Is it by works or by faith?

[Alithis]

I realize some believe that.

I di not follow what some believe ..but Jesus .and he has said it is not so.

To say otherwise is to charge him with lying.
That must be immediatly repented of.

 

[jerry kelso]

I'm still struggling between the correct doctrine then. There are so many answers to this question. But I just remembered something from my Bible class workbook. It went something along these lines: " When we come into a relationship with the Father, he adopts us into the family of God, becoming child of God. We may disobey our Father, we may even walk away from Him, but he is still our Father. He is still our Father, even if we walk away, since he adopted us from the world. We don't make the decision to leave God's family, that's God's choice to kick us out, and he said that He would never forsake us. We are sealed with His Spirit, Him, and only Him can remove that seal, and he promised that he would NEVER leave us."

gabe7587,

1. Your Bible class workbook is based on the TULIP which is Calvinism. The overall basis is all based on the total sovereignty of God to the extreme and deletes cooperation of the believer.
If there is no free will choice then we are robots and it is not real love.
The scriptures are true if one stays in the state of being a Christian who is pursuing God.
God looks at the heart and a heart towards him will ask for forgiveness for known sin in their life. James 2:1-2 Jesus is our advocate.
God will always chasten us but we still have free will to not choose his chastening.
God will do everything to keep us serving him and will never leave or forsake one who is pursuing him and trusting him. We are to be perfect in love but we are not always perfect in knowledge.

2. Galatians 1:6 and James 5:19-20 show backsliding can go to the point of losing salvation but can be forgiven.
One must understand the laws of degeneration on the road to apostasy.

3. Roman's 6:16 shows that one is slave to whoever they yield to which is talking to Christians.
The changing of masters is when Christians change from serving God to serving Satan again.
This should not be confused with Christians who do imperfect things but ask forgiveness and continue with a heart of God like King David.

4. God has provided us with everything in his finished work of Christ which is why the foolishness of God is wiser than men and the weakness of God stronger than men 1 Corinthians 1:25.
He has given us everything to overcome Romans 8:37; 1 Corinthians 10:13. At the same time Christians have to put legs to faith for the just shall live by faith Habakkuk 2:4.
Hebrews 11:6 says without faith it is impossible to please God; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
If God did everything for us in his total sovereignty Calvinist context, there wouldn't be no reason to believe or diligently seek him because he would make us do it automatically and there would be no free will cooperation by man.

5. All scriptures have to be understood in proper context and reconciled together correctly as well concerning historical passages, dispensation periods, not what a few scriptures appear to be saying and may not mean what it appears.

6. The conclusion is that Unconditional Eternal Security is not true and Conditional Eternal Security.
The promise to Christians of eternal security is only unconditional to those who trust and obey and those who stay faithful of their free will cooperation in the power of God.

7. One more thing, Ezekiel 18 shows that Israel is not saved because they are God's chosen people if they turn their back on God. There is no unconditional election then or now.
There righteousness would never be remembered anymore.
It is true today as well because God is no respect of persons. Jerry kelso

 

[Rajni]

I di not follow what some believe ..but Jesus .and he has said it is not so.

To say otherwise is to charge him with lying.
That must be immediatly repented of.

Again, I realize that some believe that.
Thank you for your input.

 

[TheSeabass]

The reason why a person shouldn't walk away is because of the severe discipline they would endure. We shouldn't take lightly of the Lords discipline.

Walking away from God makes one a reprobate>>lost.

No one can walk away from God yet still be walking in the light, 1 John 1:7.

 

[Rajni]

Walking away from God makes one a reprobate>>lost.

Yet wasn't it God's mission to seek and save the lost?

 

[TheSeabass]

Yet wasn't it God's mission to seek and save the lost?

Christ's mission in coming to earth.

 

[Rajni]

Christ's mission in coming to earth.

Yes, that's another way to put it.

 

[Rescued One]

Nice peice..but in every instant you presented only half the picture.

Grace is what Jesus has done for us and made available to us who do not deserve it nor can earn it.
Faith is what we Do in response to truley believing him.

For by grace are you saved THROUGH faith.

Faith comes from God, not man.

It is never grace alone it us never faith alone.
One can know of his grace yet remain disobedient to him ..a disobedient person is one who does not begin to Act on the grace of God. The first act of obedience is to repent from sinning ，get baptised and recieve the Holy Ghost..then go on to follow him living in obedience to the holy spirit sccording to the word of God.

Knowing something in your head, i.e. the words of the Bible, is not faith. Faith is given through God's regeneration (change of heart and indwelling of His Spirit). Without His Spirit a person doesn't understand spiritual things.

Such a person who professes to believe but does not Do the words instructions will not be saved.he is decieved Jesus said.

Without regeneration, there is no desire for repentance. That desire has to come from God. The person whose heart has been changed, is a new creature who loves Jesus. If a person doesn't love Jesus, he won't obey Jesus.


A hearer of the word but not a doer.

You quote verses like “by the grace of God i am what i am...“
But what is he who writes it? A man who goes to a building once a week then heads off to work on monday to be like his workmates?hang out with the boys ，have a beer at a bbq..praise his sports team and back to his sunday club on sunday??NO!

You are describing a non-Christian.

NO The writer is A man given to obedience 7 days a week laying down his emtire life in obedience to the great comissiom
A man who is living a life seperated from sin ，preaching the gospel to all people in every situation he comes to whether in times of plenty or severe need，whether comforted or having the skin flogged from his back..whether free or in chains..
The writer is not one who piously says oh dont worry its a grace. But rather one who..,because he knows it is all grace，lays down his life because he truly believes in the grace of God.
He does not trample it underfoot as if it is worthless but dies daily to the flesh that he might walk worthy of such precious grace bestowed upon him.

By grace indeed we Are saved...THROUGH FAITH ...
Unto good works which he has for ordained..that we should walk in them.
...they are love.

I haven't disagreed with Ephesians 2.

Many who say..it is ONLY grace..have not yet repented nor known that grace. For if they truley have..they will be laying down thier lives to maintain that work of grace within them.

We are saved by God's grace not by works of righteous which we have done.

Titus 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 5
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Why is it necessary for God to change our hearts?

Genesis 8
21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Jeremiah 17
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[Rescued One]

What he Gives..is the oppurtunity to repent.this is graciously given.
If it were an automatic occurance there would be no sinners on the earth.for all would have repented.
Evidence therefore displays it is not so.

Repentance is commanded because the oppurtunity to do so has been graciously provided.

Note the warning to those who do not “obey“ the Gospel.

2 Timothy 2
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Romans 9
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[Rescued One]

I'm still struggling between the correct doctrine then. There are so many answers to this question. But I just remembered something from my Bible class workbook. It went something along these lines: " When we come into a relationship with the Father, he adopts us into the family of God, becoming child of God. We may disobey our Father, we may even walk away from Him, but he is still our Father. He is still our Father, even if we walk away, since he adopted us from the world. We don't make the decision to leave God's family, that's God's choice to kick us out, and he said that He would never forsake us. We are sealed with His Spirit, Him, and only Him can remove that seal, and he promised that he would NEVER leave us."

But because we have His Spirit, we WON'T walk away from Him.

 

[Gabe7587]

But because we have His Spirit, we WON'T walk away from Him.

Then where is the free will? Yes we have God's Spirit, but we are sinful humans who may walk away from God. Just like was said above, we are still his children, he still adopted us. Even if we walk away, he is still our Father. He gave us the free will to do that, we do that because of our flesh.

 

[Alithis]

2 Timothy 2
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Romans 9
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

None of anything youvd posted actually changes anything if said ..though youve referred to sanctification in place of faith.
And your right..some of what I have said refers to the unsaved.
And that is a crucial point
Many who say they are saved..do so only with the mouth.
They have not yet obeyed the Gospel
They are not yet saved.
It is by his mercy we are saved.
He went to the cross for us before we knew him .while we were dead in sin.
And he made the way to be saved available to us. He is the door..
It matters nothing if we say we believe that..unless we walk in it.
Because faith is the action we do when we truly believe in what he has done for us.
Without faith It is impossible to please God.
Without grace it is impossible to walk in faith.

Read again about faith.
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks.
Etc...
You Will find over and over that belief is only belief when it is accompanied by the action of obedience this action has a name ..and it's name is a verb.
It is faith.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Calvin and Luther did not have fruits of love as they wrote about persecuting jews....
At least Luther did and Calvin oversaw this persecution among Luther's folowers
This is the root of Osas
As I always hear Calvin quoted as the author of this doctrine

 

[Rescued One]

Then where is the free will? Yes we have God's Spirit, but we are sinful humans who may walk away from God. Just like was said above, we are still his children, he still adopted us. Even if we walk away, he is still our Father. He gave us the free will to do that, we do that because of our flesh.

Are you a free will Baptist or will you let God make His own decisions?

Titus 2
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

People who walk away were never His children in the first place.

 

[Gabe7587]

Are you a free will Baptist or will you let God make His own decisions?

Titus 2
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

People who walk away were never His children in the first place.

God gave us a free will, yes, since we have the Spirit of the Lord we would want to follow his will. But we are not perfect, and we may walk away, whether that be for an hour, a day, or even years.

 

[Rescued One]

None of anything youvd posted actually changes anything if said ..though youve referred to sanctification in place of faith.
And your right..some of what I have said refers to the unsaved.
And that is a crucial point
Many who say they are saved..do so only with the mouth.

Liars tell lies.

They have not yet obeyed the Gospel

Why would a non-Christian obey God?

They are not yet saved.
It is by his mercy we are saved.
He went to the cross for us before we knew him .while we were dead in sin.
And he made the way to be saved available to us. He is the door..
It matters nothing if we say we believe that..unless we walk in it.

We strive to obey Him after He regenerates us.

Because faith is the action we do when we truly believe in what he has done for us.
Without faith It is impossible to please God.

Faith is a gift from God.

Without grace it is impossible to walk in faith.

Read again about faith.

I have more times than I can count.

By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks.
Etc...
You Will find over and over that belief is only belief when it is accompanied by the action of obedience this action has a name ..and it's name is a verb.
It is faith.

But faith is given to us by God resulting in the new birth. I haven't been talking about mere belief. Are you even reading my posts?

Without the Spirit no one belongs to Christ.

 

[Rescued One]

God gave us a free will, yes, since we have the Spirit of the Lord we would want to follow his will. But we are not perfect, and we may walk away, whether that be for an hour, a day, or even years.

We never walk away from Him because He holds us in His hand.

John 10
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

The person who walks away doesn't love Him. He adopts those who truly love Him.

1 John 1
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[Rescued One]

Calvin and Luther did not have fruits of love as they wrote about persecuting jews....
At least Luther did and Calvin oversaw this persecution among Luther's folowers
This is the root of Osas
As I always hear Calvin quoted as the author of this doctrine

We ought to obey God rather than men. One Person was perfect and He is my Savior. Christians love God and other people --- but no doubt struggle with loving followers of demons.

 

[Rescued One]

gabe7587,

1. Your Bible class workbook is based on the TULIP which is Calvinism. The overall basis is all based on the total sovereignty of God to the extreme and deletes cooperation of the believer.
If there is no free will choice then we are robots and it is not real love.
The scriptures are true if one stays in the state of being a Christian who is pursuing God.
God looks at the heart and a heart towards him will ask for forgiveness for known sin in their life. James 2:1-2 Jesus is our advocate.
God will always chasten us but we still have free will to not choose his chastening.
God will do everything to keep us serving him and will never leave or forsake one who is pursuing him and trusting him. We are to be perfect in love but we are not always perfect in knowledge.

2. Galatians 1:6 and James 5:19-20 show backsliding can go to the point of losing salvation but can be forgiven.
One must understand the laws of degeneration on the road to apostasy.

3. Roman's 6:16 shows that one is slave to whoever they yield to which is talking to Christians.
The changing of masters is when Christians change from serving God to serving Satan again.
This should not be confused with Christians who do imperfect things but ask forgiveness and continue with a heart of God like King David.

4. God has provided us with everything in his finished work of Christ which is why the foolishness of God is wiser than men and the weakness of God stronger than men 1 Corinthians 1:25.
He has given us everything to overcome Romans 8:37; 1 Corinthians 10:13. At the same time Christians have to put legs to faith for the just shall live by faith Habakkuk 2:4.
Hebrews 11:6 says without faith it is impossible to please God; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
If God did everything for us in his total sovereignty Calvinist context, there wouldn't be no reason to believe or diligently seek him because he would make us do it automatically and there would be no free will cooperation by man.

5. All scriptures have to be understood in proper context and reconciled together correctly as well concerning historical passages, dispensation periods, not what a few scriptures appear to be saying and may not mean what it appears.

6. The conclusion is that Unconditional Eternal Security is not true and Conditional Eternal Security.
The promise to Christians of eternal security is only unconditional to those who trust and obey and those who stay faithful of their free will cooperation in the power of God.

7. One more thing, Ezekiel 18 shows that Israel is not saved because they are God's chosen people if they turn their back on God. There is no unconditional election then or now.
There righteousness would never be remembered anymore.
It is true today as well because God is no respect of persons. Jerry kelso

You need to read more of his posts because you don't understand what he believes. He believes that he is saved no matter what he does.

Calvin didn't teach that. He taught Perseverance of the Saints.

 

[Rescued One]

None of anything youvd posted actually changes anything if said ..though youve referred to sanctification in place of faith.

Sanctification is ongoing after regeneration. It isn't faith. I've never substituted sanctification for faith.