Is Grandma in Heaven?

[Bob Crowley]

... I'm Catholic, but not a good enough Catholic to know the Catechism so well. The issue is clearly addressed and informative so thanks for pointing it out..

... I'm also not very smart, so one read won't be enough for me ...

I think you're a bit more intelligent than you give yourself credit for. Your literary skills are quite good for a start.

I wouldn't say I know the catechism well, although I do have a copy on my book shelf and have read it through (not light reading, but at least it's logically presented).

But the easy way to find a Catechism reference or topic is just to use the web eg. Google "Catholic Catechism final judgement" or "Catholic Catechism .. Purgatory" or "C.. C.. Mary" or "C.. C.. Saints" etc.

The numbers that are inserted in the text refer to other relevant numbered paragraphs within in the catechism.

I think the Final Judgement will serve a couple of purposes - first it will demonstrate to all of us that God is absolutely just in an overwhelming manner, and second it will make clear to all of us where we fitted or didn't fit into God's plan ie. if we cooperated or not.

It will also make clear His power, although if someone's already been in Hell for a few centuries, I think they'd be aware of that already. One of the things that modern man doesn't consider is His power - He created this universe out of nothing (and it still adds up to nothing - sum zero energy universe), including such trivia as black holes, billions of galaxies, tidal waves which wipe out nearly 300,000 people in a matter of hours, volcanoes like Krakatoa, earthquakes, hurricanes, cyclones, exploding stars etc.

And they think they're going to judge HIM when they die.

 

[Hanging by a Thread]

I think you're a bit more intelligent than you give yourself credit for. Your literary skills are quite good for a start.

I wouldn't say I know the catechism well, although I do have a copy on my book shelf and have read it through (not light reading, but at least it's logically presented).

But the easy way to find a Catechism reference or topic is just to use the web eg. Google "Catholic Catechism final judgement" or "Catholic Catechism .. Purgatory" or "C.. C.. Mary" or "C.. C.. Saints" etc.

The numbers that are inserted in the text refer to other relevant numbered paragraphs within in the catechism.

thanks for the kind words,Bob.
Heh-heh. Not light reading indeed. I do remember pulling up the full catechism on the internet once, and thinking, "nope, won't have enough time for this". Although I've read it all the way through a couple of times in my life, I'm spending most of my religious reading time on digging through the Bible once again (not a light read, either.. also not a short story lol). You make a good suggestion in referring to the catechism via a specific topic. Thanks.

 

[Hanging by a Thread]

I think you're a bit more intelligent than you give yourself credit for. Your literary skills are quite good for a start.

I wouldn't say I know the catechism well, although I do have a copy on my book shelf and have read it through (not light reading, but at least it's logically presented).

But the easy way to find a Catechism reference or topic is just to use the web eg. Google "Catholic Catechism final judgement" or "Catholic Catechism .. Purgatory" or "C.. C.. Mary" or "C.. C.. Saints" etc.

The numbers that are inserted in the text refer to other relevant numbered paragraphs within in the catechism.

I think the Final Judgement will serve a couple of purposes - first it will demonstrate to all of us that God is absolutely just in an overwhelming manner, and second it will make clear to all of us where we fitted or didn't fit into God's plan ie. if we cooperated or not.

It will also make clear His power, although if someone's already been in Hell for a few centuries, I think they'd be aware of that already. One of the things that modern man doesn't consider is His power - He created this universe out of nothing (and it still adds up to nothing - sum zero energy universe), including such trivia as black holes, billions of galaxies, tidal waves which wipe out nearly 300,000 people in a matter of hours, volcanoes like Krakatoa, earthquakes, hurricanes, cyclones, exploding stars etc.

And they think they're going to judge HIM when they die.

I must've overlooked the last three paragraphs when I first replied, Bob. Unless you added them later. I understand that at this point, we can only offer opinions. And I respect what your saying and appreciate that your willing to offer yours. But to me, this still seems to render the Final Judgement as redundant (hope God doesn't consider this blasphemous) and you kinda lean that way with your comment about someone who's already in hell. Unless you mean (by your comment about where we fit into God's plan) that their will be some type of hierarchy established upon Final Judgement. That if say, you did better for God in life than most others you get to sit at the head of the class, so to speak.

 

[psalmbody]

I always used to wonder about this as a child, because it says on judgement day that he’ll judge the living and the dead, implying that they are still to be judged. I don’t think that God leaves people in sort of an asleep way, like their souls are sleeping or something. But as silly as this sounds I think they’re in a waiting room, Heaven’s foyer if you will. I think this because every time one of my grandparents died, they would start mumbling about angels on their death beds and looking hopeful instead of fearful of what’s to come. So to me they aren’t in heaven yet, but waiting for judgement day.

 

[The Liturgist]

While Scripture doesn't talk a lot about it, it very much does speak of our time between death and resurrection as being with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8).

It's good to recognize that the principle focus of Scripture--and indeed, of the entire historical teaching and confession of the Christian Church since the beginning--is that there is the future bodily resurrection of the dead and life everlasting in the Age to Come, with the renewal of all creation; it isn't as though between death and resurrection there is simply some kind of non-existence. We very much do continue to exist between death and resurrection. In the Apocalypse of St. John he writes about seeing the souls of the martyrs before God in heaven, when Jesus speaks about Gehenna and Paradise He is talking about the abodes of the dead in Hades/She'ol. So when He says to the thief, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise" He is telling the thief that he will be counted among the righteous, and found in the place of the righteous dead.

So while Scripture doesn't have a lot to say about the "afterlife", it's not as though Scripture has nothing to say. It's just that it's not all that important in the larger picture. Yes, between death and resurrection we will be with the Lord. Think of it as a foretaste of what is to come.

-CryptoLutheran

This is exactly the correct doctrine. I really love your posts, and I agree with all of your content except for some very minor doctrinal positions where you adhere to orthodox Lutheran theology and I am drawn to Syro-Byzantine and Alexandrian theology.

 

[The Liturgist]

Eternal life doesn't start after we die it begins when we accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour over our life. Like Jesus says We cross over from death to life.

So yes if your grand mother believed in Jesus she is with Jesus right now.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Actually, I would say it begins when we are baptized with Christ, because in that moment we are born again unto life everlasting. I also agree with the Eastern theological view that in Baptism we are mystically present with Christ in the Jordan in 27-30 AD, at the Theophany, since we are baptized with Christ and not apart from Him, just as in the Eucharist we are mystically present at the Last Supper.

So there is in my view really only one Eucharist, and I interpret the comfession of one baptism for the remission of sins in the Nicene Creed in the most literal way possible, in that in my view there has also been one baptism, and we join Christ at the Last Supper and are baptized with Him in the Jordan.

This is an extreme view in line with Greek, Coptic and Syrian theologians, but it is also strictly Biblical, based on a literal Antiochene interpretation of Corinthians 10-11 and Galatians 3:27.

I tend to favor the Antiochene historical-literal method of exegesis when reading the New Testament and the Alexandrian typological-prophetic-allegorical method when reading the Old Testament.

Based on an Antiochene interpretation of the New Testament, we can also positively assert the existence of Heaven based on the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, the teaching of our Lord concerning Abraham’s Bosom, and so on, and differentiate between Heaven and Hades as temporal states and the Lake of Fire and the World to Come as eschatological states. Our hope as Christians is through salvific faith in Jesus, we might be transformed by the Holy Spirit, through theosis, so as to dwell with Him in Heaven and be counted among the righteous on the Last Day, when Christ Pantocrator will sit on the dread judgement seat and separate the righteous from those damned to the lake of fire. Which me might further hope are small in number, consisting of those few people who give themselves over to evil in the same way the Christian seeks to give himself over to divine goodness and mercy. Ultimately, it is solely up to Christ who is saved and who is not; just as the name of God means “I am that I am”, our Lord promises “I will have mercy on who I will have mercy.”

 

[coffee4u]

At funerals they say “She’s in a better place now”. But what I find in the Bible is that Jesus is coming back to judge the living and the Dead. And as far as I know, we’re all still waiting, so judgment day has yet to occur. So where’s Grandma?

(Please no responses regarding Grandma’s judgment. That’s not the intent of the question. For the sake of this post, let’s assume Grandma has met the requirements to get into heaven)

Heaven.
The final destination is the new earth.
2 Peter 3:13
But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
Heaven is like the waiting room for Christians.

 

[The Liturgist]

Heaven.
The final destination is the new earth.
2 Peter 3:13
But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
Heaven is like the waiting room for Christians.

Still its one rather nice waiting room. Less like what you might find at your accountants office and more along the lines of the First Class lounge on Emirates or Swiss, the sort of lounge with all you can eat caviar and bedrooms to sleep in between flights.

I of course am joking; unlike Islam we believe Heaven is devoid of mere carnal pleasures, but instead is a realm of joyous union with God.

 

[mlepfitjw]

thanks for the reply, Agallagher.
forgive me, but I'm not sure I'm completely understanding your post (I'm not all that smart, so it sometimes takes a while to get through to me).
Here's what I'm gathering from your post:
1)That the second coming has already occured. I don't find that to be all that ridiculous (not saying that's what I believe,but I don't rule it out). In fact, I think there're several sections of the Bible that would imply that Jesus or God's instructions were meant only for the current generation being addressed. There's a quote from Jesus that comes to mind, but I don't have it front of me. Something along the lines of "this generation will not pass before all these things take place".
2) That grandma, having met the requirements is already in Heaven.
3) I don't know what is meant by "outside of the heavenly Jerusalem" but my guess is that this is hell.
4) My interpretation of your post could be completely off the mark.

You are smart enough how to turn a computer on and type words. Your first 1) yes, that is what I believe. Your 2) Yes, she was a believer in God and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3) Outside the Heavenly Jerusalem is pretty much the land of darkness in a sense, all non-believers go here that desired nothing to do with God, God is just and fair for doing this for allowing the free will choice. 4) You did great in your understanding.

May the Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit, and grace upon you friend, take care.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thanks for the reply ViaCrusis.
So... some type of pergatory then? And I'm using the term pergatory loosely here. I'm not entirely sure of the definition and I'm afraid I might have seen somewhere that pergatory involves some type of suffering. That's not what I'm suggesting, but rather some type of place in waiting. Heh-heh, I dunno, maybe if that's the case there could be spirits among us.

Purgatory is more about a final sanctification of the soul prior to entering heaven, which isn't something I believe in. That said, in a sense heaven is a kind of "waiting room" between death and resurrection. So if one wants to draw a parallel in the sense of it's not the final stop on the journey, then yes.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[misput]

Ec 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

 

[Bob Crowley]

... I think this because every time one of my grandparents died, they would start mumbling about angels on their death beds and looking hopeful instead of fearful of what’s to come. ...

I think that's rather common. I remember visiting an uncle of mine (the same man who came to tell me my own father had died, but who died himself a few months later), and he said he could see "Grandma" "over there". He was sort of pointing towards the far side of the hospital ward.

At the time I wasn't a Christian and I thought he was hallucinating from the painkillers they'd given him, plus the effects of the cancer. But there was an eerie sense in the room.

I think angels come to take us when we did if we're going to heaven or purgatory. But if we're going to hell, I think demons turn up. They are, after all, fallen angels.

I claim to have the peculiar experience of my own father turning up in the bedroom of the unit I was living in on the night he died himself, despite not knowing where I was living. I didn't want him to know.

I still remember he looked a bit surprised himself as he started to materialise near the door. I assume he'd either asked, or been told, to apologise to me for the years of cruelty he'd inflicted, which is what his opening words were about. No sooner had he asked or been told than he found himself in my room, despite not knowing where I was. He died a good ten miles away. I didn't find out for another four days in the normal fashion as his body wasn't found for four days, and the above mentioned uncle turned up.

The end of the episode was when he gave this absolutely blood curdling scream, and then just vanished. It was obvious that something was coming for him.

So I don't have any illusions whatsoever that the "particular judgment" takes place immediately after death. In fact if I'd had the presence of mind to note the time, I think I could have given a very accurate time of death.

We had quite a conversation and I still remember most of it 42 years later as at January just gone.

The spiritual world is quite different to ours. They've only got to think about something, or be given their marching orders, and it happens immediately. Everything we do takes time - it's not that way for spiritual beings.

I'm not the only one by the way. An elderly lady I met via my last job told me something similar happened to her. Her husband had a brain embolism, and he only was being kept alive by machines. He was dying.

The hospital staff had already told her they were going to turn off the machines the next day, and if he couldn't breath, he'd die.

But that night something "white" sat on the end of the bed. She said she was freaking out, and wondered what the hell was going on! But then it spoke and she immediately knew the voice. It was her husband and he'd come to apologise for the way he'd treated her.

Interestingly, their eldest daughter had the very same experience. Apparently he'd been very abusive to her as well, far more so than the other children.

So he was sent to apologise to both of them. Obviously he'd died that night before they got around to turning off the machines.

I don't know how the episode ended, and I don't think it was as dramatic as my experience with my father screaming his spiritual head off about six feet away and then disappearing into eternity. But it was still similar.

Our personal judgement takes place immediately after death. No question.

PS - Our of sheer curiosity I checked the distance from the unit where my father died to where I was living at the time. Both buildings still exist as far as I know.

According to Google Maps, it would have taken about 21 minutes and 17.5km by road, via what we call the M7 (tunnel) and the Airport Link (also via a tunnel), neither of which existed back then, so it would have been further and taken longer in those days. It was probably about 16kms in a straight line or thereabouts, which is close to 10 miles.

He found himself in my room immediately but he didn't know where I lived, as I'd made of point of not telling him. I loathed him. And amongst the things he said was "Son, you have to forgive me! ... If you don't you'll destroy yourself!"

 

[rockytopva]

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; - Luke 16:22

I would say that there are many bosoms in the afterlife according to the congregation and the generation. If your grandmother was in congregation with good Methodist, for example, I would look for her to have been gathered with her people.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I always used to wonder about this as a child, because it says on judgement day that he’ll judge the living and the dead, implying that they are still to be judged. I don’t think that God leaves people in sort of an asleep way, like their souls are sleeping or something. But as silly as this sounds I think they’re in a waiting room, Heaven’s foyer if you will. I think this because every time one of my grandparents died, they would start mumbling about angels on their death beds and looking hopeful instead of fearful of what’s to come. So to me they aren’t in heaven yet, but waiting for judgement day.

You're not the only one.

They see dead people — apparently, lots of people do.

"I've seen patients sit there and have a conversation in front of me with someone I couldn't see," said Melissa Brestensky, a nurse in the Cabot Inpatient Unit of Good Samaritan Hospice in Butler County. "I had one particular patient — it was hours later she passed away — she was describing the angels out in the hallway, saying, 'Look at how beautiful they are, they're in beautiful white gowns.' "

 

[Aussie Pete]

Thanks for the reply, Aussie.
Ok, so you think based on the story of Lazarus that Heaven or Hell is immediate. I won't argue with that because I'm a bit confused on what the correct answer would be. Others may think differently because the Bible seems to indicate Judgment for entry into heaven will occur when Jesus returns. And as far as Grandma is concerned, I don't think we need to worry about her having to wait around if that's the case. Because, yeah, time means nothing in heaven- a thousand years is a small percentage of eternity. But here on earth, a day is not like a thousand years. A day is like a day. So I'm wondering if today it's accurate to say Grandma is in heaven now, maybe even looking down upon us, maybe even interceding on our behalf. It seems these are some of the things we cling to as we greive, but is this substantiated?

A dear friend and mentor passed away about 10 years ago. He was a huge part of my life for 30 years. His wife rang me at work and told me that he was sleeping and she could not wake him up. I knew that he was gone. I had a knowing in my heart that his time was close and so did he.

When I came to their home, she was calm and collected, offering to make coffee for the ambulance crew and police who attended. She had a little cry and then got on with life, rejoicing in the fact that her beloved was in heaven and grateful for the wonderful marriage that she'd had. I've never seen anything like it before or since.

We talk about Ivor often, remembering his influence and teaching that gave us a great foundation in Christ. We have no tears, no grieving and no regrets. I made sure of that when his widow began to rebuke herself for not being a better wife. We know he is in heaven and that is our comfort. Grieving achieves nothing.

 

[RaymondG]

At funerals they say “She’s in a better place now”. But what I find in the Bible is that Jesus is coming back to judge the living and the Dead. And as far as I know, we’re all still waiting, so judgment day has yet to occur. So where’s Grandma?

(Please no responses regarding Grandma’s judgment. That’s not the intent of the question. For the sake of this post, let’s assume Grandma has met the requirements to get into heaven)

I believe that heaven is obtainable now.....and after you obtain it, you pass from death to life.....never to die again.

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Therefore, even though it may appear to us, that one has died, they, themselves, have not experienced death....and are living as they were before...

For those who have not obtained heaven in this life....the story is a little different....but, base on your OP, this case does not apply, so I wont waste time on it.

 

[RaymondG]

Yep, no one knows for sure what happens after we die until we die. Yet, "what happens after we die" is one of, if not the only, foundation for Christianity.

Yes. Receiving instructions on how to get to heaven from those who have never gotten there themselves, is the definition of "The Blind leading the Blind." Yet so maybe are ok with this.

We would not get driving instruction from one who has never driven before....would not get surgery done by one who has never performed the surgery before....would not get on a plane with a pilot who have never flown...... Yet we easily put our eternal lives in the hands of those who have never experienced eternal life....

 

[1213]

At funerals they say “She’s in a better place now”. But what I find in the Bible is that Jesus is coming back to judge the living and the Dead. And as far as I know, we’re all still waiting, so judgment day has yet to occur. So where’s Grandma?...

I think she can be in paradise. And I believe it may be the other place where people wait for the judgment day. The other place is Hades.

Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
Luke 23:43

 

[Kilk1]

At funerals they say “She’s in a better place now”. But what I find in the Bible is that Jesus is coming back to judge the living and the Dead. And as far as I know, we’re all still waiting, so judgment day has yet to occur. So where’s Grandma?

(Please no responses regarding Grandma’s judgment. That’s not the intent of the question. For the sake of this post, let’s assume Grandma has met the requirements to get into heaven)

From what I've been able to tell, the spirits of the dead prior to the Second Coming go to Hades, the place of the dead. Some translations render Hades as "hell," but Hades itself seems to be neutral, separated into two places for the saved and unsaved. This is what I get from Luke 16:19-31.

At the Second Coming, the bodies of the dead are raised (suggesting the spirits are reunited with their bodies) and then go to heaven or hell (John 5:28-29). This is how I've understood it, anyway.

 

[Hanging by a Thread]

I always used to wonder about this as a child, because it says on judgement day that he’ll judge the living and the dead, implying that they are still to be judged. I don’t think that God leaves people in sort of an asleep way, like their souls are sleeping or something. But as silly as this sounds I think they’re in a waiting room, Heaven’s foyer if you will. I think this because every time one of my grandparents died, they would start mumbling about angels on their death beds and looking hopeful instead of fearful of what’s to come. So to me they aren’t in heaven yet, but waiting for judgement day.

thanks for the reply, psalmbody.
Doesn't sound silly. None of us can say for sure. You have to die to find out, and nobody has ever come back from death to tell us about it. Well, except for one person, but he didn't say much about this particular topic.