Is homosexuality a sin?

[Macx]

So, you seem to think that purposely misrepresnting my statements somehow makes the truth less true. How unfortunate for you. I suppose If you know you are wrong . . . you'd have to go that way.

What percent of Jews are homosexual?

What percent of people of African American origin are homosexual?

What percentage of Hispanics are homosexual?

What percentage of people with blue eyes are homosexual?

What percentage of people who left handed are homosexual?

Seeing as the conversation is about homosexuality . . .. comparing apples to apples seems, honest. Those are some splendid citrus fruits you mention, but the conversation isn't about that.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Are you serious?

In July of 2005 when the study started, the population of the U.S. was 295,560,549 according to the U.S. Census Bureau found here Google - public data

What percent of 295,560,549 is 8,800,000? 2.9773933056268617% Roughly (rounding up) 3 out of every 100 Americans is Gay. Does that make it normal or abnormal? Is it the exception or the rule? Any other questions with obvious answers you'd like me to dig up for ya Mr. Doughnut?

Can I have an actual answer instead of random statistics? Since when was 'abnormality' a sign of mental illness?

Saying 'Oh look, there's not many of them, so they must be ill' is not an answer. Give me studies that actually show that it is an illness or concede the point. You claimed that it was an illness even though it is no longer classified as one. Now prove it.

At least try to come up with sensible arguments. Abnormality is not an illness.

 

[Supreme]

Homosexuality is not a sin. Heck, I'd go so far as to say that within a loving relationship, homosexual sex is not a sin. God creates us, He makes us who we are- we are do not choose our sexuality. I do not believe God would deliberately make someone born with a sin they cannot escape from.

 

[nChrist]

Again, on the issue of sin and homosexuality, it doesn't matter what people think or want - ZERO. Statistics, theories, labels, tags, semantics games, and all other things of men also mean ZERO.

God and His Word are the sole authorities, and He is blunt and clear on this issue.

If you don't recognize God and His Word as authorities, the discussion then would not be about sin, rather about the desires and morals of men.

====================

Genesis 18:19-23 KJV For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. 22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. 23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

Genesis 18:19-23 AMP For I have known (chosen, acknowledged) him [as My own], so that he may teach and command his children and the sons of his house after him to keep the way of the Lord and to do what is just and righteous, so that the Lord may bring Abraham what He has promised him. 20 And the Lord said, Because the shriek [of the sins] of Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is exceedingly grievous, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether [as vilely and wickedly] as is the cry of it which has come to Me; and if not, I will know. 22 Now the [two] men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord. 23 And Abraham came close and said, Will You destroy the righteous (those upright and in right standing with God) together with the wicked?

====================

Genesis 19:4-7 KJV But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: 5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Genesis 19:4-7 AMP But before they lay down, the men of the city of Sodom, both young and old, all the men from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said, Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know (be intimate with) them. 6 And Lot went out of the door to the men and shut the door after him 7 And said, I beg of you, my brothers, do not behave so wickedly.

====================

Leviticus 18:22-25 KJV Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. 24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

Leviticus 18:22-25 AMP You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination. [I Cor. 6:9, 10.] 23 Neither shall you lie with any beast and defile yourself with it; neither shall any woman yield herself to a beast to lie with it; it is confusion, perversion, and degradedly carnal. 24 Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, for in all these things the nations are defiled which I am casting out before you. 25 And the land is defiled; therefore I visit the iniquity of it upon it, and the land itself vomits out her inhabitants.

====================

Leviticus 20:13 KJV If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:13 AMP If a man lies with a male as if he were a woman, both men have committed an offense (something perverse, unnatural, abhorrent, and detestable); they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

====================

Romans 1:22-28 KJV Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Romans 1:22-28 AMP Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves]. 23 And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin], 25 Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen (so be it). [Jer. 2:11.] 26 For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one, 27 And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another--men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing and going astray, which was [their] fitting retribution. 28 And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome,

===================

1 Corinthians 6:9 KJV Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 Corinthians 6:9 AMP Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,

====================

Ephesians 4:18-19 KJV Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Ephesians 4:18-19 AMP Their moral understanding is darkened and their reasoning is beclouded. [They are] alienated (estranged, self-banished) from the life of God [with no share in it; this is] because of the ignorance (the want of knowledge and perception, the willful blindness) that is deep-seated in them, due to their hardness of heart [to the insensitiveness of their moral nature]. 19 In their spiritual apathy they have become callous and past feeling and reckless and have abandoned themselves [a prey] to unbridled sensuality, eager and greedy to indulge in every form of impurity [that their depraved desires may suggest and demand].

====================

Ephesians 5:11-12 KJV And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

Ephesians 5:11-12 AMP Take no part in and have no fellowship with the fruitless deeds and enterprises of darkness, but instead [let your lives be so in contrast as to] expose and reprove and convict them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of or mention the things that [such people] practice in secret.

====================

1 Timothy 1:9-10 KJV Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1 Timothy 1:9-10 AMP Knowing and understanding this: that the Law is not enacted for the righteous (the upright and just, who are in right standing with God), but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinful, for the irreverent and profane, for those who strike and beat and [even] murder fathers and strike and beat and [even] murder mothers, for manslayers, 10 [For] impure and immoral persons, those who abuse themselves with men, kidnapers, liars, perjurers--and whatever else is opposed to wholesome teaching and sound doctrine

====================

Jude 1:6-10 KJV And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jude 1:6-10 AMP And angels who did not keep (care for, guard, and hold to) their own first place of power but abandoned their proper dwelling place--these He has reserved in custody in eternal chains (bonds) under the thick gloom of utter darkness until the judgment and doom of the great day. 7 [The wicked are sentenced to suffer] just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent towns--which likewise gave themselves over to impurity and indulged in unnatural vice and sensual perversity--are laid out [in plain sight] as an exhibit of perpetual punishment [to warn] of everlasting fire. [ Gen. 19.] 8 Nevertheless in like manner, these dreamers also corrupt the body, scorn and reject authority and government, and revile and libel and scoff at [heavenly] glories (the glorious ones). 9 But when [even] the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, judicially argued (disputed) about the body of Moses, he dared not [presume to] bring an abusive condemnation against him, but [simply] said, The Lord rebuke you! [Zech. 3:2.] 10 But these men revile (scoff and sneer at) anything they do not happen to be acquainted with and do not understand; and whatever they do understand physically [that which they know by mere instinct], like irrational beasts--by these they corrupt themselves and are destroyed (perish).

====================

 

[selfinflikted]

Homosexuality is not a sin. Heck, I'd go so far as to say that within a loving relationship, homosexual sex is not a sin. God creates us, He makes us who we are- we are do not choose our sexuality. I do not believe God would deliberately make someone born with a sin they cannot escape from.

Further, why would god (assuming that he exists) - creator of the universe, powerful beyond measure - give two rats about who mere mortal humans are shacking up with? Seems such a petty concern for a being of such ...stature, doesn't it?

 

[selfinflikted]

Ed.

 

[Macx]

At least try to come up with sensible arguments.

You don't seem interested in sensible arguments. You asked for proof I gave you proof. You asked for a study I gave you a study. No matter what you ask, I could give exactly what you'd ask and you'd call it "random statistics"

Here it is:

Originally Posted by Macx

As a mental health professional I agree that it isn't currently listed in the DSM. The status of homosexuality in the DSM does not change what it is. It was sexual attraction (and all that) toward non-normative partners & it still is. Unless homosexuality has suddenly taken on a different meaning, or they have become a significant enough portion of society to be considered normative, it is still . . . abnormal.​

​

You replied

You have the studies to back up your argument, right? If it's that obvious then someone will have proven it.

I then supplied the padded (in favor of your side) numbers from a liberal/pro gay organization:

How many gay people are there in the United States?
The Williams Institute at the UCLA School of Law, a sexual orientation law and public policy think tank, estimates that there are 8.8 million gay, lesbian, and bisexual persons in the U.S based on the 2005/2006 American Community Survey, an extension of the U.S. Census (Gary J. Gates, 2006, "Same-Sex Couples and the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual Population: New Estimates from the American Community Survey").
​

In July of 2005 when the study started, the population of the U.S. was 295,560,549 according to the U.S. Census Bureau found here Google - public data

What percent of 295,560,549 is 8,800,000? 2.9773933056268617% Roughly (rounding up) 3 out of every 100 Americans is Gay. Does that make it normal or abnormal? Is it the exception or the rule?

You want to make believe that homosexuality is normal, okay. You can do that, but at the end of the day, it is still make believe. Me personally, I'd rather have a unicorn. Or were you meaning that homosexuality has become something other than what homosexuality was . .. . between the 1950's and now? Has the term fundamentally changed in meaning? Is an apple now a brown skinned tubar that is cut into strips, fried and often served next to burgers or fish?

 

[selfinflikted]

You want to make believe that homosexuality is normal, okay. You can do that, but at the end of the day, it is still make believe. Me personally, I'd rather have a unicorn. Or were you meaning that homosexuality has become something other than what homosexuality was . .. . between the 1950's and now? Has the term fundamentally changed in meaning? Is an apple now a brown skinned tubar that is cut into strips, fried and often served next to burgers or fish?

I do not disagree that homosexuality is "non-normative", as you've said. The majority of people on this earth are heterosexual, so any sexual orientation other than that would be considered so. However, I strongly disagree that homosexuality is a mental illness. You have certainly proven that it is not "normal" but you have done absolutely nothing to convince me that it is a mental disorder. Simply because something is against the norm neither makes it bad nor does it make it a mental disorder, as you seem to repeatedly imply.

 

[SithDoughnut]

You don't seem interested in sensible arguments. You asked for proof I gave you proof. You asked for a study I gave you a study. No matter what you ask, I could give exactly what you'd ask and you'd call it "random statistics"

Here it is:

[/indent]You replied

I then supplied the padded (in favor of your side) numbers from a liberal/pro gay organization:


You want to make believe that homosexuality is normal, okay. You can do that, but at the end of the day, it is still make believe. Me personally, I'd rather have a unicorn. Or were you meaning that homosexuality has become something other than what homosexuality was . .. . between the 1950's and now? Has the term fundamentally changed in meaning? Is an apple now a brown skinned tubar that is cut into strips, fried and often served next to burgers or fish?

I am not asking for proof that being gay is not the norm. I know that there are more straight people than gay people. I am asking for proof that it is an illness.
So, stop dodging the actual question and answer it. Prove your claim that homosexuality is a mental illness.

 

[Macx]

It was listed as a paraphilia in the DSM. It has therefore been classified as a paraphilia. Removal from the list, if it has not changed, is meaningless. If homosexuality no longer involves people of the same sex having sexual relations. . . . then you have a point. What is homosexuality if it is not that?

 

[crawdadr]

Practicing homosexuallity is a sin. Being a homosexual is not a sin. This issue has been covered by the Bible, Church Fathers, and Tradition and all three agree. The fact that there are still Christians that believe differant still baffels me.


P.S. Homosexuality is not a mental illness and aids is not a "Gay" disease. Come folks stop giving people amunition.

 

[SithDoughnut]

It was listed as a paraphilia in the DSM. It has therefore been classified as a paraphilia. Removal from the list, if it has not changed, is meaningless.

Yeah, this is the claim I want proof for. It was removed from the DSM meaning that those who removed it from the DSM did not believe it belongs there, yet you claim that it does. As a result, evidence is required to prove your point.

If homosexuality no longer involves people of the same sex having sexual relations. . . . then you have a point. What is homosexuality if it is not that?

It's a sexual attraction - the relations themselves are not required.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Again, on the issue of sin and homosexuality, it doesn't matter what people think or want - ZERO. Statistics, theories, labels, tags, semantics games, and all other things of men also mean ZERO.

God and His Word are the sole authorities, and He is blunt and clear on this issue.

If you don't recognize God and His Word as authorities, the discussion then would not be about sin, rather about the desires and morals of men.

====================

Genesis 18:19-23 KJV For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. 22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. 23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

Genesis 18:19-23 AMP For I have known (chosen, acknowledged) him [as My own], so that he may teach and command his children and the sons of his house after him to keep the way of the Lord and to do what is just and righteous, so that the Lord may bring Abraham what He has promised him. 20 And the Lord said, Because the shriek [of the sins] of Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is exceedingly grievous, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether [as vilely and wickedly] as is the cry of it which has come to Me; and if not, I will know. 22 Now the [two] men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord. 23 And Abraham came close and said, Will You destroy the righteous (those upright and in right standing with God) together with the wicked?

====================

Genesis 19:4-7 KJV But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: 5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Genesis 19:4-7 AMP But before they lay down, the men of the city of Sodom, both young and old, all the men from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said, Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know (be intimate with) them. 6 And Lot went out of the door to the men and shut the door after him 7 And said, I beg of you, my brothers, do not behave so wickedly.

====================

Leviticus 18:22-25 KJV Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. 24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

Leviticus 18:22-25 AMP You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination. [I Cor. 6:9, 10.] 23 Neither shall you lie with any beast and defile yourself with it; neither shall any woman yield herself to a beast to lie with it; it is confusion, perversion, and degradedly carnal. 24 Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, for in all these things the nations are defiled which I am casting out before you. 25 And the land is defiled; therefore I visit the iniquity of it upon it, and the land itself vomits out her inhabitants.

====================

Leviticus 20:13 KJV If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:13 AMP If a man lies with a male as if he were a woman, both men have committed an offense (something perverse, unnatural, abhorrent, and detestable); they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

====================

Romans 1:22-28 KJV Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Romans 1:22-28 AMP Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves]. 23 And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin], 25 Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen (so be it). [Jer. 2:11.] 26 For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one, 27 And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another--men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing and going astray, which was [their] fitting retribution. 28 And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome,

===================

1 Corinthians 6:9 KJV Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 Corinthians 6:9 AMP Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,

====================

Ephesians 4:18-19 KJV Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Ephesians 4:18-19 AMP Their moral understanding is darkened and their reasoning is beclouded. [They are] alienated (estranged, self-banished) from the life of God [with no share in it; this is] because of the ignorance (the want of knowledge and perception, the willful blindness) that is deep-seated in them, due to their hardness of heart [to the insensitiveness of their moral nature]. 19 In their spiritual apathy they have become callous and past feeling and reckless and have abandoned themselves [a prey] to unbridled sensuality, eager and greedy to indulge in every form of impurity [that their depraved desires may suggest and demand].

====================

Ephesians 5:11-12 KJV And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

Ephesians 5:11-12 AMP Take no part in and have no fellowship with the fruitless deeds and enterprises of darkness, but instead [let your lives be so in contrast as to] expose and reprove and convict them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of or mention the things that [such people] practice in secret.

====================

1 Timothy 1:9-10 KJV Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1 Timothy 1:9-10 AMP Knowing and understanding this: that the Law is not enacted for the righteous (the upright and just, who are in right standing with God), but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinful, for the irreverent and profane, for those who strike and beat and [even] murder fathers and strike and beat and [even] murder mothers, for manslayers, 10 [For] impure and immoral persons, those who abuse themselves with men, kidnapers, liars, perjurers--and whatever else is opposed to wholesome teaching and sound doctrine

====================

Jude 1:6-10 KJV And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jude 1:6-10 AMP And angels who did not keep (care for, guard, and hold to) their own first place of power but abandoned their proper dwelling place--these He has reserved in custody in eternal chains (bonds) under the thick gloom of utter darkness until the judgment and doom of the great day. 7 [The wicked are sentenced to suffer] just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent towns--which likewise gave themselves over to impurity and indulged in unnatural vice and sensual perversity--are laid out [in plain sight] as an exhibit of perpetual punishment [to warn] of everlasting fire. [ Gen. 19.] 8 Nevertheless in like manner, these dreamers also corrupt the body, scorn and reject authority and government, and revile and libel and scoff at [heavenly] glories (the glorious ones). 9 But when [even] the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, judicially argued (disputed) about the body of Moses, he dared not [presume to] bring an abusive condemnation against him, but [simply] said, The Lord rebuke you! [Zech. 3:2.] 10 But these men revile (scoff and sneer at) anything they do not happen to be acquainted with and do not understand; and whatever they do understand physically [that which they know by mere instinct], like irrational beasts--by these they corrupt themselves and are destroyed (perish).

====================

Been addressed already.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7464034-4/#post54625904
http://www.christianforums.com/t7464034-4/#post54625924



Repeating a rant doesn’t make it true

 

[BigBadWlf]

You don't seem interested in sensible arguments.

You haven’t presented any

You asked for proof I gave you proof.

No you made outlandish and unsupported clams…claims that run contrary to basic facts

You asked for a study I gave you a study.

No you didn’t… if you really are a mental health professional you would know what a study is and what it is not.

You want to make believe that homosexuality is normal, okay. You can do that, but at the end of the day, it is still make believe.

Homosexuality is as normal as being left-handed or having blue eyes.

You keep trying to falsely claim that homosexuality is a mental illness and when asked to back up your claims you post population statistics and get huffy when people call you out on your misdirection

Me personally, I'd rather have a unicorn. Or were you meaning that homosexuality has become something other than what homosexuality was . .. . between the 1950's and now? Has the term fundamentally changed in meaning? Is an apple now a brown skinned tubar that is cut into strips, fried and often served next to burgers or fish?

How have manic episodes changed from what they were in the 1890’s (back then they were the result of a woman’s misfortune of having a uterus.)?

 

[BigBadWlf]

As a mental health professional I agree that it isn't currently listed in the DSM.

What exactly is your post-graduate degree in and what licensure do you possess?

 

[BigBadWlf]

It was listed as a paraphilia in the DSM. It has therefore been classified as a paraphilia. Removal from the list, if it has not changed, is meaningless. If homosexuality no longer involves people of the same sex having sexual relations. . . . then you have a point. What is homosexuality if it is not that?

It does not meet the criteria for a pariphilia

 

[Macx]

It does not meet the criteria for a pariphilia

In what way? Is it not a preference for non-normative sexual activity which causes social problems and distress in the person with the paraphilia or those related to them? That being pretty much the sum total of the criteria for being a paraphilia. . . you must have something more significant than it isn't listed as a separate paraphilia anymore but now falls under paraphilia NOS er, being a paraphilia on the list vs. a paraphilia NOS doesn't make it or break it as far as meeting the criteria.

 

[Maren]

In what way? Is it not a preference for non-normative sexual activity which causes social problems and distress in the person with the paraphilia or those related to them? That being pretty much the sum total of the criteria for being a paraphilia. . . you must have something more significant than it isn't listed as a separate paraphilia anymore but now falls under paraphilia NOS er, being a paraphilia on the list vs. a paraphilia NOS doesn't make it or break it as far as meeting the criteria.

I addressed this in a previous post and find it sad you are repeating this misleading claim. You are leaving a key point out of the Wiki definition, "A paraphilia is a condition involving sex fetishes where a person's sexual arousal and gratification depend on fantasizing about, and engaging in, sexual behavior that is atypical and extreme." Your problem is that homosexuality, while atypical, is not extreme.

Or, to use a better definition from the American Journal of Psychiatry,

"recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors generally involving:

1. nonhuman objects, or
2. the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner, or
3. children, or
4. nonconsenting persons

Homosexuality definitely does not fit in this definition.

And as for your question, "Is it not a preference for non-normative sexual activity...?" The answer to that would be largely "no" -- though it to some degree depends on how tightly define "normative". The truth is that the sexual activity done by most homosexuals is also done by many/most heterosexuals (depending on the exact sexual activity). The difference is not the sexual activity but who they perform the activity with, who they are attracted to -- and that is not in the definition of paraphilia.

 

[Macx]

I addressed this in a previous post and find it sad you are repeating this misleading claim. You are leaving a key point out of the Wiki definition, "A paraphilia is a condition involving sex fetishes where a person's sexual arousal and gratification depend on fantasizing about, and engaging in, sexual behavior that is atypical and extreme." Your problem is that homosexuality, while atypical, is not extreme.

Well, you failed to adress the topic acurately before & apparently continue. Not my problem.

Or, to use a better definition from the American Journal of Psychiatry,
[/list]Homosexuality definitely does not fit in this definition.

And as for your question, "Is it not a preference for non-normative sexual activity...?" The answer to that would be largely "no" -- though it to some degree depends on how tightly define "normative". The truth is that the sexual activity done by most homosexuals is also done by many/most heterosexuals (depending on the exact sexual activity). The difference is not the sexual activity but who they perform the activity with, who they are attracted to -- and that is not in the definition of paraphilia.

Why just use the portion of the definition that suits your position? Why not use the whole definition? Because it shows me to be right In the list of specified paraphilias, how many of them involve a fetish for a specific type of partner? Abasiophilia, Acrotomophilia, Andromimetophilia, Autoandrophilia, Autogynephilia (5 out of 12). .. and that is just the "A"s on the short list. Obviously choosing a same sex partner is a deviation from the norm, we know this because even the padded numbers from liberal (pro-gay) sources put homosexuals at less than 5% of the population. Moreover we know that choice of partner is in the definition of some paraphilias (like the 5 of 12 paraphilias on the short list starting with "A"). Andromimetophilia for example is nothing other than the paraphilia of prefering Female-to-male transsexuals. So anyway .. . Homosexuality = Paraphilia NOS. No big deal, ready to move on.

 

[Maren]

Well, you failed to adress the topic acurately before & apparently continue. Not my problem.



Why just use the portion of the definition that suits your position? Why not use the whole definition? Because it shows me to be right In the list of specified paraphilias, how many of them involve a fetish for a specific type of partner? Abasiophilia, Acrotomophilia, Andromimetophilia, Autoandrophilia, Autogynephilia (5 out of 12). .. and that is just the "A"s on the short list. Obviously choosing a same sex partner is a deviation from the norm, we know this because even the padded numbers from liberal (pro-gay) sources put homosexuals at less than 5% of the population. Moreover we know that choice of partner is in the definition of some paraphilias (like the 5 of 12 paraphilias on the short list starting with "A"). Andromimetophilia for example is nothing other than the paraphilia of prefering Female-to-male transsexuals. So anyway .. . Homosexuality = Paraphilia NOS. No big deal, ready to move on.

So you only address one point (one not even in the initial post) and ignore the other two. It's worth noting that I'm not even talking about a paraphilia at that point, other than to answer your question. Note how I start that paragraph with, "And as for your question" -- you're the one who made that statement and I'm just pointing out how the question was slanted (like most of your argument).