Is infant baptism unbiblical?

FaithT

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Ah, yeah. I've spent enough time in the world of Pentecostal and non-denominationalism to relate, though some of the unfortunate things you've experienced are distinctly American. That is, masks and US politics are not an issue where I live, but they have a common Baptist-Charismatic theological system.
Can you tell us more about the Baptist-Charismatic theological system? I mean what is it that they actually believe? All I knew was that they took everything in the Bible literally. And most every answer to a question started with let’s see what the Bible says about that”. Then they’d thumb through the pages.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Can you tell us more about the Baptist-Charismatic theological system? I mean what is it that they actually believe? All I knew was that they took everything in the Bible literally. And most every answer to a question started with let’s see what the Bible says about that”. Then they’d thumb through the pages.

When you look at the non-denominational movement one finds that its major influences come from the Baptist and Charismatic traditions. The Baptist influence can be seen in things like practicing immersion-only "believer's baptism", a lack of a formal adherence to the historic creeds of the Church, the total autonomy of the local congregation, etc. The Charismatic influence varies from church to church, there are some non-denom churches that are very Charismatic, and there are some that are emphatically not Charismatic at all. I grew up, for the first few years of my life, in a non-Charismatic non-denominational church that simply described itself as a "Bible church", in fact "Bible Church" was in their name.

As it pertains to these influences, you won't really see much else. You aren't really going to find, for example, a non-denominational church with a strong Lutheran influence, or a strong Eastern Orthodox influence, etc. So the term "non-denominational" tends to remain quite firmly within a particular subset of modern Protestantism and is generally Baptist in all but name, and which may or may not be Charismatic depending on what the leadership of the church happens to believe on that subject. Which generally also describes the American Neo-Evangelical Movement on the whole. Today we usually just call Neo-Evangelicalism "Evangelicalism", having lost its "Neo-" prefix.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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FaithT

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When you look at the non-denominational movement one finds that its major influences come from the Baptist and Charismatic traditions. The Baptist influence can be seen in things like practicing immersion-only "believer's baptism", a lack of a formal adherence to the historic creeds of the Church, the total autonomy of the local congregation, etc. The Charismatic influence varies from church to church, there are some non-denom churches that are very Charismatic, and there are some that are emphatically not Charismatic at all. I grew up, for the first few years of my life, in a non-Charismatic non-denominational church that simply described itself as a "Bible church", in fact "Bible Church" was in their name.

As it pertains to these influences, you won't really see much else. You aren't really going to find, for example, a non-denominational church with a strong Lutheran influence, or a strong Eastern Orthodox influence, etc. So the term "non-denominational" tends to remain quite firmly within a particular subset of modern Protestantism and is generally Baptist in all but name, and which may or may not be Charismatic depending on what the leadership of the church happens to believe on that subject. Which generally also describes the American Neo-Evangelical Movement on the whole. Today we usually just call Neo-Evangelicalism "Evangelicalism", having lost its "Neo-" prefix.

-CryptoLutheran
What do you man by “total autonomy of the local congregation”?
 
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ViaCrucis

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What do you man by “total autonomy of the local congregation”?

It's probably better explained from a Baptist source itself: Baptists Believe in Church Autonomy | Beliefs, polity, ministries, practices, organizations, and heritage of Baptists

But the brief summary is that each local church/congregation is entirely self-contained and doesn't have outside leadership or influence; there is nothing above the local congregation itself. At least in theory, if not necessarily in practice. That's basically what autonomy of the local church/congregation is about.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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FaithT

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It's probably better explained from a Baptist source itself: Baptists Believe in Church Autonomy | Beliefs, polity, ministries, practices, organizations, and heritage of Baptists

But the brief summary is that each local church/congregation is entirely self-contained and doesn't have outside leadership or influence; there is nothing above the local congregation itself. At least in theory, if not necessarily in practice. That's basically what autonomy of the local church/congregation is about.

-CryptoLutheran
Yep…..sounds like the ND church I went to. But they did have a good praise band. Very rock-ish, loud and vibrant.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Can you tell us more about the Baptist-Charismatic theological system? I mean what is it that they actually believe? All I knew was that they took everything in the Bible literally. And most every answer to a question started with let’s see what the Bible says about that”. Then they’d thumb through the pages.

Yeah, I think ViaCrucis explained it well, but if it's helpful, I can offer a brief (and rather simplified) historical perspective that led to the rise of the non-denominational churches.

Before the Reformation, the corruption and abuses in the visible church were widespread and well-known, and this led to the general desire to reform. However, people had different ideas about what exactly needed reforming and in what way. So, in the western church, we ended up with several kinds of reformations. And I think we can group them as: Lutheran, Anglican, Roman Catholic, and Reformed. And among the Reformed, we have some that are close to Lutheran teaching, and some that were radical. One of the early and leading figures in this movement is Zwingli.

The radical reformers rejected the Biblical teaching and historical practice of the Sacraments. They were devoted to piety, but at the expense of sound doctrine. And the teachings of these were the seeds for a lot of what we think of as generic Evangelical theology in our day.

If we fast forward a bit, we arrive at a very significant movement called the American Restoration Movement. This has had a tremendous influence on the western church and is in a lot of ways the foundation or background for non-denominationalism. The theology that came with this movement is marked by their opposition to creeds and their desire to unify all Christians under their radical teachings. And this is the theology and heritage that non-denominational churches have inherited. And the interesting thing is that due to their aversion to creeds and church history in general, most people who identify as non-denominational have no real knowledge of their own history.

So, in short, the non-denominational churches are a product of the radical reformation and anti-creed mentality. And though they are in most parts loosely Baptist or Pentecostal, it's also worth mentioning that other religions that exist outside of Christianity have rebranded as "non-denominational". So this goes to show how fluid and minimal they are in their teaching. And though they like to consider themselves "neutral", if we consider the broader church and its history, they are far from it.

In a weird way, what started out as a rejection of the Pope, who claimed to speak for God as the head of the church, the non-denominational churches have arrived at a place where, essentially, every church leader is a kind of pope. Needless to say, the radical reformation was unsuccessful.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yep…..sounds like the ND church I went to. But they did have a good praise band. Very rock-ish, loud and vibrant.

Not necessarily a component of all ND churches, but I'd say it's pretty common. The rise of "worshiptainment" is itself a fascinating history that has its roots in 19th century Revivalism. Essentially the key component of Revivalism was the idea of "New Measures"; that's what Charles Finney, often considered a leading figure and pioneer of American Revivalism, called them. Finney became convinced that in order to really and truly be a Christian one needed a profound and obvious experience of conversion. Finney had been raised Presbyterian and taught in a Presbyterian seminary, but came to reject his Presbyterian/Reformed upbringing in favor of this conversionary experience. And so he believed it was necessary to create "new measures", that is new ways and methods to get people to have a profound conversion experience. So, as just an example, he implemented what he called "the anxious bench" where after fiery intense preaching and people were emotionally primed, could come forward for prayer and commit themselves to a life of dedication to Jesus. That is the origin of the "altar call" that is common in many different churches today.

That is the basis and origins for the language of "make a decision for Jesus" and "accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" and "invite Jesus into your heart". Aka "Decisionism", that salvation depends on a concrete personal decision and conversion experience.

In the 20th century we can see how this Revivalist mentality produced a number of preachers, for example Billy Sunday who [in]famously said "God has done His part, now you need to do your part". Or Bill Bright who founded Campus Crusade for Christ and is the author of "The Four Spiritual Laws" which is still one of the most common conversion-seeking pamphlets still handed out and distributed today--in which you will find the formula of how Jesus did His part, but now we need to come to Him and have this conversion experience. This conversion experience being called "born again", which is very different to how Christians have historically understood what the new birth was. Hence why in the late 20th century you see the rise of the term "Born Again Christian" as a growing populist movement within Evangelical Protestantism--made most famous in America when President Jimmy Carter referred to himself in this way.

The rise of various forms of Evangelical media, such as radio and later television, and also music as tools to "reach the lost" and try and get people to have that "born again experience" really took off. That gets us to a booming music industry, both what we call "Contemporary Christian Music" and also a genre of "Praise and Worship". "Praise and Worship" music focused on creating an emotionally charged environment that was conducive to getting people to come forward when that "altar call" was made so they could have that "born again experience". Evolving over the past several decades into full rock ban concert style "worship services". I.e. "worshiptainment". And the use of music slowly became less about confessing and hearing the word of God, in offering gratitude and thanks for what God has done, and being bold and clear in what we believe and became more vapid, shallow, and "God makes me feel happy" type of music. And treating that emotionally-charged goosebumps type experience as though that is what "God feels like", which is why one might hear "Man, I really felt God this morning at church" or "The Holy Spirit was really moving today in worship".

I don't want to say that it's wrong to have guitars, or that rock music is bad (I love rock, and bluegrass, and hiphop, and blues, and motown, and...). But when worship is turned into an emotional experience because the music gives us a rush of endorphins, and we conclude that's God? That's a serious, serious problem. It becomes an even bigger problem when the music itself is incredibly shallow and vapid theologically.

Even before I was a Lutheran, as I simply was learning more about good theology and really putting my nose into the Bible, I began to notice some serious problems about the content of a lot of "praise and worship" music. Some of the biggest problems I noticed was how the lyrics did a terrible job of making a distinction between the Three Persons of the Trinity. To the point where it sounded like Jesus was being called the Father. And then I noticed how this confused language would translate into how people would pray, and talk about God, occasionally hearing fellow believers refer to Jesus as "Daddy God". Other problems I noticed were that a lot of the music placed the emphasis on personal feelings, or talking about looking inside of oneself or to oneself. The content of the music seemed to be increasingly less about Jesus, about His death and resurrection, about how we were rescued by God's grace, and our gratitude for what God has done. Some songs were so bad that it wasn't actually clear at all what it was about.

Now, there certainly are songs out there that can be broadly called "praise and worship" music that aren't all that terrible, and some that could even be called good. But, at least in my experiences, that good music became increasingly more difficult to find. At this point, I'll be honest that I'm quite out of the loop when it comes to this stuff. I haven't paid attention to the CCM and "Praise and Worship" music scene in at least 15 years if not longer. I'm sure there is at least some decent stuff out there, but I couldn't really tell you what or where it is. I think the problem of worshiptainment is still a huge problem, perhaps even worse now than it was when I was younger. Though I have seen more push-back over recent years, which I think is itself good.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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FaithT

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Not necessarily a component of all ND churches, but I'd say it's pretty common. The rise of "worshiptainment" is itself a fascinating history that has its roots in 19th century Revivalism. Essentially the key component of Revivalism was the idea of "New Measures"; that's what Charles Finney, often considered a leading figure and pioneer of American Revivalism, called them. Finney became convinced that in order to really and truly be a Christian one needed a profound and obvious experience of conversion. Finney had been raised Presbyterian and taught in a Presbyterian seminary, but came to reject his Presbyterian/Reformed upbringing in favor of this conversionary experience. And so he believed it was necessary to create "new measures", that is new ways and methods to get people to have a profound conversion experience. So, as just an example, he implemented what he called "the anxious bench" where after fiery intense preaching and people were emotionally primed, could come forward for prayer and commit themselves to a life of dedication to Jesus. That is the origin of the "altar call" that is common in many different churches today.

That is the basis and origins for the language of "make a decision for Jesus" and "accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" and "invite Jesus into your heart". Aka "Decisionism", that salvation depends on a concrete personal decision and conversion experience.

In the 20th century we can see how this Revivalist mentality produced a number of preachers, for example Billy Sunday who [in]famously said "God has done His part, now you need to do your part". Or Bill Bright who founded Campus Crusade for Christ and is the author of "The Four Spiritual Laws" which is still one of the most common conversion-seeking pamphlets still handed out and distributed today--in which you will find the formula of how Jesus did His part, but now we need to come to Him and have this conversion experience. This conversion experience being called "born again", which is very different to how Christians have historically understood what the new birth was. Hence why in the late 20th century you see the rise of the term "Born Again Christian" as a growing populist movement within Evangelical Protestantism--made most famous in America when President Jimmy Carter referred to himself in this way.

The rise of various forms of Evangelical media, such as radio and later television, and also music as tools to "reach the lost" and try and get people to have that "born again experience" really took off. That gets us to a booming music industry, both what we call "Contemporary Christian Music" and also a genre of "Praise and Worship". "Praise and Worship" music focused on creating an emotionally charged environment that was conducive to getting people to come forward when that "altar call" was made so they could have that "born again experience". Evolving over the past several decades into full rock ban concert style "worship services". I.e. "worshiptainment". And the use of music slowly became less about confessing and hearing the word of God, in offering gratitude and thanks for what God has done, and being bold and clear in what we believe and became more vapid, shallow, and "God makes me feel happy" type of music. And treating that emotionally-charged goosebumps type experience as though that is what "God feels like", which is why one might hear "Man, I really felt God this morning at church" or "The Holy Spirit was really moving today in worship".

I don't want to say that it's wrong to have guitars, or that rock music is bad (I love rock, and bluegrass, and hiphop, and blues, and motown, and...). But when worship is turned into an emotional experience because the music gives us a rush of endorphins, and we conclude that's God? That's a serious, serious problem. It becomes an even bigger problem when the music itself is incredibly shallow and vapid theologically.

Even before I was a Lutheran, as I simply was learning more about good theology and really putting my nose into the Bible, I began to notice some serious problems about the content of a lot of "praise and worship" music. Some of the biggest problems I noticed was how the lyrics did a terrible job of making a distinction between the Three Persons of the Trinity. To the point where it sounded like Jesus was being called the Father. And then I noticed how this confused language would translate into how people would pray, and talk about God, occasionally hearing fellow believers refer to Jesus as "Daddy God". Other problems I noticed were that a lot of the music placed the emphasis on personal feelings, or talking about looking inside of oneself or to oneself. The content of the music seemed to be increasingly less about Jesus, about His death and resurrection, about how we were rescued by God's grace, and our gratitude for what God has done. Some songs were so bad that it wasn't actually clear at all what it was about.

Now, there certainly are songs out there that can be broadly called "praise and worship" music that aren't all that terrible, and some that could even be called good. But, at least in my experiences, that good music became increasingly more difficult to find. At this point, I'll be honest that I'm quite out of the loop when it comes to this stuff. I haven't paid attention to the CCM and "Praise and Worship" music scene in at least 15 years if not longer. I'm sure there is at least some decent stuff out there, but I couldn't really tell you what or where it is. I think the problem of worshiptainment is still a huge problem, perhaps even worse now than it was when I was younger. Though I have seen more push-back over recent years, which I think is itself good.

-CryptoLutheran
You’d probably consider my LCMS church’s music as “worshiptainment”. My church is very contemporary and the music is pop/rock style, but I love our praise band.
 
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ViaCrucis

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You’d probably consider my LCMS church’s music as “worshiptainment”. My church is very contemporary and the music is pop/rock style, but I love our praise band.

I doubt that what I'm talking about is something happening in any LCMS church.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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FaithT

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I doubt that what I'm talking about is something happening in any LCMS church.

-CryptoLutheran

I don’t know but I can say that it’s not as loud and energetic as the ND church I went to. The ND church also has all these flashing lights….I did like the music but I must say that between the music, the energetic style of praise and the lights it was sensory overload.
 
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I’m lutheran but i don’t always listen to the lutheran position because it might very often be against the bible.

This. I think it is important to take into account viewpoints contrary to that of your own denomination as it helps you get both sides of a debate.
 
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I think I cleared the Infant Baptism hurdle this AM!!! And not on purpose.

I am reading thru Luke, and got to ch. 18 verse 15. I read the NLT for ease, but am aware it's not literal translation, so I checked that verse in the KJV, NKJ, RSV, Amplified, ESV - they all say that they were bringing infants or babies - not children like many translations state.

It also states that we are receive the Kingdom like they did. Sometimes translations make a big difference.
 
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Daniel9v9

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I think I cleared the Infant Baptism hurdle this AM!!! And not on purpose.

I am reading thru Luke, and got to ch. 18 verse 15. I read the NLT for ease, but am aware it's not literal translation, so I checked that verse in the KJV, NKJ, RSV, Amplified, ESV - they all say that they were bringing infants or babies - not children like many translations state.

It also states that we are receive the Kingdom like they did. Sometimes translations make a big difference.

Hey, God be praised! You are quite right in your observation. I touched on it in post #36 in this thread if you're interested.
 
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