Is God 3 persons?

[FerventDisciple]

I've always been Trinitarian and am but I'd be lying if I said I perfectly understood it. I know Oneness Pentecostal folks, my mechanic is one and I even had a Oneness Pentecostal Pastor attend my wedding. I've heard their arguments and while there's much I disagree with, some seem to be well formulated against the Trinity. They believe that God is one person but manifests in 3 ways, so the Father is Jesus and He's the Holy Spirit and visa versa. I've seen the Trinitarian apologists call this heresy but yet when I hear their statements on the Trinity and their description of the word person is very ambiguous. The Oneness will say God cannot be 3 persons and still be 1 God. Now of course Trinitarians do believe in 1 God and not 3. I just find the word person hard to understand. If I were to say I'm 1 human but 3 persons you'd consider me to be bipolar or have some kind of psychological disorder. Either I'm not understanding persons or it's a bad word to use to describe the Godhead. There's extremes on both sides, some Trinitarians say you'll go to Hell if you don't accept their definition of it and some on the Oneness side will say the same thing in regards to their position.

Mods please don't move this to unorthodox theology. It's just a thread to discuss the Godhead and posted here because I'm Charismatic in theology and value the opinions of Charismatics. Also the Oneness Pentecostals also are Charismatic in their Pneumatology.

 

[Steeno7]

"There is One true and living God - indivisible, infinite; co-eternal, co-equal, and co-existing in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each possess the same essence and attributes of deity; deserving our obedience and reverence. However, the Father is not the Spirit; the Spirit is not the Son; and the Son is not the Father."

The problem is that we think of a person as an individual, because in our experience, that is the way it is. But that is not really the meaning of the word, particularly as it is used in the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Messy]

Jesus was called God with us, not: God the Son with us, so the whole Trinity and in Isaiah 6:9 He's called Everlasting Father. Was He when He was on earth one Person or three Persons in one Body? In Him all the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily. The Father is in Me, I am in the Father. He got filled with the Spirit, then He did miracles. Show us the Father. Have I been so long with you and you don't know Me? He only said what the Father told Him. Jesus is the perfect way to see the Trinity.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

My understanding of the Trinity is not that there is just one being who manifests in different ways, but that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are so unified in purpose that it is one will that drives them. So what the Son does, the Father and Spirt approve of, and so on. And all three are equally God.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." 2Co 13:14

The Trinity is a topic of extreme importance. It is not however easily understood. Not that I claim to know how God works within himself, but I felt inspired to attempt to explain so here it goes. My apologies in advance to those of you who are theology majors. (I'm not)

Perhaps the best place to start is:

"And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."" Mat 3:16-17

A clear distinction is made here. Jesus is being baptized, the Holy Spirit is descending, the Father is expressing joy in Jesus.

I want to attempt to explain this from the perspective of Jesus' relationship with the Father and Holy Spirit.

"In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. He existed in the beginning with God." Joh 1:1-2

"I and the Father are one."" Joh 10:30

"Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation," Col 1:15

"For God in all His fullness was pleased to live in Christ," Col 1:19

Now Jesus is God. He was the visible manifestation of all the Father was and still is. I believe this is because Jesus obeyed the Father perfectly in every matter.

"In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him," Heb 5:7-9

"But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise." Joh 5:17-19

"So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me." Joh 7:16

"So Jesus said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me." Joh 8:28

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The wordsher that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves." Joh 14:10-11

We can see that Jesus' relationship with the Father was based off His obedience to the Father's will. He obeyed completely in every matter presented before him. This was the basis of Jesus saying the Father was in him and he in the Father. This was made possible by the Holy Spirit.

So what about the Holy Spirit?

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (2 Corinthians 3:17 NIV)

trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. (1 Peter 1:11 NIV)

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. (Romans 8:9 NIV)

Now the Apostles knew that the Lord and the Spirit were so closely knit together they were

"For He is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God gives Him the Spirit without limit." Joh 3:34
virtually inseparable. Just as Peter said of the Holy Spirit and the Father in Acts 5. The Lord also had a working relationship with the Spirit:

"One day when the crowds were being baptized, Jesus Himself was baptized. As He was praying, the heavens opened, and the Holy Spirit, in bodily form, descended on Him like a dove. And a voice from heaven said, "You are My dearly loved Son, and You bring Me great joy. "" Luk 3:21-22

"Then Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan River. He was led by the Spirit in the wilderness," Luk 4:1

"Then Jesus returned to Galilee, filled with the Holy Spirit's power. Reports about Him spread quickly through the whole region." Luk 4:14

Jesus was limitless in the Holy Spirit. God gave his Son the never ending flow of the Spirit. By this relationship with the Spirit, Jesus was able to carry out perfect obedience to the Father and perform completely every task set before him.

This I believe is the basis for Paul's teaching that Jesus was the exact representation of the Father on earth. The Father worked his works through Jesus as he willed. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were working together in perfect unison; the Father leading Jesus, the Spirit empowering Jesus, Jesus glorifying the Father through the Spirit. It was as if there were just one of them walking and talking on earth, even though there were three distinct personalities.

Now I'm sure I don't do this doctrine justice. I probably missed some scripture references, but I feel this short synapsis captures the essence of the Holy trinity. That three different and distinct persons can be so perfectly united in thought, deed, and will that it is as if there were only one person.

I also believe this model is meant for us too as believers, that Jesus gives us the Spirit to empower us to serve and grant us adoption into the family of God and we in turn take our marching orders from Jesus as revealed by the Spirit.

 

[jiminpa]

We don't understand the trinity, nor are we capable. God is one, yet He also has 3 definite distinctions. It makes no sense to our limited minds. But then, God isn't asking us how He should be. Any doctrine that falls short of both of those truths is wrong, which makes reformed theology, in all its arrogance, just as wrong as oneness Pentecostalism.

 

[Andry]

Lawrence (OP), why do you think God created us in the first place?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I've always been Trinitarian and am but I'd be lying if I said I perfectly understood it.

The simple FACT is that ANYBODY who says they "Perfectly understand" it is either a fool, or a liar (probably both).

God is beyond our understanding, and always will be, until we KNOW even as we are known.

Personally I don't give it a second thought, in terms of trying to "prove" anything.

But ONE THING is for sure:

ANY Denominational group who pronounces damnation on folks based on their Understanding of the exact nature of the Godhead is just another pathetic judgemental CULT, that's best IGNORED.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

The simple FACT is that ANYBODY who says they "Perfectly understand" it is either a fool, or a liar (probably both).

God is beyond our understanding, and always will be, until we KNOW even as we are known.

Personally I don't give it a second thought, in terms of trying to "prove" anything.

But ONE THING is for sure:

ANY Denominational group who pronounces damnation on folks based on their Understanding of the exact nature of the Godhead is just another pathetic judgemental CULT, that's best IGNORED.

Yes sir!

 

[FerventDisciple]

Lawrence (OP), why do you think God created us in the first place?

Col 1:16 says for Jesus.

 

[FerventDisciple]

Jesus was called God with us, not: God the Son with us, so the whole Trinity and in Isaiah 6:9 He's called Everlasting Father. Was He when He was on earth one Person or three Persons in one Body? In Him all the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily. The Father is in Me, I am in the Father. He got filled with the Spirit, then He did miracles. Show us the Father. Have I been so long with you and you don't know Me? He only said what the Father told Him. Jesus is the perfect way to see the Trinity.

Are you Oneness? Those are the same verses I hear them use.

 

[Andry]

Col 1:16 says for Jesus.

Yeah, I get that. But why? For what purpose?

(I'm asking because I believe it helps us to understand God's nature.)

 

[jiminpa]

Are you Oneness? Those are the same verses I hear them use.

I'm not so sure that Messy stops there. What makes oneness oneness is that they stop with this aspect of God and leave out that He is also distinctly three.

God is one, period! But He is also three. Just because we can't understand how that is possible doesn't make it any less true. It makes us limited in understanding, which is kind of a no-brainer. We are limited in understanding. We're finite arguing about aspects of God we don't comprehend. The problem is that some theologies build alters on what they don't know and shout "heresy!" at anyone not wrong the same way they are.

 

[FerventDisciple]

Yeah, I get that. But why? For what purpose?

(I'm asking because I believe it helps us to understand God's nature.)

Oh are you going to the body, soul and spirit analogy? You also have the water one and the space one.

I've been saved 7 years so I'm not a novice or on milk when it comes to learning the Trinity or questions relating to the faith. I just haven't heard an explanation of the words persons which makes much sense. Or if the word means something different to how we use it normally, we need a different word to describe the Trinity. That word is one of the biggest obstacles to the Oneness people. They can point to One and manifestations as biblically words, with Trinity and persons you can't.

 

[Andry]

Oh are you going to the body, soul and spirit analogy? You also have the water one and the space one.

I've been saved 7 years so I'm not a novice or on milk when it comes to learning the Trinity or questions relating to the faith. I just haven't heard an explanation of the words persons which makes much sense. Or if the word means something different to how we use it normally, we need a different word to describe the Trinity. That word is one of the biggest obstacles to the Oneness people. They can point to One and manifestations as biblically words, with Trinity and persons you can't.

Nope.

And I wasn't presuming that you were a novice.

The God of the universe, who created everything, and had "everything", so to speak - before he created us - begs the question: why did he create us? From a need to have? Or a need to share? Or something else?

 

[FerventDisciple]

Nope.

And I wasn't presuming that you were a novice.

The God of the universe, who created everything, and had "everything", so to speak - before he created us - begs the question: why did he create us? From a need to have? Or a need to share? Or something else?

You could say to express his attributes but then that would make God dependent upon something outside of Himself so no. Col 1:16 is the closest thing I know in scripture so I'll stick with that, I don't want to get into philosophies. Scripture is where it's at. Created for Him, it doesn't say why in that particular area.

 

[CGL1023]

I've always been Trinitarian and am but I'd be lying if I said I perfectly understood it. I know Oneness Pentecostal folks, my mechanic is one and I even had a Oneness Pentecostal Pastor attend my wedding. I've heard their arguments and while there's much I disagree with, some seem to be well formulated against the Trinity. They believe that God is one person but manifests in 3 ways, so the Father is Jesus and He's the Holy Spirit and visa versa. I've seen the Trinitarian apologists call this heresy but yet when I hear their statements on the Trinity and their description of the word person is very ambiguous. The Oneness will say God cannot be 3 persons and still be 1 God. Now of course Trinitarians do believe in 1 God and not 3. I just find the word person hard to understand. If I were to say I'm 1 human but 3 persons you'd consider me to be bipolar or have some kind of psychological disorder. Either I'm not understanding persons or it's a bad word to use to describe the Godhead. There's extremes on both sides, some Trinitarians say you'll go to Hell if you don't accept their definition of it and some on the Oneness side will say the same thing in regards to their position.

Mods please don't move this to unorthodox theology. It's just a thread to discuss the Godhead and posted here because I'm Charismatic in theology and value the opinions of Charismatics. Also the Oneness Pentecostals also are Charismatic in their Pneumatology.

Thanks for bringing this up for discussion. I ran squarely into the issue of trinity/oneness last week. I didn't investigate the small church I had been attending for the past 2 mos. It never occurred to me that the church may be oneness. I had only ever attended trinitarian churches. I finally found out the orientation was oneness and I had to decide if I would continue there or not.

In reading on the subject on the internet, I discovered individuals making strong cases for their respective viewpoint each using the same bible to defend their views. I found out that if one should choose incorrectly, trinitarian or oneness, you would be hopelessly, unredeemably lost.

I had read in the past that the trinitarian view is closer to the truth than oneness and I had just gone with that for years. Now I had to decide.

I couldn't imagine that anyone about to be saved would first have to take a crash-course on abstract theology just to do what thousands do spontaneously every day -- that is come forward for salvation. I reason that knowing the details about trinity/oneness in ones initial encounter with the Lord is meaningless as the concepts involved are at the PhD level.

With that, I dismissed the whole pursuit and attend this oneness church because the Spirit flows in it and it has an on-fire group of believers, which is what I had originally sought.

 

[Alithis]

I've always been Trinitarian and am but I'd be lying if I said I perfectly understood it. I know Oneness Pentecostal folks, my mechanic is one and I even had a Oneness Pentecostal Pastor attend my wedding. I've heard their arguments and while there's much I disagree with, some seem to be well formulated against the Trinity. They believe that God is one person but manifests in 3 ways, so the Father is Jesus and He's the Holy Spirit and visa versa. I've seen the Trinitarian apologists call this heresy but yet when I hear their statements on the Trinity and their description of the word person is very ambiguous. The Oneness will say God cannot be 3 persons and still be 1 God. Now of course Trinitarians do believe in 1 God and not 3. I just find the word person hard to understand. If I were to say I'm 1 human but 3 persons you'd consider me to be bipolar or have some kind of psychological disorder. Either I'm not understanding persons or it's a bad word to use to describe the Godhead. There's extremes on both sides, some Trinitarians say you'll go to Hell if you don't accept their definition of it and some on the Oneness side will say the same thing in regards to their position.

Mods please don't move this to unorthodox theology. It's just a thread to discuss the Godhead and posted here because I'm Charismatic in theology and value the opinions of Charismatics. Also the Oneness Pentecostals also are Charismatic in their Pneumatology.

"There is One true and living God - indivisible, infinite; co-eternal, co-equal, and co-existing in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each possess the same essence and attributes of deity; deserving our obedience and reverence. However, the Father is not the Spirit; the Spirit is not the Son; and the Son is not the Father."

The problem is that we think of a person as an individual, because in our experience, that is the way it is. But that is not really the meaning of the word, particularly as it is used in the doctrine of the Trinity.

"The problem is that we think of a person as an individual, because in our experience, that is the way it is."

good answer .. we do sort of separate the three person of the Godhead into three individuals -within the confines of our limited understanding .. and it is not so .. and it is so .. its more the we can comprehend that's for sure .'
we sure do spend to much time arguing about though

 

[jiminpa]

"The problem is that we think of a person as an individual, because in our experience, that is the way it is."

good answer .. we do sort of separate the three person of the Godhead into three individuals -within the confines of our limited understanding .. and it is not so .. and it is so .. its more the we can comprehend that's for sure .'
we sure do spend to much time arguing about though