument being made here is about showing people the love of God. To me that should be our number one priority in our lives. It is God's love that draws all of us to Him. Jesus said, and I, if I be lifted up will draw all men unto me. How could He say that? Because the cross is the greatest exhibition of love ever made. So demonstrating God's love is the right thing to do. It is never a sin.

I've made that argument here before only I used what I feel is a better scenario to make my point. I used as an example an elderly neighbor mowing his lawn on a hot Sabbath day and having to stop to keep from having a heat stroke and going over and completing his chore.

 

[FredVB]

I see it as one small part of seeking God's higher will to do that. I see importance in valuing that but there are other things too, for God's sake, and involving others.

 

[FredVB]

I see the design from the start, which includes this, is of the higher will of God, that which is shown earlier in the Bible is, while concessions were made for fallen humanity, even those who become God's people, for the stubborn ways when there is change from what is earliest, God doesn't change, and it includes ways for us to eat, and how to live on the land, and there was nothing ever said for change to stewardship we were to have to this earth.

 

[Leaf473]

I see the design from the start, which includes this, is of the higher will of God, that which is shown earlier in the Bible is, while concessions were made for fallen humanity, even those who become God's people, for the stubborn ways when there is change from what is earliest, God doesn't change, and it includes ways for us to eat, and how to live on the land, and there was nothing ever said for change to stewardship we were to have to this earth.

Yes

Bible Gateway passage: Ecclesiastes 7:29 - New American Standard Bible 1995

Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices.”

www.biblegateway.com

When it comes to helping the disabled widow, is that a good thing to do in God's first plan, or a concession?

 

[DamianWarS]

It is easier for me with just not having a vehicle and not having plans for any travel for Sabbath. But even with planning to not go somewhere on Sabbath with having any vehicle it would still be a temptation, I am sure.

Driving can be problematic. To drive on the Sabbath doesn't just risk running out of fuel but it creates a demand for all workforce services related to cars for that day that may be all counted as unnecessary.

For example if there were fewer cars on the road during the Sabbath there would be fewer accidence and fewer roadside services, fewer speeding tickets given out by police and fewer cars needing to refuel... Not to mention few people that need to refuel or go to rest stops. All of these are demand based services, without the demand the need for the service is reduced and sometimes may not be needed at all.

This is a similar problem with electricity when it comes to unnecessary use. Or using a phones or the internet. All of these things create a demand for the day we use it on, and the more people use it, the more a workforce is needed to maintain it.

We may say it's essential services and it's running if we use it or not. Western Christians can be enabled with a lot of power if all our values are aligned. We are a large number in the west. Banned together if we all of a sudden stop driving, stop using the internet or stop using electricity on the sabbath this will greatly reduce demand on this day and you can bet people will take notice.

It seems however no one wants to take it that far and throw in a lot of exceptions. The law of Sabbath is broadly don't work and don't cause others to work. We're good at the first part, but as long as we don't see it we don't care about the last part.

 

[Leaf473]

This is a similar problem with electricity when it comes to unnecessary use. Or using a phones or the internet.

It's an interesting situation. First off, I'm fine with people doing or not doing whatever their conscience says on the Sabbath.

But unnecessary activities on our part do sometimes cause other people to work; moderators here on CF, people working at data centers that process the internet. There are seventh-day churches that live stream their services, but they probably haven't thought about it

Hopefully not too far off topic, but I have wondered historically what Seventh-Day observers did about traveling to meetings as it relates to horses. Did they all walk? (Not trying to judge or criticize, just interested )

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20:10 - New American Standard Bible 1995

but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

www.biblegateway.com

-just one more thought... Is it good to milk a dairy cow on the seventh day? The Israelites probably kept calves around just for that reason. But in modern farming?

 

[DamianWarS]

It's an interesting situation. First off, I'm fine with people doing or not doing whatever their conscience says on the Sabbath.

But unnecessary activities on our part do sometimes cause other people to work; moderators here on CF, people working at data centers that process the internet. There are seventh-day churches that live stream their services, but they probably haven't thought about it

Hopefully not too far off topic, but I have wondered historically what Seventh-Day observers did about traveling to meetings as it relates to horses. Did they all walk? (Not trying to judge or criticize, just interested )

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20:10 - New American Standard Bible 1995

but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

www.biblegateway.com

-just one more thought... Is it good to milk a dairy cow on the seventh day? The Israelites probably kept calves around just for that reason. But in modern farming?

I don't mind traditions keeping values from the 4th commandment but let's call a spade a spade here, modern living seems incompatible with Sabbath law logic unless we make a bunch of provisions which then begs the question what so we really keep? The Sabbath law or a tradition of Sabbath law?

 

[FredVB]

I see the design from the start, which includes this, is of the higher will of God, that which is shown earlier in the Bible is, while concessions were made for fallen humanity, even those who become God's people, for the stubborn ways when there is change from what is earliest, God doesn't change, and it includes ways for us to eat, and how to live on the land, and there was nothing ever said for change to stewardship we were to have to this earth.

Yes

Bible Gateway passage: Ecclesiastes 7:29 - New American Standard Bible 1995

Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices.”

www.biblegateway.com

When it comes to helping the disabled widow, is that a good thing to do in God's first plan, or a concession?

It is good to do good on the day God said is the Sabbath and is holy. But what is good? Is it good to leave work to be done on Sabbath? This is not what Sabbath is for. For the people observing Sabbath they were told of what is understood to be preparation day for it. Work that might be done on Sabbath, that Sabbath could be left without work that would be left for it, could be done another day. Helping someone like a disabled woman is good, but if what can be done could be done on another day, that would be better for observing Sabbath. Doing something for Sabbath even with significant effort that could be called work could only be good if among other things it is needed just that day and cannot be another day, and there would be an urgency. Then it is still good to do that, but in any case, nothing would be done during these things done on Sabbath that would be earning money one is paid, if those are good still. One would not require others to work as far as one could help that, including any animals.

Driving can be problematic. To drive on the Sabbath doesn't just risk running out of fuel but it creates a demand for all workforce services related to cars for that day that may be all counted as unnecessary.

For example if there were fewer cars on the road during the Sabbath there would be fewer accidence and fewer roadside services, fewer speeding tickets given out by police and fewer cars needing to refuel... Not to mention few people that need to refuel or go to rest stops. All of these are demand based services, without the demand the need for the service is reduced and sometimes may not be needed at all.

This is a similar problem with electricity when it comes to unnecessary use. Or using a phones or the internet. All of these things create a demand for the day we use it on, and the more people use it, the more a workforce is needed to maintain it.

We may say it's essential services and it's running if we use it or not. Western Christians can be enabled with a lot of power if all our values are aligned. We are a large number in the west. Banned together if we all of a sudden stop driving, stop using the internet or stop using electricity on the sabbath this will greatly reduce demand on this day and you can bet people will take notice.

It seems however no one wants to take it that far and throw in a lot of exceptions. The law of Sabbath is broadly don't work and don't cause others to work. We're good at the first part, but as long as we don't see it we don't care about the last part.

We are not in the same circumstance as Israel in the Bible, the people who all had corporate observance of Sabbath together. If we are in Mystery Babylon instead, as we are, many of us are alone there who would observe Sabbath. We do not belong in Mystery Babylon, it would be really better to get out as soon as we can, but with other believers who would, too. But here we can observe Sabbath for ourselves even while not with others there to observe it with, though that would be better. We individually can still prepare, and do what we can for resting from work and focusing on God and the godly things we might do then on Sabbath for us.

And about the demand we have, which is still with others such that the demand continues anyway, I see that clearly relates to issues I and others who are vegan see. We each see demands that are objectionable, that though they continue, we would not still be a part of, and it would just be with enough who choose to not be apart of demands that the demands would diminish.

If many of us left from Mystery Babylon to become independent from involvement in any way with it still, we could really break from the demands. And there is a whole lot of demands, it is unfathomable.

 

[Leaf473]

It is good to do good on the day God said is the Sabbath and is holy. But what is good? Is it good to leave work to be done on Sabbath? This is not what Sabbath is for. For the people observing Sabbath they were told of what is understood to be preparation day for it. Work that might be done on Sabbath, that Sabbath could be left without work that would be left for it, could be done another day. Helping someone like a disabled woman is good, but if what can be done could be done on another day, that would be better for observing Sabbath. Doing something for Sabbath even with significant effort that could be called work could only be good if among other things it is needed just that day and cannot be another day, and there would be an urgency. Then it is still good to do that, but in any case, nothing would be done during these things done on Sabbath that would be earning money one is paid, if those are good still. One would not require others to work as far as one could help that, including any animals.



We are not in the same circumstance as Israel in the Bible, the people who all had corporate observance of Sabbath together. If we are in Mystery Babylon instead, as we are, many of us are alone there who would observe Sabbath. We do not belong in Mystery Babylon, it would be really better to get out as soon as we can, but with other believers who would, too. But here we can observe Sabbath for ourselves even while not with others there to observe it with, though that would be better. We individually can still prepare, and do what we can for resting from work and focusing on God and the godly things we might do then on Sabbath for us.

And about the demand we have, which is still with others such that the demand continues anyway, I see that clearly relates to issues I and others who are vegan see. We each see demands that are objectionable, that though they continue, we would not still be a part of, and it would just be with enough who choose to not be apart of demands that the demands would diminish.

If many of us left from Mystery Babylon to become independent from involvement in any way with it still, we could really break from the demands. And there is a whole lot of demands, it is unfathomable.

Well, two general ways of looking at it:

When Jesus says it's lawful to do good on the Sabbath, does he mean only if it can't be done on another day? That is, it's okay to do stuff that's an emergency? Or is he saying whatever is good is okay on the Sabbath?

The second way is whether all work is prohibited on the Sabbath, or just our work. That's where the part about the priests comes in, they work on the Sabbath, but it's God's work, so it's okay. So a different way of looking at the OP is to say, "Is mowing a disabled person's lawn God's work or our work? Because we have six days to do our work, on the seventh day we do God's work.

 

[DamianWarS]

It is good to do good on the day God said is the Sabbath and is holy. But what is good? Is it good to leave work to be done on Sabbath? This is not what Sabbath is for. For the people observing Sabbath they were told of what is understood to be preparation day for it. Work that might be done on Sabbath, that Sabbath could be left without work that would be left for it, could be done another day. Helping someone like a disabled woman is good, but if what can be done could be done on another day, that would be better for observing Sabbath. Doing something for Sabbath even with significant effort that could be called work could only be good if among other things it is needed just that day and cannot be another day, and there would be an urgency. Then it is still good to do that, but in any case, nothing would be done during these things done on Sabbath that would be earning money one is paid, if those are good still. One would not require others to work as far as one could help that, including any animals.

You are lost in the physical details. Do you think Christ really meant save physical sheep in physical pits? Christ asks are not people more valuable than sheep? I will go further, us not the spiritual condition more urgent than the physical?

To rescue a sheep in a pit might require climbing in and out of the pit, it might have a lot of pushing/pulling and lifting/carrying it may even require ropes. All of which may exert a lot of engery and we don't stop until the task is done. There is no rest until that sheep is rescued and because the act is good then it is lawful

When we look at sheep as a spiritual charge then I'm sure it doesn't take long to find many stuck in pits they can't get out of who may be hostile to the gospel. To gain access to these peoples lives we need to shower them with goodness and may there be no limit until the work is done.

When we look back to creation God does not cease work because he is tired, he ceases because he is finished which is an important point. So when we rest surrounded by sheep trapped in pits it's premature because the work is not done. I'm less interested in what the goodness is, and more interested in how it changes someone's life.

We are not in the same circumstance as Israel in the Bible, the people who all had corporate observance of Sabbath together. If we are in Mystery Babylon instead, as we are, many of us are alone there who would observe Sabbath. We do not belong in Mystery Babylon, it would be really better to get out as soon as we can, but with other believers who would, too. But here we can observe Sabbath for ourselves even while not with others there to observe it with, though that would be better. We individually can still prepare, and do what we can for resting from work and focusing on God and the godly things we might do then on Sabbath for us.

And about the demand we have, which is still with others such that the demand continues anyway, I see that clearly relates to issues I and others who are vegan see. We each see demands that are objectionable, that though they continue, we would not still be a part of, and it would just be with enough who choose to not be apart of demands that the demands would diminish.

If many of us left from Mystery Babylon to become independent from involvement in any way with it still, we could really break from the demands. And there is a whole lot of demands, it is unfathomable.

Christians have a lot more collective power then many think. The 4th commandment is as much about not working as an individual as it is not causing others to work, even animals. This is a powerful salvation metaphor since animals have no authority to take rest they must be given it. We too have no authority to take salvation, and just like the rest, salvation needs to be given to us. If Sabbath values are important then we should stop feeding non-essential demands that require a workfore. If it is too overwhelming then the Sabbath is unkeepable (hint, that's sort of the point)

 

[FredVB]

Well, two general ways of looking at it:

When Jesus says it's lawful to do good on the Sabbath, does he mean only if it can't be done on another day? That is, it's okay to do stuff that's an emergency? Or is he saying whatever is good is okay on the Sabbath?

The second way is whether all work is prohibited on the Sabbath, or just our work. That's where the part about the priests comes in, they work on the Sabbath, but it's God's work, so it's okay. So a different way of looking at the OP is to say, "Is mowing a disabled person's lawn God's work or our work? Because we have six days to do our work, on the seventh day we do God's work.

We can all look at in different ways, I was answering the question as to how I see it, knowing still there are differences from how others see it. It was a question.

There is good work, which is godly, that can be done on Sabbath. But occupational work, which is what any are paid for, is not that. You being paid for it is not work for God. So even mowing on someone's property to be paid for it is excluded. And why do that for Sabbath, anyway? It is not one of the things to be done every day.

But, importantly, not having others required to work on Sabbath is not my opinion, the Bible is clear on that for the day God says is holy, even that animals should not be made to work then. God does not exclude animals from the care from God.

You are lost in the physical details. Do you think Christ really meant save physical sheep in physical pits? Christ asks are not people more valuable than sheep? I will go further, us not the spiritual condition more urgent than the physical?

To rescue a sheep in a pit might require climbing in and out of the pit, it might have a lot of pushing/pulling and lifting/carrying it may even require ropes. All of which may exert a lot of engery and we don't stop until the task is done. There is no rest until that sheep is rescued and because the act is good then it is lawful

When we look at sheep as a spiritual charge then I'm sure it doesn't take long to find many stuck in pits they can't get out of who may be hostile to the gospel. To gain access to these peoples lives we need to shower them with goodness and may there be no limit until the work is done.

When we look back to creation God does not cease work because he is tired, he ceases because he is finished which is an important point. So when we rest surrounded by sheep trapped in pits it's premature because the work is not done. I'm less interested in what the goodness is, and more interested in how it changes someone's life.


Christians have a lot more collective power then many think. The 4th commandment is as much about not working as an individual as it is not causing others to work, even animals. This is a powerful salvation metaphor since animals have no authority to take rest they must be given it. We too have no authority to take salvation, and just like the rest, salvation needs to be given to us. If Sabbath values are important then we should stop feeding non-essential demands that require a workfore. If it is too overwhelming then the Sabbath is unkeepable (hint, that's sort of the point)

You completely miss that God does care for animals, God is Creator of all.

Don't make it about legalism. I am not doing that. I do say we can observe what we can for that. God is helpful, not a harsh taskmaster. Again, the day is holy, just as it is said in the Bible.

 

[Leaf473]

We can all look at in different ways, I was answering the question as to how I see it, knowing still there are differences from how others see it. It was a question.

Good to hear from you again

There is good work, which is godly, that can be done on Sabbath. But occupational work, which is what any are paid for, is not that. You being paid for it is not work for God. So even mowing on someone's property to be paid for it is excluded. And why do that for Sabbath, anyway? It is not one of the things to be done every day.

I was assuming that the OP was referring to mowing the lawn as an act of charity. Assuming it is done for free, as a gift, is it good in itself?

But, importantly, not having others required to work on Sabbath is not my opinion, the Bible is clear on that for the day God says is holy, even that animals should not be made to work then. God does not exclude animals from the care from God.

This is just something I'm curious about, and I haven't found a solid answer.

Before there were cars, how did people get to church? Were seventh day churches within walking distance?

 

[DamianWarS]

You completely miss that God does care for animals, God is Creator of all.

Don't make it about legalism. I am not doing that. I do say we can observe what we can for that. God is helpful, not a harsh taskmaster. Again, the day is holy, just as it is said in the Bible.

I'm exposing the logic of the legalism to show the absurd levels it would go to but I don't subscribe to it. The 7th day is a typology of the product of completed work and the antithhesis to the darkness and chaos before day 1. Christ has a work in our lives that when complete will usher in that 7th day and through Christ, like the 7th day we can be called holy. The 7th day itself has no commandment, the commandment is inside the mosaic covenant, it in fact is the sign of the mosaic covenant. This commandment points to Christ and Christ has come so we no longer need to look to the 4th commandment to obtain this rest as we can get it through Christ which is the deeper meaning of the 7th day.

 

[DamianWarS]

But, importantly, not having others required to work on Sabbath is not my opinion, the Bible is clear on that for the day God says is holy, even that animals should not be made to work then. God does not exclude animals from the care from God.

Indeed a powerful salvation metaphor. Animals (and servants) have no authority to rest and they must yeild to their master. Only when the master gives them rest can they take it. That's a mirror of salvation.

 

[FredVB]

Good to hear from you again

I was assuming that the OP was referring to mowing the lawn as an act of charity. Assuming it is done for free, as a gift, is it good in itself?


This is just something I'm curious about, and I haven't found a solid answer.

Before there were cars, how did people get to church? Were seventh day churches within walking distance?

I have visited a seventh day church and I was then walking to it. Good that is done I am sure draws attention to God, it would have to.

I'm exposing the logic of the legalism to show the absurd levels it would go to but I don't subscribe to it. The 7th day is a typology of the product of completed work and the antithhesis to the darkness and chaos before day 1. Christ has a work in our lives that when complete will usher in that 7th day and through Christ, like the 7th day we can be called holy. The 7th day itself has no commandment, the commandment is inside the mosaic covenant, it in fact is the sign of the mosaic covenant. This commandment points to Christ and Christ has come so we no longer need to look to the 4th commandment to obtain this rest as we can get it through Christ which is the deeper meaning of the 7th day.

Why would the eternal presence of God be chaos and darkness? That would only be the original condition of the creation.

At the end of the days of creation God blessed the seventh day and said it was holy. Every seventh day is in memory of that. Legalism is not necessarily involved. Just remember to do good, not going to work or more importantly make others work with your demand, and draw to God further communicating for others to do so. The law from God is not done, Jesus is the one who is the effective priesthood, sacrifice, and way for us to be clean as needed before God.

Indeed a powerful salvation metaphor. Animals (and servants) have no authority to rest and they must yeild to their master. Only when the master gives them rest can they take it. That's a mirror of salvation.

Beyond the metaphors, God cares for all, including animals. We should not require others to work then. You could be violating others rights. God meant rest for us all.

 

[Leaf473]

I have visited a seventh day church and I was then walking to it. Good that is done I am sure draws attention to God, it would have to.

I'd love to live without a car, but it isn't practical currently.

The other people at the seventh day church, where they mostly walking or driving?