Is infant baptism unbiblical?

[Gregory95]

And unless we can agree on that our supreme authority is the Bible, which is God's Word, we can't really have a meaningful and true unity. So this is why the visible church is so divided.

thank you for that reply! and i think it would do well for us to keep speaking...from what i quoted we agree 100% however i would point to the Bible in that it tells us we are to follow the doctrine laid out in it (as you agree) and thus how can we allow people to be called what they are not for
2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
1 John 4:1-3
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Galatians 1:6-10
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
1 Timothy 1:3
As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,

2 Peter 2:1-3
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

 

[ViaCrucis]

agreed the Bible says there is one baptism ...praise the truth...Christ said you cannot enter the kingdom of God unless you are born again...Christ said He is the ONLY way....John the baptist said Christ baptizes WITH Holy Spirit ...Christ Himself said Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I would encourage you to set aside everything you have heard and been told about what "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is, and go straight to the source: the Bible.

Look where the Bible itself explicitly says "baptism with the Holy Spirit" or "baptize with the Holy Spirit" or "baptized with the Holy Spirit". Look for these explicit statements, and look at how the Bible itself speaks of this.

I think if you look at what the Bible itself explicitly says, you might be rather surprised. I know I was.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Gregory95]

I would encourage you to set aside everything you have heard and been told about what "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is, and go straight to the source: the Bible

all i got is the Bibles from original greek literal translation - modern printed in china...my family rejects Bible...God was ridiculed daily in the house i was raised..i had a dark life of national socalism before Christ pulled me from the darkness....i hold truth in no earthly doctrine...the most rightuius person is like a filthy rag to God....thats why i need Scripture IN context pertaining to which the Scripture is cited

 

[Gregory95]

I would encourage you to set aside everything you have heard and been told about what "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is, and go straight to the source: the Bible.

Look where the Bible itself explicitly says "baptism with the Holy Spirit" or "baptize with the Holy Spirit" or "baptized with the Holy Spirit". Look for these explicit statements, and look at how the Bible itself speaks of this.

I think if you look at what the Bible itself explicitly says, you might be rather surprised. I know I was.

-CryptoLutheran

it all makes sense till start comparing to what i hear from mainstream...only then did it seem to be confusing...

 

[ViaCrucis]

all i got is the Bibles from original greek literal translation - modern printed in china...my family rejects Bible...God was ridiculed daily in the house i was raised..i had a dark life of national socalism before Christ pulled me from the darkness....i hold truth in no earthly doctrine...the most rightuius person is like a filthy rag to God....thats why i need Scripture IN context pertaining to which the Scripture is cited

it all makes sense till start comparing to what i hear from mainstream...only then did it seem to be confusing...

I am sorry to hear about your experiences at home and with family. When I started questioning the things I had been taught growing up and started to look to Scripture more deeply, I ended up losing a lot of friends I had from my church upbringing. It's not the same thing obviously, but things like that can happen.

So my question, again, is what do you see when you look at the Bible itself concerning "baptism with the Holy Spirit". I'm not asking you what "the mainstream" says on anything. I'm just inviting you to read the Bible for yourself on this subject.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Gregory95]

I am sorry to hear about your experiences at home and with family. When I started questioning the things I had been taught growing up and started to look to Scripture more deeply, I ended up losing a lot of friends I had from my church upbringing. It's not the same thing obviously, but things like that can happen.

So my question, again, is what do you see when you look at the Bible itself concerning "baptism with the Holy Spirit". I'm not asking you what "the mainstream" says on anything. I'm just inviting you to read the Bible for yourself on this subject.

-CryptoLutheran

well i do and have been min chapter daily for years (here and there i have failed and missed however did it for 6 years with anti God spouse...and still strive (was freed from her unbelieving pressunce) to everyday forward) ive had to turn down massive promotions due to not wishing to violate my principle with Biblical docrine...........so can one be baptized by Christ before water baptism?

 

[Gregory95]

I am sorry to hear about your experiences at home and with family. When I started questioning the things I had been taught growing up and started to look to Scripture more deeply, I ended up losing a lot of friends I had from my church upbringing. It's not the same thing obviously, but things like that can happen.

So my question, again, is what do you see when you look at the Bible itself concerning "baptism with the Holy Spirit". I'm not asking you what "the mainstream" says on anything. I'm just inviting you to read the Bible for yourself on this subject.

-CryptoLutheran

can one be baptized by Christ before water baptism?

 

[Daniel9v9]

thank you for that reply! and i think it would do well for us to keep speaking...from what i quoted we agree 100% however i would point to the Bible in that it tells us we are to follow the doctrine laid out in it (as you agree) and thus how can we allow people to be called what they are not for
2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
1 John 4:1-3
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Galatians 1:6-10
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
1 Timothy 1:3
As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,

2 Peter 2:1-3
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

Yes, and amen!

can one be baptized by Christ before water baptism?

Well, here you're speaking as if there are several baptisms, but what does the Bible say? How many baptisms are there for the Christian? Is a "baptism by Christ" something different from the Baptism He instituted? Doesn't it consist of water and God's Word?

If it's helpful, we can think of it this way:

John's Baptism prepared the way for the Baptism that Christ instituted. And as such, none of us has had or is commanded to receive the Baptism of John. So while John's Baptism is very important and significant, it's in a sense irrelevant to our discussion, because that is not the Baptism God gives us Christians.

In other words, John prophecied, saying: "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

What does the rest of the Bible say this Baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire is? What does Christ tell us in His great commission?

So to make things even simpler: John prophesied one Baptism. Christ instituted one Baptism. Now, what does the Bible say about this one Baptism?

 

[Gregory95]

Yes, and amen!



Well, here you're speaking as if there are several baptisms, but what does the Bible say? How many baptisms are there for the Christian? Is a "baptism by Christ" something different from the Baptism He instituted? Doesn't it consist of water and God's Word?

If it's helpful, we can think of it this way:

John's Baptism prepared the way for the Baptism that Christ instituted. And as such, none of us has had or is commanded to receive the Baptism of John. So while John's Baptism is very important and significant, it's in a sense irrelevant to our discussion, because that is not the Baptism God gives us Christians.

In other words, John prophecied, saying: "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

What does the rest of the Bible say this Baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire is? What does Christ tell us in His great commission?

So to make things even simpler: John prophesied one Baptism. Christ instituted one Baptism. Now, what does the Bible say about this one Baptism?

we might actually agree i never heard it laid out this way...so can one be born again (baptized by Holy Spirit) if they have no accses for the outward complete immursion ?

 

[ViaCrucis]

can one be baptized by Christ before water baptism?

Can a person believe in Christ before they are baptized? Of course. I did. I was a believer in Jesus since before I can remember, but I didn't receive baptism until much later in life--because I belonged to a church that postponed baptism until one was much older.

Which is why you'll see us say "Word and Sacrament", we don't say "baptism alone" or "preaching alone". Some people receive faith when they are infants when they are baptized, others hear the word and come to faith and are baptized later. It's not the order that matters, God doesn't have a step-by-step program for how a person enters into a relationship with Him--He simply gives Himself as grace, as gift, and He does that in what we call Word and Sacrament. Just as "repent and be baptized" is not a step-by-step order, it is a call. So we who are baptized are still called to repentance, that call to be baptized is also the call to live into that baptism, the call to repentance is the call to daily repentance. Because daily we are sinners, daily we are wrestling with sin and struggling against the old sinful self; and so daily God calls us to repentance, and daily God forgives us of our sins, for God's mercies are new every morning,

"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; His mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is Your faithfulness!" - Lamentations 3:22-23

In these things we abide in Christ, abide in His cross. Inhabiting the promises of Jesus where we are secure in Him.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Gregory95]

Now, can a person believe in Christ before they are baptized? Of course. I did. I was a believer in Jesus since before I can remember, but I didn't receive baptism until much later in life--because I belonged to a church that postponed baptism until one was much older.

well yes even demons reconize who He is and thus have to believe He is who He is

probably my fault sorry i mean can one be in darkness and then brought into the light...one be evil then have their new heart from Christ(which is proof of being born again ...God has power to change/harden mans heart ie pharoah) without the water baptism

 

[ViaCrucis]

well yes even demons reconize who He is and thus have to believe He is who He is

probably my fault sorry i mean can one be in darkness and then brought into the light...one be evil then have their new heart from Christ(which is proof of being born again ...God has power to change/harden mans heart ie pharoah) without the water baptism

What did the Ethiopian eunuch say to Phillip in Acts of the Apostles 8:36? "See, there is some water, what prevents me from being baptized?" It's not about what God can do, He can do anything that He wants, He's God. But what does God tell us in Scripture? Jesus says in Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." When God gives faith, He gives faith, and that faith justifies us. If we have faith, but we haven't been baptized--what is it that is stopping us from being baptized? Why wouldn't we get baptized?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Gregory95]

What did the Ethiopian eunuch say to Phillip in Acts of the Apostles 8:36? "See, there is some water, what prevents me from being baptized?" It's not about what God can do, He can do anything that He wants, He's God. But what does God tell us in Scripture? Jesus says in Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." When God gives faith, He gives faith, and that faith justifies us. If we have faith, but we haven't been baptized--what is it that is stopping us from being baptized? Why wouldn't we get baptized?

-CryptoLutheran

what if no local churches will do it since the person wishes for it to be done Biblicly and nothing added from men

 

[ViaCrucis]

what if no local churches will do it since the person wishes for it to be done Biblicly and nothing added from men

I'd want to know more about that situation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Gregory95]

I'd want to know more about that situation.

-CryptoLutheran

all require (during Holy baptism) to interject obediance and joining to the preists pirticular sec...ie baptist says must be baptist, methodist must become methodist ...then non denoms wow some them got STORES in their "church" or to be completly ignored by pastor after repeatedly diligently waiting for your turn to speak with them...

 

[Daniel9v9]

we might actually agree i never heard it laid out this way...so can one be born again (baptized by Holy Spirit) if they have no accses for the outward complete immursion ?

Hey, I'm glad to hear that! God be praised!

Yes, the Holy Spirit can work faith in us through God's Word alone, or God's Word included in Baptism, for it's the same Word.

To make sense of this, I find Mark 16:16 very helpful because it's a wonderful summary of Baptism and how it correlates to faith, salvation, and damnation. God promises us: "Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Here we can see very clearly that:

• Faith and Baptism go together. We also see this in Christ's great commission in Matthew 28:18-20.
• A lack of Baptism does not condemn. Only unbelief condemns.
• Baptism without faith does not save.

The Bible talks about the Holy Spirit coming to us in different ways. For example:

In Acts 10:44-48, Peter preaches the Word of God to gentiles, and the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. Then Peter says: "Can anyone withhold water for baptising these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" Then the gentiles were baptised. So here the people who heard God's Word received faith and the gift of the Holy Spirit even before Baptism.

But in Acts 2:38, Peter says: "Repent and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

So, God can and does give the Holy Spirit who works faith in us apart from Baptism. But how does He promise to give us His Holy Spirit? By believing in and being Baptised in Christ, just as Peter says above, and just as we find summarised in Mark 16:16.

 

[Gregory95]

Hey, I'm glad to hear that! God be praised!

Yes, the Holy Spirit can work faith in us through God's Word alone, or God's Word included in Baptism, for it's the same Word.

To make sense of this, I find Mark 16:16 very helpful because it's a wonderful summary of Baptism and how it correlates to faith, salvation, and damnation. God promises us: "Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Here we can see very clearly that:

• Faith and Baptism go together. We also see this in Christ's great commission in Matthew 28:18-20.
• A lack of Baptism does not condemn. Only unbelief condemns.
• Baptism without faith does not save.

The Bible talks about the Holy Spirit coming to us in different ways. For example:

In Acts 10:44-48, Peter preaches the Word of God to gentiles, and the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. Then Peter says: "Can anyone withhold water for baptising these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" Then the gentiles were baptised. So here the people who heard God's Word received faith and the gift of the Holy Spirit even before Baptism.

But in Acts 2:38, Peter says: "Repent and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

So, God can and does give the Holy Spirit who works faith in us apart from Baptism. But how does He promise to give us His Holy Spirit? By believing in and being Baptised in Christ, just as Peter says above, and just as we find summarised in Mark 16:16.

okay so we agree on this ! may i ask your advis ae on finding someone to baptize according to the Bible not for modern baptism to be fully immerged in name Father Son and Holy Spirit not to be a baptist or anything eles then a Christian

 

[Daniel9v9]

okay so we agree on this ! may i ask your advis ae on finding someone to baptize according to the Bible not for modern baptism to be fully immerged in name Father Son and Holy Spirit not to be a baptist or anything eles then a Christian

Yeah, there's a simple and a complex answer to that question.

Short answer:

Though the visible church is divided, we can take comfort in that God works faith across all the different denominations. So if you want to be baptised, you can receive it from any Christian church that professes faith in Jesus Christ and baptises in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Long answer:

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're asking about a church body that:

• Believes that the Bible is our supreme authority for it is truly God's Word.
• Do not practice modern Baptism (I'm not quite sure what this means, sorry. Can you help me understand?)
• Practices full immersion. (I presume you mean exclusively)
• Baptises in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
• Isn't a Baptist church or of any denomination.

Providing I understand you correctly, I can say that no such church exists. Not because there are no faithful churches out there, but because these requirements are very specific and belong to different theological systems. Basically, if I were to say the non-denominational churches, who call themselves "Christian" instead of "Baptist" or "Evangelical" etc., and baptise in the triune name, and generally tend to insist on full immersion, that is not necessarily what is the closest to the Bible, which is what you want.

Non-denominational churches may be non-denominational in an organisational sense but not in theology. Their theology is distinctly Baptist-Charismatic. Some are closer to Baptist and others are closer to Pentecostal theology. So, in a way, it's a little dishonest to claim that they don't belong to any denomination, or that they are entirely neutral, or "just Christian", when in reality, they are Baptist or Charismatic, only without clear statements of faith.

It's best to return to the Bible for guidance. What does God's Word say in regard to the waters of Baptism? Does it insist on full immersion? If yes, how so? If no, why then do some church bodies insist on it? I think if you look into these questions, you can start to see the different understandings of Baptism, and what God's Word says.

 

[FaithT]

Yeah, there's a simple and a complex answer to that question.

Short answer:

Though the visible church is divided, we can take comfort in that God works faith across all the different denominations. So if you want to be baptised, you can receive it from any Christian church that professes faith in Jesus Christ and baptises in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Long answer:

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're asking about a church body that:

• Believes that the Bible is our supreme authority for it is truly God's Word.
• Do not practice modern Baptism (I'm not quite sure what this means, sorry. Can you help me understand?)
• Practices full immersion. (I presume you mean exclusively)
• Baptises in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
• Isn't a Baptist church or of any denomination.

Providing I understand you correctly, I can say that no such church exists. Not because there are no faithful churches out there, but because these requirements are very specific and belong to different theological systems. Basically, if I were to say the non-denominational churches, who call themselves "Christian" instead of "Baptist" or "Evangelical" etc., and baptise in the triune name, and generally tend to insist on full immersion, that is not necessarily what is the closest to the Bible, which is what you want.

Non-denominational churches may be non-denominational in an organisational sense but not in theology. Their theology is distinctly Baptist-Charismatic. Some are closer to Baptist and others are closer to Pentecostal theology. So, in a way, it's a little dishonest to claim that they don't belong to any denomination, or that they are entirely neutral, or "just Christian", when in reality, they are Baptist or Charismatic, only without clear statements of faith.

It's best to return to the Bible for guidance. What does God's Word say in regard to the waters of Baptism? Does it insist on full immersion? If yes, how so? If no, why then do some church bodies insist on it? I think if you look into these questions, you can start to see the different understandings of Baptism, and what God's Word says.

Thanks for your answer about the ND churches. I went to one for awhile before becoming Lutheran. In fact I was going to both churches for awhile. They used to call themselves Christian but I was never clear on what they believed except that they were very Bible based. They were also very political, big Trump supporters (I do NOT want to get into a debate here about Trump) and didn’t support mask wearing during the pandemic, putting down the wearing of masks and calling it a “scamdemic.”
The head pastor used a derogatory word for gays and on and on.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Thanks for your answer about the ND churches. I went to one for awhile before becoming Lutheran. In fact I was going to both churches for awhile. They used to call themselves Christian but I was never clear on what they believed except that they were very Bible based. They were also very political, big Trump supporters (I do NOT want to get into a debate here about Trump) and didn’t support mask wearing during the pandemic, putting down the wearing of masks and calling it a “scamdemic.”
The head pastor used a derogatory word for gays and on and on.

Ah, yeah. I've spent enough time in the world of Pentecostal and non-denominationalism to relate, though some of the unfortunate things you've experienced are distinctly American. That is, masks and US politics are not an issue where I live, but they have a common Baptist-Charismatic theological system.