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Is God Three, or Two?

Doveaman

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If God the Father is the Holy Spirit and God the Son is also the Holy Spirit, then God is Father and Son existing as One Holy Spirit, Two Persons existing as One Spirit Being.

Perhaps the closest physical analogy of God as One Spirit Being are Siamese twins:

prod_8403.jpg


I'm not saying that the Father and the Son are Siamese twins or that they even look like Siamese twins, I'm just using the physical union of Siamese twins as a physical analogy of the Spirit union of the Father and the Son.

While the physical being of the Siamese twins are restricted by time and space, the Spiritual Being of God is not. But just as each Siamese twin can act independently but not separately because of their physical union, even so the Father and the Son can act independently but not separately because of their Spirit union. The Two exist as One.

"I and My Father are one." - John 10:30.
 

bugkiller

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If God the Father is the Holy Spirit and God the Son is also the Holy Spirit, then God is Father and Son existing as One Holy Spirit, Two Persons existing as One Spirit Being.

Perhaps the closest physical analogy of God as One Spirit Being are Siamese twins:

prod_8403.jpg


I'm not saying that the Father and the Son are Siamese twins or that they even look like Siamese twins, I'm just using the physical union of Siamese twins as a physical analogy of the Spirit union of the Father and the Son.

While the physical being of the Siamese twins are restricted by time and space, the Spiritual Being of God is not. But just as each Siamese twin can act independently but not separately because of their physical union, even so the Father and the Son can act independently but not separately because of their Spirit union. The Two exist as One.

"I and My Father are one." - John 10:30.
Do you have any scripture to back up your statement? I don't recall any verse that might even imply that the Holy Spirit is God the Father or God the Son (Jesus Christ) besides John 10:30 which is taken out of context. This does not say that God the Father and Jesus Christ are the same entity.

bugkiller
927154.gif
 
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Hentenza

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To me, God seems more like one Spirit being existing as two distinct persons: Father and Son.

That would be an unbiblical and unorthodox view. The Father, the Son, and the HS are distinct persons but only one God.
 
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Doveaman

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Do you have any scripture to back up your statement? I don't recall any verse that might even imply that the Holy Spirit is God the Father or God the Son (Jesus Christ) besides John 10:30 which is taken out of context. This does not say that God the Father and Jesus Christ are the same entity.
"But the LORD Almighty will be exalted by His justice, and the holy God will show Himself holy by his righteousness." - Isa 5:16.

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." - John 4:24.

God is Holy and He is also Spirit, therefore God is Holy Spirit.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...The Word became flesh (Jesus) and made his dwelling among us." - John 1:1,14.
 
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judechild

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That would be an unbiblical and unorthodox view. The Father, the Son, and the HS are distinct persons but only one God.

Yes; the early church used to represent the mystery of the Trinity as an anchor: (I tried to post a picture, but it didn't work; go with me).

The hole at the top where the rope goes through represents God the Father. The mid-section forms a cross, and so represents God the Son. The "tusks" form, with a little imagination, the wings of a dove; and therefore represents the Holy Spirit.

All three of these distinct persons were present at Jesus' Baptism: "After all the people had been baptized and Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, heaven was opened / and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, 'You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased" (Luke 3:21,22). The Holy Spirit, here as in other places, is presented as a separate Person from the Father (the Voice from Heaven) and the Son (Jesus).
 
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Doveaman

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That would be an unbiblical and unorthodox view. The Father, the Son, and the HS are distinct persons but only one God.
You are making that claim, but you are not backing up that claim, so it is just your claim at the moment. :)
 
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Hentenza

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You are making that claim, but you are not backing up that claim, so it is just your claim at the moment. :)

I have 2000 years worth of back up including biblical, and historical evidence. Do you really want to go there? ;):)

BTW- Your OP, your claim, your burden of proof. :wave:
 
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judechild

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"But the LORD Almighty will be exalted by His justice, and the holy God will show Himself holy by his righteousness." - Isa 5:16.

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." - John 4:24.

God is Holy and He is also Spirit, therefore God is Holy Spirit.

Yes, God is the Holy Spirit. God is also the Father and the Son.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...The Word became flesh
(Jesus) and made his dwelling among us." - John 1:1,14.

We certainly say so; the Word was made flesh, and the Word is Jesus, but the passage doesn't say anything about the Person of the Holy Spirit. Jesus does, though, when He says He will send "the Advocate" or "the Peraclete": "For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send Him to you... because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see me" (John 16:7,10).
 
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Doveaman

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I have 2000 years worth of back up including biblical, and historical evidence. Do you really want to go there? ;):)
Yep. :)
BTW- Your OP, your claim, your burden of proof. :wave:
I gave an analogy and a few scriptures to support my claim. You have done nothing to refute my claim. Now it's your turn to give something back. :wave:
 
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BreadAlone

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When I think of God, I tend to put it in my (albeit limited, fallible, and finite) mind like this:

The Father is God supreme, all around us, and in control of and ordering the universe. God simply is - that's what his name, YHVH, means after all; a conglomeration of the Hebrew forms of "to be." He is infinite and unknowable, not physical at all and nearly unrelated to our physical world except by the precious breath of life, the spirit, that he has given to all people.

This spirit, however, died when Adam at the fruit (proverbially or otherwise). Hence, The Son, God among us, came into being to know our condition, to feel our pain, to relate to humanity once more.

Having completed all things, God the Son ascended into glory and sent forth the Holy Spirit, God within us, who communes with us personally and shows us the path to the Father, the infinite God.
 
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Deut 5:29

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When Jesus came in the flesh, He revealed the Father... In Jo. 1:18 says “No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him”. Before that time God the Father was unknown to mankind in general.

Here Jesus reveals the Father, if the Holy Spirit was a 3rd individual in the Godhead, this was certainly the time to reveal him too...Don’t you think?
Although the people didn’t know who Jesus was when He came in the flesh, they knew Him in the O.T. as the I am who worked with Moses and as the God who led the children of Israel 40 years in the wilderness.

1Cor. 10 speaks to this. Verse,1Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloudand in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.


In Jo.1 Starting in verse 1 we read...In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. {this was another ideal time to tell us about this 3rd individual if it was true}


The greeting “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ”... or something similar to this is used by Paul in Romans... 1st and 2nd Corinthians...Galatians...Ephesians...Philippians...Colossians...1st and 2nd Thessalonians...1st and 2nd Timothy...Titus...and Philemon. Similar greetings are given in James, 1st John, 2nd John...Jude...and Revelation. All of these can be found within the first 7 verses of these books.

These all seem to me like ideal times to have mentioned the 3rd member of a trinity if one existed, but nothing! You reckon they forgot?

In the 4th and 5th chapters of Rev. there is quite a description of “The Throne Room in Heaven.” In this description we see God on His throne, 24 elders on their thrones, 4 living creatures, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ receiving the prophecy of all prophecies. It seems every one of import was there at this most important event.

Everyone that is, except the Holy Spirit. Do those who teach the trinity think his invitation got lost in the Mail or something?


The Holy Spirit is God’s Power, not a third individual in the godhead.
There are two individuals in the godhead, God the Father and God the Son.


Notice this admission in the New Bible Dictionary: "The term 'Trinity' is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century, but received wide currency and formal elucidation [clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries" (1996, "Trinity," emphasis added).
The dictionary goes on to explain that "the formal doctrine of the Trinity was the result of several inadequate attempts to explain who and what the Christian God really is ... To deal with these problems the Church Fathers met in 325 at the Council of Nicaea to set out an orthodox biblical definition concerning the divine identity." However, it wasn't until 381, "at the Council of Constantinople, [that] the divinity of the Spirit was affirmed ..."

The Scriptures speak of the Holy Spirit in many ways that demonstrate that it is not a divine person. For example, the Holy Spirit is referred to as a gift (Acts 10:45; 1 Timothy 4:14). We are told that it can be quenched (1 Thessalonians 5:19), that it can be poured out (Acts 2:17; 10:45), and that we are baptized with it (Matthew 3:11). It must be stirred up within us (2 Timothy 1:6), and it also renews us (Titus 3:5). These are certainly not attributes of a person.
This Spirit is also called "the holy Spirit of promise ... the guarantee of our inheritance ... the spirit of wisdom and revelation ..." (Ephesians 1:13-14, 17).
In contrast to God the Father and Jesus Christ, who are consistently compared to human beings in their form and shape, the Holy Spirit is just as consistently represented in a completely different manner. It is described as appearing as a dove (Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32) and as "tongues of fire" (Acts 2:3). Jesus compared it with "living water" (John 7:37-39).
The Gospels record further evidence that the Holy Spirit is not a person. In Matthew 1:20, we read that Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit (Moffatt translation). Yet Christ continually prayed to and addressed the Father, not the Holy Spirit, as His father (Matthew 10:32, 33; 11:25-27; 12:50; 15:13; 16:17, 27; 18:10, 35). Never did He represent the Holy Spirit as His Father.
Nor did Jesus speak of the Holy Spirit as a third divine person; instead He only spoke of the relationship between Him and God the Father (Matthew 26:39; Mark 13:32; 15:34; John 5:18, 22; 8:16, 18; 10:30; 13:3; 17:11).
If the godhead were a Trinity, surely the apostle Paul would have understood and emphasized this in his teaching. Yet we find no such concept in his writings. Paul's standard greeting in his letters to churches, as well as individuals to whom he wrote, is, "Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." There is no mention of the Holy Spirit.
This same greeting, with only minor variations, appears in every epistle that bears Paul's name: Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 1:2; Philippians 1:2; Colossians 1:2; 1 Thessalonians 1:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:2; 1 Timothy 1:2; 2 Timothy 1:2; Titus 1:4; and Philemon 3. The Holy Spirit is always left out of these greetings—an unbelievable oversight if the Holy Spirit were indeed a person coequal with God and Jesus.
This is even more surprising when we consider that the churches to which Paul wrote had many gentile members from polytheistic backgrounds who had formerly worshiped numerous gods. Paul's epistles record no attempt on his part to explain the Trinity or Holy Spirit as a divine person equal with God the Father and Jesus Christ.
The apostle Paul states clearly that "there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things ... and one Lord Jesus Christ ..." (1 Corinthians 8:6). He makes no mention of the Holy Spirit as a divine person.
The final book of the Bible (and the last to be written) describes "a new heaven and a new earth" (Revelation 21:1) wherein "the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them" (verse 3). Jesus Christ, "the Lamb," is also there (verse 22). The Holy Spirit, however, is conspicuously absent—another inconceivable oversight if this Spirit is the third person of a Trinity.
"God is Spirit" (John 4:24) and His Spirit is described by an angel as "the power of the Highest" (Luke 1:35). It is the same power we can receive directly from God.
Many other scriptures show this connection between the Holy Spirit and God's power. For example, Paul reminded Timothy that "God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind" (2 Timothy 1:7). Other scriptures refer to the Holy Spirit as the power of God (Zechariah 4:6; Micah 3:8).
Luke 4:14 records that Jesus Christ began His ministry "in the power of the Spirit." Speaking of the Holy Spirit, which would be given to His followers after His death, Jesus told them, "You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you ..." (Acts 1:8).
Peter relates that "God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, [and Jesus] went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him" (Acts 10:38). The Holy Spirit is here associated with the power by which God was with Him—the power through which Jesus Christ performed mighty miracles during His earthly, physical ministry. The Holy Spirit is the very presence of God's power actively working in His servants (Psalm 51:11; 139:7).
Paul expresses his desire that church members would "abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the same way that Jesus had worked through him "in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God" (Romans 15:13, 19).
This Spirit empowers Christians to live a life of growing and overcoming, of transforming their lives to become like Jesus Christ.
When the Holy Spirit is referred to by personal pronouns such as "he" or "himself" in the Scriptures, this does not prove the Holy Spirit is a person. The translators of the King James Version, influenced by their belief in the Holy Spirit as a third person in the Trinity, generally translated pronouns referring to the Holy Spirit as personal and masculine rather than neuter.
Translators of later English versions of the Bible, also operating from the premise of the Trinity, have gone a step further and most often translated all references to the Holy Spirit as masculine. Thus God's spirit is almost always incorrectly referred to with such personal pronouns as "he" or "him" in English Bible translations.

And that's the truth on that subject.
 
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Doveaman

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Doveaman

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When I think of God, I tend to put it in my (albeit limited, fallible, and finite) mind like this:

The Father is God supreme, all around us, and in control of and ordering the universe. God simply is - that's what his name, YHVH, means after all; a conglomeration of the Hebrew forms of "to be." He is infinite and unknowable, not physical at all and nearly unrelated to our physical world except by the precious breath of life, the spirit, that he has given to all people.


This spirit, however, died when Adam at the fruit (proverbially or otherwise). Hence, The Son, God among us, came into being to know our condition, to feel our pain, to relate to humanity once more.


Having completed all things, God the Son ascended into glory and sent forth the Holy Spirit, God within us, who communes with us personally and shows us the path to the Father, the infinite God.
Can you explain how God is considered to be one being existing in three distinct persons?
 
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Hentenza

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Yep. :)
I gave an analogy and a few scriptures to support my claim. You have done nothing to refute my claim. Now it's your turn to give something back. :wave:

K, lets look at your analogy.

If God the Father is the Holy Spirit and God the Son is also the Holy Spirit, then God is Father and Son existing as One Holy Spirit, Two Persons existing as One Spirit Being.

God the Father is not the HS and God the Son is not the HS. It fails from the start.

John 14
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Here are all 3 which Jesus addresses as being distinctive of one another.

Perhaps the closest physical analogy of God as One Spirit Being are Siamese twins:

prod_8403.jpg


I'm not saying that the Father and the Son are Siamese twins or that they even look like Siamese twins, I'm just using the physical union of Siamese twins as a physical analogy of the Spirit union of the Father and the Son.

While the physical being of the Siamese twins are restricted by time and space, the Spiritual Being of God is not. But just as each Siamese twin can act independently but not separately because of their physical union, even so the Father and the Son can act independently but not separately because of their Spirit union. The Two exist as One.

"I and My Father are one." - John 10:30.

Siamese twins are attached with very little opportunity of working independently. All 3 distinct persons of the Trinity work distinctively but are not 3 modes.
 
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