Is it Ever Okay to Kill

[revrobor]

The commandment correctly interpreted says "you shall not murder." A soldier or police officer who takes a life in the line of duty is not murdering. Neither is a person protecting himself or his family.

 

[Jonathan95]

The commandment correctly interpreted says "you shall not murder." A soldier or police officer who takes a life in the line of duty id not murdering. Neither is a person protecting himself or his family.

It's still not okay, it goes against New Testament. Christians aren't to be in the army, neither should they be cops if they kill people.

 

[revrobor]

It's still not okay, it goes against New Testament. Christians aren't to be in the army, neither should they be cops if they kill people.

There is no Scripture prohibiting such killing.

 

[Jonathan95]

There is no Scripture prohibiting such killing.

Jesus rebuked someone here:

"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Matt 26:52

So, that prohibits the use of guns and such to hurt others.

"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." Matt 5:9

"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matt 5:39).

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" Matt 5:44

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matt 7:12

 

[revrobor]

Sorry my young Brother you are mistaken. Look again and you will find verses that instruct men to carry swords (Lk. 22:36 for example). Why would Jesus instruct men to carry swords? I'm sure He didn't mean for them to shave with them.

 

[Jonathan95]

Sorry my young Brother you are mistaken. Look again and you will find verses that instruct men to carry swords (Lk. 22:36 for example). Why would Jesus instruct men to carry swords? I'm sure He didn't mean for them to shave with them.

Did you look at Matt 26:52, what did Jesus say there? Also, our struggle is not against flesh and blood (Eph 6:12). We don't need to hurt people, because we can use prayer. I know a woman who was confronted by a rapist with eyes looking like he's demon possessed. He had a knife, and had killed/raped other women. Well she used the name of Jesus, and the man looked at his knife, dropped it and ran away.

 

[revrobor]

Repeating yourself will not make it true. And some of the verses you quoted have nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

 

[seeking Christ]

Well, the whole stuff in the sermon on the mount that's already been quoted to you seems to rule out self-defence.

It doesn't even address it. Jesus wasn't teaching people how to travel safely on the road to Jericho. and you are speaking as if every instance of human caused suffering were due to being persecuted for the cause of Christ, which is quite distinct from being a victim of crime.

 

[seeking Christ]

Jesus rebuked someone here:

"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Matt 26:52

So, that prohibits the use of guns and such to hurt others.

You might call that a false equivalency. It would also be true that you're ignoring other Scriptures in order to arrive at your point! At least in my Country, Christians are not prohibited from taking part in government.

You may have a conviction not to serve in the military or as a cop. I certainly never could, and I've never even touched a gun. Neither you nor I have the right to inflict that conviction upon anyone else.

 

[apache1]

"John can't rob me because I'm packing heat, so he'll rob Jim who doesn't instead" is exactly that.

Ok, hotshot, if watching your wife or daughter raped or beaten to death and you theoretically could stop it but don't is your conviction, by all means live (or die with) your conviction, but don't try to put some lame pseudo-guilt trip on the rest of us that don't agree with that and don't want harm to come to us or our loved ones. ENOUGH SAID!!

 

[apache1]

ote=ebia;62184491]He measures up against your standard. The question is whether that's the Christian virtue.[/quote]
More smug superior-sounding pseudo-holier-than-thou diatribe. I make absolutely no bones whatsoever about the way I feel, if I prickle your haughty sensibilities, nothing to me.

 

[apache1]

It's still not okay, it goes against New Testament. Christians aren't to be in the army, neither should they be cops if they kill people.

That's not for your or your conscience to decide what someone else or their conscience thinks.

 

[Jonathan95]

Ok, hotshot, if watching your wife or daughter raped or beaten to death and you theoretically could stop it but don't is your conviction, by all means live (or die with) your conviction, but don't try to put some lame pseudo-guilt trip on the rest of us that don't agree with that and don't want harm to come to us or our loved ones. ENOUGH SAID!!

We don't need to kill people, and not always hurt them, but we can use the mighty weapon of prayer/the name of Jesus which is the name above all names. I gave an example, of a woman I know.

 

[apache1]

We don't need to kill people, and not always hurt them, but we can use the mighty weapon of prayer/the name of Jesus which is the name above all names. I gave an example, of a woman I know.

That's perfectly fine (and I have personally heard of things like that near where I live), but there have also been plenty of people that genuinely prayed when life in danger that lost it, too., so I don't see anything wrong with someone defending themselves, either with prayer and demon-rebuking, or gun, knife, bare hands, kick, nunchacku (numchucks), baseball bat, whatever. No, I don't feel the least bit guilty writing this. Live and let live, follow golden rule, fight or resist only as last resort, but if have to, then by all means hold nothing back (the main reason I'm alive and healthy now, and a reason my family did not come to harm some years back).

 

[apache1]

Well, the whole stuff in the sermon on the mount that's already been quoted to you seems to rule out self-defence. But beyond that, given that Christianity is essentially about being selfless, I'm not entirely sure that defending oneself can really be said to sit well with that. I'm not even talking about killing in self-defence (which raises all sorts of ethical issues of its own - if taking a life is an act of evil, can it suddenly become an act of good if it's done in "self-defence"? If so, why and how?), but just self-defence in general. As Christians (I realise this isn't a Christians-only section of the forum, but I'm writing from a Christian perspective), we're called to take up our cross and follow Jesus, and that path involves suffering. As long as we're faithful to Jesus, should we do things to prevent ourselves from suffering at the hands of others, physically or otherwise? Human instinct says "yes," but that seems to be a case of human instinct not squaring with Jesus's expectations of us.

Self-preservation is an instinct within us since the time of creation, and I'm sure it did not originate with Lucifer. Yes, live and let live, follow the golden rule, defend yourself and resist only as a last resort, but by cracky if you have to defend yourself, do it BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY! I certainly don't feel any guilt or prickled conscience by that statement.

 

[apache1]

You're still thinking in the micro picture.

But even there by your own scenario you haven't solved a problem, just made it someone else's problem: very Christian of you.

Talk about micro picture. You seem to stuck on the extreme rigid "no resistance whatsoever" mode regardless of danger or harm to oneself or someone dear to them. I'm not saddled with that rigidness, thank you.

 

[apache1]

Well, to lighten the mood of this, think of some good beach and warm weather songs by artists who love the ocean and/or warm weather -lessen the aggression)....1) Songs by Jimmy Buffett. Yes, I know lots of lyrics about drinking and messing around, but very laid-back tropical sound. 2) Zac Brown. Especially "Knee Deep" (who he sings with Jimmy) - only worry in the world is the tide gonna reach my chair. 3) Jack Johnson - laid back surfer vibe (certainly more West Coast vibe than Zac Brown or Jimmy). 4) I always liked that song "Moonlight Feels Right" by Starbuck (love that marimba solo midway through song) 5) Glen Campbell - "Southern Nights". 6) Seals and Crofts, especially"Summer Breeze, makes me feel fine).

 

[Max S Cherry]

He was not at all a bullied doormat! He spoke before the rulers who were to judge Him, and they could find no fault.

Have you missed the element of the Gospel that is Him laying down His life willingly?

Please do not misunderstand my meaning. Yes, He laid down His perfect life willingly for us. You and I are in complete agreement. All I meant by Him being a "bullied doormat" is that He was mistreated, especially considering His divine and perfect nature. I will even add that He was a "bullied doormat" willingly, and I believe we should be just as willing.

 

[Max S Cherry]

Correct! You have won the thread. We can see the Church struggle with this, throughout history. No easy answers here

You must have missed the point of the thread. It cannot be won by one of any position.

 

[Max S Cherry]

How do we "know" Pluto has an orbital time span of 248 earth years when we only discovered it 83 years ago? no one has ever witnessed a complete orbit let alone timed it.

I'll tell you how we "know", we use scientific method.

Certainty is too much to ask, and I feel it would be inappropriate to call the estimates that we derive from our dating techniques as just guesses. The estimates are about as close to certainty as we will probably ever get.

We do not know the orbital time of Pluto, at least not that I am aware of, but we make guesses as to the time span using what we think or what we do know, if there is anything. Certainty is a lot to ask, of that we agree, but I do not think that it is too much to ask. I try to avoid labeling things as facts without certainty, but I do not require facts in order to live. I am perfectly happy living by guesses, which seem to be correct, until a better guess comes along.

Facts are illusive, but that does not mean that they are unobtainable. I suggest that we reserve the word "fact" for those things that we do "know."