Is honesty a strict requirement, always, no exceptions?

[NotreDame]

I think it comes back to the idea that morality is about the best way to behave morally in any given situation. That means lying may be the wrong in one situation but the right thing in another.

I don't think moral truths (objective morality) are absolute because we can reason out each situation and come to a moral truth just for that situation only. The same for each and every situation determined separately according to its context. But against a set of moral truths that are grounded beyond human ideas and rationalisations or justifications.



The protection of life is also seen as the top moral good in secular society. If your lies managed to save everyone from a crazy gunman you would be a hero. This is because God put in everyones heart His laws and 'do unto others' is the 2nd greatest commandment and all commandements are ultimately about upholding and protecting life.

We know lying is wrong according to Gods laws. But Christ updated the law in that it was the state of our heart and intentions that were what led to sin and what was sin. I don't think a heart and intention that is wanting to preserve Gods ultimate law of upholding and protecting human life from unjustified killing is sinful.

Yes, undoubtedly this is what you “think” but what verse permits as not sinful a lie believed to be necessary, sincerely thought to be necessary, is necessary, to “preserve Gods ultimate law of upholding and protecting human life from unjustified killing is sinful.”

Which I want to pause for a moment and correct a misstatement. The “God’s ultimate law” is His ultimate commandment. “34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.35 And one of them, [t]a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him: 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and [u]foremost commandment.” Matt 22, NASB

This disclosure the bolded is the “ultimate” or “greatest” or “great” or “foremost” commandment or command of God’s law also finds its support in the ordering of the mandates in Deuteronomy 6, with the first commandment as, “And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.” NASB

A corollary of this “foremost” command is expressed in the first few commandments in Exodus 20.

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [a]slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods [b]before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself [c]an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them nor serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, inflicting the [d]punishment of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing [e]favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not [f]leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.” NASB.

So, a premise of your position is not true, that of “Gods ultimate law of upholding and protecting human life from unjustified killing is sinful.” This not true premise cannot, Biblically at least, justify lying within the context of your position.

However, is there some other Biblical provision justifying a lie to “upholding and protecting human life from unjustified killing is sinful”?

You think so as you wrote:

This is because God put in everyones heart His laws and 'do unto others' is the 2nd greatest commandment

Huh? The second greatest commandment is, “The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 Upon these two commandments [v]hang the whole Law and the Prophets.” Matt. 22, NASB

You do not provide much exposition or argument, more accurately none, how this second commandment justifies a lie to satisfying the “law of upholding and protecting human life from unjustified killing is sinful.”

This is problematic, especially since your mere proclamation presents and creates a moral conflict between the “love your neighbor or as yourself” and “shall not…lie to one another” and the derogatory view of liars and where they are presaged Biblically to spend eternity.

“11 ‘You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another. 12 And you shall not swear falsely by My name, so as to profane the name of your God; I am the Lord.” Leviticus 19, NASB.

“8 But for the cowardly, and [d]unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and [e]brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21, NASB.

“44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he tells [q]a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of [r]lies.” John 8, NASB

If there is a Biblical basis and argument for lies in certain contexts, and as you claim, you’ve not presented the argument or basis for this view.

 

[NotreDame]

Honesty is more of a matter of character than strictly about telling the truth. If the intention is to deceive, even while technically telling the truth, then the actions are dishonest despite there being no lie. The real issue isn't about whether or in what circumstances lies are acceptable or even honorable, but whether or not we are living as people of integrity. Some modicum of honesty is expected of Christians, but setting absolutes in matters of ethics is begging for exceptions to be pointed out. Integrity must not allow us to compromise, because as soon as we begin compromising we start on the path towards completely losing that integrity.

Do you have a verse allowing for lying under some circumstances?

The Bible commands not to lie. “
“11 ‘You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another. 12 And you shall not swear falsely by My name, so as to profane the name of your God; I am the Lord.” Leviticus 19, NASB.

The Bible destines liars for an eternal sauna.

“8 But for the cowardly, and [d]unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and [e]brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21, NASB.

The command to not lie is as much a command as the “foremost” command of, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and [u]foremost commandment.” Matt 22, NASB

Is the greatest command not absolute? What other commands in the Bible have unenumerated exceptions?

I suppose it only stands to reason if there are exceptions commands, they’re not absolute, then this is true of the “foremost” command and the 2nd greatest of, “The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 Upon these two commandments [v]hang the whole Law and the Prophets.” Matt. 22, NASB

I’m not sure there are exceptions.

 

[stevevw]

Yes, undoubtedly this is what you “think” but what verse permits as not sinful a lie believed to be necessary, sincerely thought to be necessary, is necessary, to “preserve Gods ultimate law of upholding and protecting human life from unjustified killing is sinful.”

Which I want to pause for a moment and correct a misstatement. The “God’s ultimate law” is His ultimate commandment. “34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.35 And one of them, [t]a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him: 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and [u]foremost commandment.” Matt 22, NASB

This disclosure the bolded is the “ultimate” or “greatest” or “great” or “foremost” commandment or command of God’s law also finds its support in the ordering of the mandates in Deuteronomy 6, with the first commandment as, “And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.” NASB

A corollary of this “foremost” command is expressed in the first few commandments in Exodus 20.

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of [a]slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods [b]before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself [c]an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them nor serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, inflicting the [d]punishment of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing [e]favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not [f]leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.” NASB.

So, a premise of your position is not true, that of “Gods ultimate law of upholding and protecting human life from unjustified killing is sinful.” This not true premise cannot, Biblically at least, justify lying within the context of your position.

However, is there some other Biblical provision justifying a lie to “upholding and protecting human life from unjustified killing is sinful”?

You think so as you wrote:



Huh? The second greatest commandment is, “The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 Upon these two commandments [v]hang the whole Law and the Prophets.” Matt. 22, NASB

You do not provide much exposition or argument, more accurately none, how this second commandment justifies a lie to satisfying the “law of upholding and protecting human life from unjustified killing is sinful.”

This is problematic, especially since your mere proclamation presents and creates a moral conflict between the “love your neighbor or as yourself” and “shall not…lie to one another” and the derogatory view of liars and where they are presaged Biblically to spend eternity.

“11 ‘You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another. 12 And you shall not swear falsely by My name, so as to profane the name of your God; I am the Lord.” Leviticus 19, NASB.

“8 But for the cowardly, and [d]unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and [e]brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21, NASB.

“44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he tells [q]a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of [r]lies.” John 8, NASB

If there is a Biblical basis and argument for lies in certain contexts, and as you claim, you’ve not presented the argument or basis for this view.

I think it depends on what is considered a lie. Isn't that a subjective determination. Yes a lie is a lie but what is a lie lol.

For example Christ told those who witnessed His miracles not to tell others. Now if someone who witnessed this was asked what was going on with Jesus and they declined to tell others what happened is that a lie. Obviously this was to protect Jesus at that time as the time had not yet come for Him to be arrested.

But principly its the same that people were not divulging the truth and perhaps being put in situations where they had to even lie if those healed o witnessed this were asked how they were healed.

I just break it down to how I would act. I have some neighbours in my attic and a Nazi at my front door who wants to kill them. If I tell the truth I am sentencing them to death. I may as well have put them in the gas chamber myself. I could not live with myself.

I think this is where the 2nd geatest commandment comes in. Christ said both these commandments sum up the law. So some apply to when God is to be God and some when it involves neighbours. If we are loving God with all our hearts and minds and strength then we are loving our neighbours.

In fact this is what Christs represents and mentions this with the good Samaritan. Saving the Jews from the Nazis seems to echo this. Helping a dispised race of people when no one else would dare.

If for example you did lie to protect the Jews in your attic but later it was discovered you were lying to protect the Jews. It would lead to you being perhaps jailed or even executed. Is that not the greatest love that someone has laid down their life for another.

 

[Fervent]

Do you have a verse allowing for lying under some circumstances?

Were the handmaidens right for lying to save the babies(? Or was David right to lie to the priest about the consecration of his men? How about Rahab and the Israelite spies?

Bearing false witness isn't just lying, it's making a formal accusation on false pretenses and attempting to get someone punished on the basis of the lie.