Is it Ever Okay to Kill

[QueSi]

It's also possible that those who are hiding from a gunman on a rampage are praying that God will bring them someone who will put an end to the perp's killing spree before anyone else gets hurt, and choosing to believe that He will.

It works both ways.

I do not believe God would direct anyone to kill.

 

[Sectio Aureo]

We do not know the orbital time of Pluto, at least not that I am aware of, but we make guesses as to the time span using what we think or what we do know, if there is anything.

You are in denial.

Certainty is a lot to ask, of that we agree, but I do not think that it is too much to ask.

Certainty is too much to ask in cases where certainty is virtually impossible.

I try to avoid labeling things as facts without certainty, but I do not require facts in order to live.

The more facts you possess, the more superior your decisions will be in future, and the greater your chance of survival. The more lies you believe, the easier you will be fooled.

I am perfectly happy living by guesses
which seem to be correct, until a better guess comes along.

Really, then why deny that the scientific estimates that Earth is 4.5 billion years old, bugs have existed for hundreds of millions years before man, and pluto has an orbital time span 248 years? These estimates are superior to guesses, the margin of error in these estimates is small enough to be negligible.

Facts are illusive, but that does not mean that they are unobtainable. I suggest that we reserve the word "fact" for those things that we do "know."

You accept Darwins theory of evolution yet you deny some of the proven supporting pieces of evidence, modern technical evidence like Argon dating and DNA.

You seem to be picking and choosing facts in a haphazard or spontaneous manner, I get the impression you are denying the facts because they do not suit your worldview.

 

[seeking Christ]

Through God all things are possible, if you believe.

God has sent deliverer's, repeatedly. Most often these were bloody men.

 

[ziggy29]

I do not believe God would direct anyone to kill.

You are the one who said "kill" here, not me. I merely said "put an end to it." Not all perps were stopped by being killed. That said, there's also something to be said for the old saying, "all that's necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

 

[QueSi]

God has sent deliverer's, repeatedly. Most often these were bloody men.

I am a follower of Jesus and have no interest in the old testament. He gave me all the instruction I need for my life.

 

[QueSi]

You are the one who said "kill" here, not me. I merely said "put an end to it." Not all perps were stopped by being killed. That said, there's also something to be said for the old saying, "all that's necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

As I said originally, I would approach the man and talk to him to get him to stop, I never said I would do nothing.

 

[Bethesda]

I do not believe God would direct anyone to kill.

They might be praying for some boys or girls in blue (who may or may not be Christians) getting there quickly enough and incapacitating the gunmen (or as in the case of Breivik, as soon as the police arrived he stopped as he wanted his Mein Kampf moment)

 

[Bethesda]

You might call that a false equivalency. It would also be true that you're ignoring other Scriptures in order to arrive at your point! At least in my Country, Christians are not prohibited from taking part in government.

You may have a conviction not to serve in the military or as a cop. I certainly never could, and I've never even touched a gun. Neither you nor I have the right to inflict that conviction upon anyone else.

Point well made - if someone does not want to do those jobs then they shouldn't. To say that a Christian shouldn't do them is someone's opinion.

 

[Bethesda]

neither should they be cops if they kill people.

Well since no-one joins the police with the intention of killing anyone then your latter point only makes sense is what you really mean is Christians should be police officers period. But then do you call the police if something is happening to your family or your neighbours - do you give evidence in court?

 

[Carmella Prochaska]

I think killing is only acceptable as the death penalty for murderers. That's the only time I think it is acceptable to take a human life. A life for a life. It's unacceptable for any other case.

If anyone takes a human life, that person’s life will also be taken by human hands. For God made human beings in his own image. (Genesis 9:6)

 

[Bethesda]

That's precisely part of the point. I can't completely fix a broken system, though a prefer a less broken one than a more broken one. After 10 years in Australia I'm still very uncomfortable with police carrying guns as a matter of course. I would hate to live in the US.

I can choose my choices only within the context I'm given.

Thats of course fair enough and your choice. I am the most non violent person in my type of work you can find, but I still have the training etc as a part of the job - I'm happy that I try to do my job fairly and recognising that we are all sinners who need redemption. If someone wants to tell me that in their opinion as a Christian, they think I shouldn't be doing this kind of work then fair enough but would they rather have Christians doing it or only 'heathens'. My point about following through the logic of such a position to refusing to engage with the criminal justice system at all is not I think a straw man. If you call the police then you don't know if they will arrest the offender, beat him, speak to him and let him go or what. Similarly if you sit on a jury you are holding (as a barrister said at a trial I was at) a persons life in your hands - whatever people may think, prisons are horrible hurting places where nasty things happen. If someone is not prepared to think about that, then they shouldn't sit on a jury. Personally if there was the death penalty in this country for certain types of crime, then I would not work in those areas as I do not want to be responsible for putting someone on the end of rope by diligently collecting the evidence etc. Subjective, inconsistent? - maybe - but we are all human not computers

 

[Hawisher]

The situation under discussion was clear: a person intent on mowing down an innocent crowd, with gunfire. You're going to try reasoning with him?

Nope. I might try showing him love, though. Reason's long gone, at that point. Humanity isn't.

 

[Illuminaughty]

People will be doing humanity a great favor if they can ever develop non lethal weapons that are at least in the same general arena of effectiveness as handguns the police are currently using. In the future we not be seeing as many police inflicted causalities if we do the proper research and funding.

 

[Illuminaughty]

Shotgun tazer
Shotgun TASER International Less Lethal Device - YouTube


We already have a way to disperse crowds using microwaves

The Ray Gun In Action (CBS News) - YouTube

 

[seeking Christ]

People will be doing humanity a great favor if they can ever develop non lethal weapons that are at least in the same general arena of effectiveness as handguns are currently for police to use. In the future we not be seeing as many police inflicted causalities if we do the proper research and funding.

The taser is here already. How many have died from it? And while it has been suggested for use in schools to stop mass shootings, I doubt its a good application for that.

 

[Illuminaughty]

The taser is here already. How many have died from it?

The chances of survival after being tazed are a lot higher than surviving a gunshot wound. That's why people volunteer to be tazed all the time but few people have a cop blast them in the chest with a 9mm for demonstration.

And while it has been suggested for use in schools to stop mass shootings, I doubt its a good application for that.

That's why I think there is still work to be done before less than lethal weapons can approach the effectiveness of a standard police handgun or rifle. There has been a lot of growth in the field and I think it's only a matter of time before we come across real game changers though. I think it's worth researching. The military has been sinking a lot of money into less than lethal research as well. Sonic weapons, microwave, etc. Some of the LTL I've seen on the program Future Weapon are amazing.

 

[seeking Christ]

The chances of survival after being tazed are a lot higher than surviving a gunshot wound.

Depends on where you're shot

But seriously, didn't somebody die from being tazed not too long ago?

Apparently Israel uses "sonic grenades". Any idea what they are?

 

[Illuminaughty]

But seriously, didn't somebody die from being tazed not too long ago?

I've heard that it can be too much for people with bad heart conditions sometimes.

Apparently Israel uses "sonic grenades". Any idea what they are?

I'm not sure but they might be like the flashbang grenades our police and military uses. They are used to temporarily stun people with the sound and blind them with the bright flash.

Flashbang - YouTube

 

[keith99]

Well since no-one joins the police with the intention of killing anyone then your latter point only makes sense is what you really mean is Christians should be police officers period. But then do you call the police if something is happening to your family or your neighbours - do you give evidence in court?

C.S. Lewis pointed out that one of the very few people Christ Praised was a Centurian, a soldier. Someone whose job it is to kill.

Somehow people seem to forget this. And when asked by those with potentialy violent jobs Christ DID NOT say they needed to quit their profession, but rather to do it justly.

But then it seems some 'christians' know better than their Christ.

 

[Bethesda]

C.S. Lewis pointed out that one of the very few people Christ Praised was a Centurian, a soldier. Someone whose job it is to kill.

Somehow people seem to forget this. And when asked by those with potentialy violent jobs Christ DID NOT say they needed to quit their profession, but rather to do it justly.

But then it seems some 'christians' know better than their Christ.

One of the points often made is that all the early Christians were pacifists and required anyone who became a Christian who was Roman soldier or magistrate to give it up. That to me is because at that time service in such required obeisance to the Roman gods (and the Roman authorities were effectively oppressing Christians) more so that anything particularly to do with pacifism - the Roman Magistrates though they presumably had severe powers of punishment were not per se there to kill people. If the logic of the early church did it so should we is taken that way, then no Christian should be a Judge or Prosecutor - even though today in the UK anyway neither of these is involved at all in any application of lethal force since we have abolished the death sentence. Today if a Christian is in the police he/she is not oppressing anyone (well maybe criminals - but within the confines of the law!) Once Constantine converted, there were Christians in the army (since the requirement to serve the Roman gods was abolished). In fact of course, as you mention 2 of the notable non Jewish early believers were soldiers even in the era of more oppression - Paul was of course invited to go to a Roman centurion/officers house too and again no mention that he was told to leave the army)