Devin P

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I keep hearing people say God loves unconditionally and i don't get it.
There are conditions involved!

Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. That is a condition.
Belief is a condition. If they don't believe they are condemned already.
God pours out wrath on unbelievers! This sounds like a condition!

So, how does this teaching get so popular? Am i missing something?

here are a few verses on how the Lord is said to hate or abhor people.

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 5:5 (KJV)

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psalms 11:5 (KJV)

The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
Proverbs 15:9 (KJV)

All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
Hosea 9:15 (KJV)

Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Psalms 5:6 (KJV)

For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
Psalms 10:3 (KJV)

Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.
Psalms 106:40 (KJV)

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Thessalonians 1:8 (KJV)
I agree that there are conditions for sure. God hates certain people. He hates those living in sin. He hated Esau before he was born, because He knew what type of person he would become.

Anyone living in sin intentionally, he hates. Anyone that rejects His truth, He hates. It pleases Him to punish them, there's biblical proof of this everywhere. People reject this truth, and replace the idea that He loves unconditionally, because one of two reasons.

1. They just simply aren't aware, and have been taught this.
2. Or, they don't want to change the way they live to walk in obedience to God.
 
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Devin P

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There is nothing you could ever do, or have ever done, that would stop Him from being what He is, & loving you.
Except rejecting Jesus, leading people astray, worshipping other "gods", killing another person, committing adultery, sexual immorality and many, many other things. He is love, but He is also judgement, and wrath. He is love, but He's just first. There's several verses that talk about people that He hates, because He does hate people. He wishes and desires that all are saved, but not all will listen to Him, or accept Him, and those, He hates. He wishes they would turn from their wicked ways so that they might live, but not all will unfortunately.
 
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mkgal1

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He is love, but He's just first
Where does this idea come from? I recall the message being "if we don't have love we are nothing " and "the greatest of these is love". I don't recall a passage that implies that justice is the Royal law (and what sort of justice are you even referring to?)

Also...take a look at Revelations where the letters to the 7 churches are written about. Isn't love supreme there as well?
 
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Devin P

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Where does this idea come from? I recall the message being "if we don't have love we are nothing " and "the greatest of these is love". I don't recall a passage that implies that justice is the Royal law (and what sort of justice are you even referring to?)

Also...take a look a Revelations where the letters to the 7 churches are written about. Isn't love supreme there as well?
Well, all throughout the bible, we see a loving God, sure, but we also see a just God. He isn't just all love, candy canes and rainbows. He's judgement as well. What happens to those that don't accept Him, and don't repent? They burn in the fire. He has done everything in His power to warn us, to be patient with us, and to instruct us in the ways of righteousness, but if we reject Him, there's nothing He can do. He will judge us, and His judgement will end in us taking part in the second death. That second death, is eternal. Will He not judge everyone in the end of times?

You can't just read the NT and call it good, we have to read the OT just as much as the NT. Without a great understanding of the OT, we will miss more than we'll get out of the NT. All of the NT, is quoting from the OT. The OT was the only scripture that the writers of the NT had. They had no scriptures apart from the OT.

That, and about the 7 churches, do you not recall how many times Jesus told certain churches to repent? They started going back to their old ways, and He said that unless they repent, then He'd come upon them quickly and without warning, and they'd be lost. He said repent to several of the churches. Repent from what? 1 John 3:4 tells us from what. The fact that sin, is only described as one thing: The transgression of God's law. We are to repent from breaking God's law. Yes, the point of the law is love, but love doesn't mean that we cast away all righteousness. We are to love God first, and in loving God, we will do our best to uphold His law. The law of God, when you read it, is truly about love. There's a law in exodus, that goes along the lines of "if you see your enemy's ox that has wandered off, you are to return it to him". That's entirely about love. Someone who hates you, and you do good to them. That's beautiful, and it's truth.

Are we to be saved by keeping the law? No, we're saved by faith, but that faith requires works. Without works, faith is dead and is pointless. If I say I believe in God, but nothing in my life reflects that, then who cares what I say, my actions prove me a liar.
 
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mkgal1

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Well, all throughout the bible, we see a loving God, sure, but we also see a just God. He isn't just all love, candy canes and rainbows. He's judgement as well.
We'll wait for you to actually read through the posts....then you'll see that not one post is suggesting anything like that (candy canes and rainbows).
 
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Denadii

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This is where I was hung up for years (and, as an animal lover, I really had to sort of ignore this part of Christian theology). Sacrifices :(

When I heard the theology of St Francis of Assisi (more completely.....I grew up attending Catholic school, so I was basically aware of St Francis)....it all sort of came together for me.

This is what I believe (and, to be honest, this theology tore down the wall between me and God....where I was perceiving Him to be a blood-thirsty animal killer...but ignoring it and burying those thoughts). This makes so much more sense to me!

----------->In Leviticus 16 we see the brilliant ritualization of what we now call scapegoating, and we should indeed feel sorry for the demonized goat. On the Day of Atonement, a priest laid hands on an “escaping” goat, placing all the sins of the Jewish people from the previous year onto the animal. Then the goat was beaten with reeds and thorns, and driven out into the desert. And the people went home rejoicing, just as European Christians did after burning a supposed heretic at the stake or American whites did after the lynching of black men. Whenever the “sinner” is excluded, our ego is delighted and feels relieved and safe. It sort of works, but only for a while. Usually the illusion only deepens and becomes catatonic, blind, and repetitive—because of course, scapegoating did not really work to eliminate the evil in the first place.

Jesus came to radically undo this illusory scapegoat mechanism, which is found in every culture in some form. He became the scapegoat to reveal the universal lie of scapegoating. Note that John the Baptist said, “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin [singular] of the world” (John 1:29). It seems “the sin of the world” is ignorant killing, hatred, and fear. As Blaise Pascal so insightfully wrote, “People never do evil so completely and so cheerfully as when they do it with a religious conviction.” [2] We see this in much of the United States in our own time, with churches on every corner.

The Gospel is a highly subversive document. It painstakingly illustrates how the systems of both church and state (Caiaphas and Pilate) conspired to condemn Jesus. Throughout most of history, church and state have sought plausible scapegoats to carry their own shame and guilt. So Jesus became the sinned-against one to reveal the hidden nature of scapegoating, and we would forever see how wrong power can be—even religious power! (See John 16:8-11 and Romans 8:3.) Finally Jesus says from the cross: “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they’re doing” (Luke 23:34). The scapegoat mechanism largely operates in the unconscious; people do not know what they are doing. Scapegoaters do not know they are scapegoating, but they think they are doing a “holy duty for God” (John 16:2). You see why inner work, shadow work, and honest self-knowledge are all essential to any healthy religion.
https://cac.org/jesus-reveals-lie-scapegoating-2016-10-13/[end]

Now verses like this make so much more of a positive impact:

And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.~Luke 12:7

I can now imagine God more like this:

ac33aa92a2ddf096a6e8872058d5de98--artists-websites-christian-paintings.jpg

and:

c97af7732510665b32b489c5aaeded8e--pictures-of-jesus-christ-painter-artist.jpg


.
...instead of Him requiring that the throat of innocent animals be slit so He can be satisfied.
The penalty of sin is death...God used animals so that the Old Covenant folks wouldn't have to die. Then Jesus himself died on the cross so that you wouldn't have to die. It was not He that He was satisfying. It was the curse of sin... 'God is not willing that any should die....but we chose to sin and the penalty has to be paid.....That's love and mercy folks!
 
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Devin P

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We'll wait for you to actually read through the posts....then you'll see that not one post is suggesting anything like that (candy canes and rainbows).
You asked where the idea that He's just before He's loving come from - it comes from the fact that everywhere all throughout scripture He's like "repent, and I will bless you." He wants to bless us, but He can't until after we've repented. No one said anything about candy canes and rainbows, that was an analogy for what seemed as if you were thinking that He wasn't also judgement. He's not just love, He's judgement as well.
 
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mkgal1

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No one said anything about candy canes and rainbows, that was an analogy for what seemed as if you were thinking that He wasn't also judgement. He's not just love, He's judgement as well.
See what I quoted in post #65. That's completely different than what anyone is suggesting.**I get that it's an analogy...and not literally candy canes and rainbows. It's still far off from what anyone has posted.
 
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ClementofA

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Except rejecting Jesus, leading people astray, worshipping other "gods", killing another person, committing adultery, sexual immorality and many, many other things.

None of those things will - ever - in this life or the next - stop the Lord Jesus, Love Omnipotent, from Loving anyone.

God is love. That's what He is & does. Always & ever.

Therefore it is unconditional toward other beings, humans & angels.

Even when He judges, is angry, punishes, or chastises. Like a perfect father toward his children, all this is "in love".

He loves others, no matter what they do.

IOW He has unconditional love.

There is nothing you could ever do, or have ever done, that would stop Him from being what He is, & loving you.



He is love, but He is also judgement, and wrath.

God is love.

Scripture - never - says He is judgement or wrath.

Judgement & wrath are things He uses - in His love - which motivates everything He is & does - to correct His created beings.

"When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

Job 5:17-18 “Behold, happy is the man whom God corrects; Therefore do not despise the chastening of the Almighty. For He bruises, but he binds up; He wounds, but His hands make whole.”

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.…(1 Cor.5:4-5)

Because I have sinned against him,
I will bear the LORD’s wrath,
until he pleads my case
and upholds my cause.
He will bring me out into the light;
I will see his righteousness.
(Micah 7:9)


He is love, but He's just first. There's several verses that talk about people that He hates, because He does hate people.

He hates the old man, the sinful nature, the flesh. When men follow that instead of seeking Love Eternal, He is angry with them, i.e. hates them, that which they identify with (the old man) for their own good. Compare:

"If anyone is coming to Me and is not hating his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, and still more his soul besides, he can not be My disciple." (Lk.14:26)

"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." (Mt.16:23)

He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. (Mt.10:39)

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Gal.5:24)

We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin. (Rom.6:6)

Ephesians 4:22
You were taught to put off your former way of life, your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;

Colossians 2:11
In Him you were also circumcised in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands.

Colossians 3:9
Do not lie to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices,

Merciful Truth : Does God Hate You, Sinner?

He wishes and desires that all are saved, but not all will listen to Him, or accept Him, and those, He hates. He wishes they would turn from their wicked ways so that they might live, but not all will unfortunately.

He is not so weak, impotent & failing. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Devin P

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None of those things will - ever - in this life or the next - stop the Lord Jesus, Love Omnipotent, from Loving anyone.

God is love. That's what He is & does. Always & ever.

Therefore it is unconditional toward other beings, humans & angels.

Even when He judges, is angry, punishes, or chastises. Like a perfect father toward his children, all this is "in love".

He loves others, no matter what they do.

IOW He has unconditional love.

There is nothing you could ever do, or have ever done, that would stop Him from being what He is, & loving you.





God is love.

Scripture - never - says He is judgement or wrath.

Judgement & wrath are things He uses - in His love - which motivates everything He is & does - to correct His created beings.

"When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

Job 5:17-18 “Behold, happy is the man whom God corrects; Therefore do not despise the chastening of the Almighty. For He bruises, but he binds up; He wounds, but His hands make whole.”

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.…(1 Cor.5:4-5)




He hates the old man, the sinful nature, the flesh. When men follow that instead of seeking Love Eternal, He is angry with them, i.e. hates them, that which they identify with (the old man) for their own good. Compare:

"If anyone is coming to Me and is not hating his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, and still more his soul besides, he can not be My disciple." (Lk.14:26)

"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." (Mt.16:23)

He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. (Mt.10:39)

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Gal.5:24)

We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin. (Rom.6:6)

Ephesians 4:22
You were taught to put off your former way of life, your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;

Colossians 2:11
In Him you were also circumcised in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands.

Colossians 3:9
Do not lie to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices,

Merciful Truth : Does God Hate You, Sinner?



He is not so weak, impotent & failing. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Malachi 1:2(partial)-3
“Wasn’t Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “I loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I hated. I turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the jackals in the desert.

Leviticus 20:23 -
'Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I will drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them.

Leviticus 26:30 -
'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you.

Psalm 5:5-6 -
The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.
You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

Deuteronomy 18:12 -
"For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you.

Psalm 11:5 -
The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates.

Jeremiah 12:8 -
"My inheritance has become to Me Like a lion in the forest; She has roared against Me; Therefore I have come to hate her.

Proverbs 28:9 - He who turns away his ear from listening to the law, Even his prayer is an abomination. (The most important one on this list)

Does God will that these men die? No. He says over and over again, that He wills all shall come to repent and be saved, but those that decline this offer, He hates, and destroys. To say that He doesn't hate anything or anyone, and that He's all love, is to reject scripture, for the tickling of your ears.

An abomination, is something that causes disgust, or hatred within someone. So, let's look at bible verses that talk about things that cause hatred to be within God towards someone.

Psalm 11:20 -
The perverse in heart are an abomination to the LORD, But the blameless in their walk are His delight.

Proverbs 16:5 -
Everyone who is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; Assuredly, he will not be unpunished.

Deuteronomy 22:5 -
"A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.

My point is, He hates those that don't submit to Him. He desires humility, He desires obedience, He desires that we practice walking in righteousness according to His instructions, even as He walked in righteousness, and the faith we have in Him, coupled with our desire to walk as He did, makes us righteous. Our faith, is perfected, in the changes His truth creates in our lives. Going from living lives of tradition, to truth. Ditching paganism, or atheism, and picking up the things He has told us to do since the beginning. Those that turn their ear away from His law, even their prayers are an abomination. Proverbs 28:9. I definitely think that He meets us where we're at. I once didn't realize how important what I've just said was, but thought at the time I was doing what He wanted me to. So, knowing that we have inherited lies, and that we don't know early on in our walk what truth looks like, I believe that He is merciful, and gives us the benefit of the doubt, waiting for us to seek Him enough that He can show us truth, so that we will be convicted enough to walk in it, regardless of what it results in. Whether it means it splits us apart from our families, causes us to have to leave a job, gets us ostracized, or even gets us killed. It's not supposed to be easy, but fortunately, it's not always as hard as I've described either.

















 
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ClementofA

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To say that He doesn't hate anything or anyone, and that He's all love, is to reject scripture, for the tickling of your ears.

I didn't say that, so why make the comment? Did you even read my post or this article:

Merciful Truth : Does God Hate You, Sinner?

As for tickling of ears:

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." (EO scholar David Bentley Hart) Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (NIV). 3-For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4-They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Lusts (or desires) would include the hateful, murderous kind, those attributed to the devil by the same Greek word here:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Groups such as the KKK, for example, attract such people with a lust for hate.

"Historically the KKK used terrorism, both physical assault and murder, against groups or individuals whom they opposed."

Gal.5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like...

The lusts, desires and works of the flesh include wrath, hatred, idolatry:

Jer. 7:30 "For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight," declares the LORD, "they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. 31"They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire,which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.

The lust of the flesh also includes those who delight in the thought they are special, better than others, or that others will roast in hell. They can't bear the thought that people like Hitler or tax collectors would ever be saved. In that regard, the Pharisees & their followers in Jesus' time come to mind. For various reasons the endless punishment fantasy appeals to a certain type of people and their hateful lusts.

Both sadistic & masochistic types would be attracted to the ECT teaching, including abusers, those who have been abused & feel they deserve it, etc.

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Such as the fable or myth of endless torments of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of "heretics", etc.

In contrast to the fables & myths of endless torments, Paul says again to Timothy:

1Tim.4:9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1Tim.2 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Grip Docility

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I keep hearing people say God loves unconditionally and i don't get it.
There are conditions involved!

Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. That is a condition.
Belief is a condition. If they don't believe they are condemned already.
God pours out wrath on unbelievers! This sounds like a condition!

So, how does this teaching get so popular? Am i missing something?

here are a few verses on how the Lord is said to hate or abhor people.

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 5:5 (KJV)

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psalms 11:5 (KJV)

The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
Proverbs 15:9 (KJV)

All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
Hosea 9:15 (KJV)

Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Psalms 5:6 (KJV)

For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
Psalms 10:3 (KJV)

Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.
Psalms 106:40 (KJV)

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Thessalonians 1:8 (KJV)

Re read the sermon on the mount... you’ve just made God a hypocrite....

Unintentionally... but... by Jesus’ own words on the mount... you have mocked Him with your understanding of God’s other words.
 
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thesunisout

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I keep hearing people say God loves unconditionally and i don't get it.
There are conditions involved!

Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. That is a condition.
Belief is a condition. If they don't believe they are condemned already.
God pours out wrath on unbelievers! This sounds like a condition!

So, how does this teaching get so popular? Am i missing something?

here are a few verses on how the Lord is said to hate or abhor people.

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 5:5 (KJV)

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psalms 11:5 (KJV)

The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
Proverbs 15:9 (KJV)

All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
Hosea 9:15 (KJV)

Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Psalms 5:6 (KJV)

For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
Psalms 10:3 (KJV)

Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.
Psalms 106:40 (KJV)

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Thessalonians 1:8 (KJV)

Salvation is conditional upon our believing in Jesus Christ. Gods love is unconditional; He loved us while we were still sinners.

Romans 5:8

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 4:18

We love him, because he first loved us
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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That's not how I understand it.

As it's already been posted: God planned to reconcile us to Him before the foundation of the earth.....He died for us *while* we were still sinners. He even asked forgiveness for the very ones that killed Him (Luke 23:34)

This passage seems to speak to the idolatrous ways in Gehenna....and how people have turned the True God into this monster god--Molech-- that is appeased by sacrifices of tortured humans. "Turning his grace into lasciviousness":


I don't believe the True God is anything like that (as this passage states):
They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!~Jeremiah 19:5
....yet some have made Him into *just* that--denying His love for His creation (and distorting it into something else)....and the ultimate gift of love He gave us in enduring the cross (to demonstrate His love--Romans 5:8).

First, it doesn't really matter what you or I believe about Him, if it doesn't match what He says about Himself. What matters is what is true about God--and it is more than picking a couple soundbite verses. He shares things in Scripture that clearly differ from what you want to believe about Him.

I know HE loves His creation; but that doesn't mean everyone in His creation is loved or kept. How about the flood of Noah's time where only Noah's family was saved? Lest you not believe the Genesis account, Peter links it with what will happen in the end (2 Pet 3:5-7). While Jesus and Stephen both asked the Father to forgive those who brought them to their earthly death, when Jesus prayed to the Father in John 17, He didn't ask for all, He asked for those God gave Him and those who would "believe on Me through their word."

There are plenty of passages that support that not everyone will remain in His love--including John 15, Rev 15:20, Romans 9, Romans 1, and 2 Thes 2, and many more. God looks at things very differently than we do. He has an eternal mindset.

BTW here is what Jeremiah 19:5-12 actually says and it leaves a very different message than the one verse you twisted to support your point:

"They have built also the high places of baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Therefore, behold, the days come, says the LORD, that this place shall no more be called tophet, nor the valley of the son of hinnom, but the valley of slaughter. And, I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth. And, I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passes thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues therof. And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them. Then, shalt thou break the bottle of in the sight of the men that go with thee, and shalt say unto them, thus says the LORD of hosts: Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again; and they shall bury them in tophet, til there be no place to bury. Thus will I do unto this place, says the LORD, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as tophet...." (Jeremiah 19:5-12)

When you read the better translation and full context of what God said: Who will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and daughters?
 
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Grip Docility

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Unconditional love with conditions doesn’t seem to add up.

If people could simply meet conditions, a Savior wouldn’t have been needed.
Christianity could just be another religion with … conditions. Any religion
will do, if it's just about meeting conditions.

-

Cha Ching! Exactly!!! People take God’s gift and then suggest it’s a Trojan hoarse of a purchase that comes with fine print.

A gift stops being a gift when the giver charges the receiver.

That... and...

“No power in the sky above or in the earth below--indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord“

Romans 8:39
 
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mkgal1

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God hates certain people.
No....He hates sin...not the people. By suggesting this....you're implying that Jesus--in the Sermon on the Mount--is holding us to a higher standard than God. As it's been repeated a few times already....that makes God a hypocrite.
 
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Devin P

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No....He hates sin...not the people. By suggesting this....you're implying that Jesus--in the Sermon on the Mount--is holding us to a higher standard than God. As it's been repeated a few times already....that makes God a hypocrite.
If the person desires their sin, He hates them.

Malachi 1:2(partial)-3
“Wasn’t Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “I loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I hated. I turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the jackals in the desert.

Leviticus 20:23 -
'Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I will drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them.

Leviticus 26:30 -
'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you.

Psalm 5:5-6 -
The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.
You destroy those who speak falsehood
; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

Although, as He says, He greatly desires that all come to repentance, and that all are saved, He knows that not all will. He desires to save them, but He can't save someone that doesn't want to be saved. Such a person, He hates. I don't know if all of the verses that say God hates certain people, if it's hatred hatred, or hatred in the sense that He has to be just, and punish them, and hate is the word described as that punishment. I do believe that He desires to save even those He hates, but because of their choices, He has no choice but to punish them. He definitely hates certain people though, otherwise He wouldn't outright say that He does.
 
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mkgal1

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God looks at things very differently than we do. He has an eternal mindset.
Absolutely! So why are you limiting Him?

I think Fr Richard Rohr does an excellent job of articulating this transformation over time we can see (or miss!) within the biblical text:

Fr Richard Rohr said:
The biblical revelation is inviting us into a new experience and a new way of seeing, and evolved human consciousness seems to be more ready to accept the divine invitation. (Sunday)

If the Risen Jesus is the full and trustworthy unveiling of the nature of God, then we live in a safe and love-filled universe. (Monday)

Love is the source and goal, faith is the slow process of getting there, and hope is the willingness to move forward without resolution and closure. And these are indeed, “the three things that last” (1 Corinthians 13:13). (Tuesday)


Practice: Reading Scripture with the Mind of Christ

Looking at which Scripture passages Jesus emphasizes (remember, the Hebrew Bible was his only Bible!) shows he clearly understands how to connect the “three steps forward” dots that confirm the God he has met, knows, loves, and trusts. At the same time, Jesus ignores or openly contradicts the many “two steps backward” texts. He never quotes the book of Numbers, for example, which is rather ritualistic and legalistic. He never quotes Joshua or Judges, which are full of sanctified violence. Basically, Jesus doesn’t quote from his own Scriptures when they are punitive, imperialistic, classist, or exclusionary. In fact, he teaches the opposite.

Jesus does not mention the list of twenty-eight “thou shall nots” in Leviticus 18 through 20, but chooses instead to echo the rare positive quote of Leviticus 19:18: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” The longest single passage he quotes is from Isaiah 61 (in Luke 4:18-19): “The Spirit of the Lord has been given to me. He has anointed me to bring good news to the poor, to proclaim liberty to captives, and to the blind new sight, to set the downtrodden free, and to proclaim a year of favor from the Lord.” But Jesus quotes selectively; he appears to have deliberately omitted the last line—“and the day of vengeance of our God” (Isaiah 61:2b)—because he does not believe in a God of vengeance at all.

Jesus knows how to connect the dots and find out where the text is truly heading, beyond the low-level consciousness of a particular moment, fear, or circumstance. He knows there is a bigger arc to the story: one that always reveals a God who is compassionate, nonviolent, and inclusive of outsiders. He knows how to “thin slice” the text, to find the overall pattern based on small windows of insight. He learned from Ezekiel, for example, that God’s justice is restorative and not retributive.

We can only safely read Scripture—it is a dangerous book—if we are somehow sharing in the divine gaze of love. A life of prayer helps you develop a third eye that can read between the lines and find the golden thread which is moving toward inclusivity, mercy, and justice. I am sure that is what Paul means when he teaches that we must “know spiritual things in a spiritual way” (1 Corinthians 2:13). Any “pre-existing condition” of a hardened heart, a predisposition to judgment, a fear of God, any need to win or prove yourself right will corrupt and distort the most inspired and inspiring of Scriptures—just as they pollute every human conversation and relationship. Hateful people will find hateful verses to confirm their obsession with death. Loving people will find loving verses to call them into an even greater love of life. And both kinds of verses are in the Bible!~https://cac.org/scripture-week-1-summary-2016-02-27/

When you read the better translation and full context of what God said: Who will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and daughters?
That doesn't change my understanding of that passage at all. I think that's an example of giving them over to their OWN lust. It's a lot like when Moses burnt the golden calf in a fire, ground it to powder, scattered it on water, and forced the Israelites to drink it. God was allowing them to get their fill of the [false] god they were worshiping.

Certainly--by asking that question-- you aren't suggesting that's descriptive of God's ways (the eating the flesh of their sons are daughters, I mean)?
 
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mkgal1

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If the person desires their sin, He hates them.

.....and then what (in your belief)? He ceases to care/love them....that's it.......He washes His hands of them....they weren't quick enough to receive His love so He retracts it from them?
 
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Devin P

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.....and then what (in your belief)? He ceases to care/love them....that's it.......He washes His hands of them....they weren't quick enough to receive His love so He retracts it from them?
Well, He sets continually before us a blessing and a curse. It's our choice to pick, blessings or curses. As I said in my previous response -

"I do believe that He desires to save even those He hates, but because of their choices, He has no choice but to punish them. He definitely hates certain people though, otherwise He wouldn't outright say that He does."

As I also said though, He definitely does hate certain people. He outright says that He does. So, to say He doesn't, is against His word. I again, do believe that He desires to save even those. As He says in Ezekiel 33:11 - "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

He hates those that won't turn, but even in this hatred, He desires their salvation. It's like a father that plans to take his kid to an amusement park for the first time, but finds out that his child does something really bad, and needs to be punished. Now, the child can't go to the amusement park, even though the father desires to bring him, he can't. He has to punish the child for their actions.
 
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