Is Free Will the ultimate sin?

[CryOfALion]

Some will be saved in this life some will go through the purifying fire instead. Ultimately all will be reconciled by and through the omega point.

So basically the universe is in a evolution and will eventually evolve and be able to communicate with it's maker. This process is more painful for some than others but ultimately all will evolve.

At least that is the myth I am going with.

It's pretty gnostic in origin, but I kind of agree.

 

[Jesse2014]

That last part is perfectly true - everyone is a slave to something.

Most often, it is self, or money - also out of fear. More people than you may realize follow a god out of relationship, and not fear. People are not prizes to rush into relationships with.

I do not deny that.

I am just talking about those who are afraid, and obey God because of that fear. But I know there are a lot of people who obey God simply because they love him, and there is no fear. I don't think I will ever get there. My flesh enjoys sin too much. But I fear hell more then I enjoy it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't obey God perfectly, for I have some addicting habits that are sinful. But because of my fear of God, who can destroy me, I am determine to stop my addictions. And yes, this is based on fear.

So my point is, I wasn't speaking about anyone except me, and the nature of my relationship with God.

I have meant a very few number of believers who obey out of fear. For most believers think obeying out of fear is wrong. But that's not what I got out of the Bible. Paul is constantly warning us about the wrath of God. So basically I am becoming a fearful slave.

 

[SeventhValley]

It's pretty gnostic in origin, but I kind of agree.

I see it as Origen/Gregory of Nyssa meets Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.

Granted the ecuminical councils stamped alot of mysticism out of Christianity.

 

[CryOfALion]

I do not deny that.

I am just talking about those who are afraid, and obey God because of that fear. But I know there are a lot of people who obey God simply because they love him, and there is no fear. I don't think I will ever get there. My flesh enjoys sin too much. But I fear hell more then I enjoy it.

A lot of people are claiming God, don't understand Him, downright deny Him, and utterly know for certain they will receive a crown. God knows these people - all of them, and He knows their hearts.

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Luke 18:9-14

Fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Proverbs 9:10.

You may be surprised where you end up.

Don't get me wrong, I don't obey God perfectly, for I have some addicting habits that are sinful. But because of my fear of God, who can destroy me, I am determine to stop my addictions. And yes, this is based on fear.

So, I would say fear is useful in instruction. But, I don't think even God wants you to stay there. Fear in exchange for understanding, love, and then relationship should happen too. Either that, or drop the fear for ignorance and rejection. This is for anything; we do the same things with our parents and other relationships we have. (Fear in Hebrew means terror, but also means piety and reverence in 9:10.)

And, your addictive habits and love of flesh and sin don't miraculously go away when you are saved. Thinking philosophically, you literally are killing a huge chunk of yourself and at the same time going through the trauma of a spiritual rebirth. That takes time, a tremendous amount of will and effort, or miracle if quick - otherwise you will likely psychologically kill yourself if you go from sinner to saint in "five seconds." So I say that to say I doubt that is what would keep you from God seeing you as His own.

So my point is, I wasn't speaking about anyone except me, and the nature of my relationship with God.

I got you.

I have meant a very few number of believers who obey out of fear. For most believers think obeying out of fear is wrong. But that's not what I got out of the Bible. Paul is constantly warning us about the wrath of God. So basically I am becoming a fearful slave.

If by fear you mean you try to follow His commandments because the alternative is much less appealing, then that is a great start. But, that is what any good soldier does; God is trying to raise a family. I think God tries to assure us that He is giving us a lot of slack and range to do things that may offend Him if at the end of the day we can repent and come to actually choose to love Him because you like and respect Him. There is nothing wrong with a good soldier, but they make not so good close friends if they are always scared you will send them to Oblivion at the slightest infraction. (In reality, this One went to "oblivion" Himself so that we wouldn't have to be scared of that.)

 

[CryOfALion]

I see it as Origen/Gregory of Nyssa meets Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.

Granted the ecuminical councils stamped alot of mysticism out of Christianity.

It's remnants can be found in various Eastern religions, including, and especially Hinduism. Oh, and Marvel Comics.

 

[Erth]

No. Using free will in the wrong way is sin, but there are so many good things we can choose to do with out free will that it isn't of itself a sin.

(with our free will)

Supreme is right, and free will is part and parcel of the Christian anthropology.

 

[Zoness]

(with our free will)

Supreme is right, and free will is part and parcel of the Christian anthropology.

Do you find this to be a good thing? I can't see how it would be in a Christian context.

 

[rick357]

It would seem if one believes there is no free will than an aurgument about that fact is pretty pointless.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Using free will in the wrong way is sin, but there are so many good things we can choose to do with out free will that it isn't of itself a sin.

I like how another put it when saying that free will is necessary (with the reality of grace/Mercy for those seeking God and wanting to Know Him) in order to have a world of real choice - as you can't have a world with the possibility of moral good without really having a world existing with moral evil being possible as well.

Evil, Pain, Suffering = NO GOD? a C.S. Lewis response - YouTube

The Problem of Suffering and the Goodness of God - Ravi Zacharias at Johns Hopkins - YouTube

As another noted best (for brief excerpt):

In orthodox Christian perspective, the cross of Christ is the climax of incarnation. God displays the depths of his love for all of creation by bearing the ultimate consequence of the evil our free will has brought into the world.

We also learn that God’s omnipotence doesn’t look like that of Zeus, king of the gods. The power of God is revealed in Jesus’ giving of his life by his own free will for the purpose of reconciling a broken humanity.

Greg Boyd writes…

“The cross refutes the traditional notion that omnipotence means God always gets his way. Rather, the cross reveals God’s omnipotence as a power that empowers others—to the point of giving others the ability, if they so choose, to nail him to the cross. The cross reveals that God’s omnipotence is displayed in self-sacrificial love, not sheer might. God conquers sin and the devil not by a sovereign decree but by a wise and humble submission to crucifixion. In doing this, the cross reveals that God’s omnipotence is not primarily about control but about his compelling love. God conquers evil and wins the heart of people by self-sacrificial love, not by coercive force.” God of the Possible, p.18​

Is God Good? - YouTube
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Orthodoxy does the best job of noting what free will means and why God's Love is always the center behind the concept of free will/salvation....

Orthodox view of Salvation - YouTube

Freedom is something that is both simple and complicated at the same time. For me, I'd argue that say that God being in control is perhaps best demonstrated in the fact that he does NOT need to intervene in all cases or control all events in regards to Free Will. Some time ago, I came across something which somewhat broached the subject delicately with how much control the Lord may or may not have.

Others who shared it with me noted how having an open view is the only one that makes sense out of the observable world, while being at least largely consistent with scripture when it comes to how many things the Lord did leave either to chance or human action. Of course, the article is from someone who is an ex-Christian - but it was noteworthy nontheless when it seemed to suggest that God the Father did not really answer the prayer of Jesus for unity (even though that is not grounds for suggesting that God never answers prayer - Jesus asked for his 'cup of suffering' to pass before him (Luke 22:42-44 and Matthew 26:39), but still went to the cross as the Father willed ...learning obediance from what he suffered as Hebrews 5:7-10 notes- there was no other way).

But on what was shared there (for a brief excerpt) in God Doesn't Even Answer Prayers to Himself from Himself:

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As a believer in Christ, I knew how instrumental Christian discord is in sowing doubts in the minds of outside observers. For if Christians cannot bring themselves to agree on what mandates of God are, is it not at least an indication that they are not guided by the same omnipotent deity but rather by their own interior preferences and prejudices? Christians are often defensive about this charge, quickly discounting their deep differences, and insisting that they are in agreement about the key issue—Jesus Christ. However, it is not just pesky atheists who think that Christian division poses a threat to the faithful’s credibility. According to the Gospel of John, Jesus knew that the faithful’s disunity raises doubts:

“I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world (John 17:20-24).

They are two noteworthy issues in this prayer of Jesus. First that he realizes that the lack of unity signals to the world that there are reasons to not believe and secondly that a prayer by none other than Jesus remains unfulfilled 20 centuries after they were allegedly spoken. ....

......... Jesus, who presumably excels in faith and virtue, made an important and reasonable request to his father, who allegedly gives good gifts and answers the righteous and yet, here we are 2000 years after the fact and Christians are divided into ever more numerous factions with views spanning the political and theological spectrum. You cannot know by the fact that someone uses the label “Christian,” whether she believes in a literal Hell where there is physical torment, a spiritual Hell where one is separated from God and lives in “darkness,” or no Hell at all. All are however united by an eagerness to point out that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is an authentic one and that it is the other guy who has got it wrong. ... I understand a delay in the fulfilment of God’s action does not mean God has not answered. How do I know that God is not going to bring about Christian unity in his time? God’s timing—that other dark hole.

Here’s the problem, Christians. God’s delay poses an eternal threat to millions, if not billions of well-meaning souls who would have otherwise accepted Jesus and gone to Heaven. If even just one person does not believe and goes to Hell all because God has delayed in clarifying the myriad theological disagreements among Christians then God’s delay is responsible for the perishing of that soul. And is not one soul worth God getting off his throne and making himself clear?

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Of course, some of her conclusions were things I had pause on. For starters, the individual rested it all on 'oneness' meaning 'unity of belief' rather than knowing that, despite our different perspectives, we are unified, and therefore being a visible demonstration of the Father's invisible unity with the Son despite their different perspectives.

My take on what the individual noted was that Jesus seems to be saying that our mission on earth will be stronger for our unity - but what Jesus doesn't say is that the whole faith will be undermined by disunity .....and in many ways, seeing the ways things develop over time, it does make you wonder if God is actually behind the many splits and new developments (controlled chaos) or if perhaps he is simply allowing things to play out and will intervene at a certain point. We have often screwed it up a lot, IMHO...and to bring the point home....

As it is, for theistic determinism and even Molinism it's hard to see why God couldn't have and wouldn't have brought about a much higher degree of Christian unity than there is...and yet if greater Christian unity is something that God cannot just "bring about" without significantly overriding creaturely freedom then we have at least a partial explanation of why God doesn't just "answer" Jesus' prayer in that way. Something else to consider is that Jesus prayed the prayer in the hearing of his disciples, a fact which suggests that he was appealing to *them* as much as to the Father to foster a spirit of unity. Indeed, That Christians have often failed in that regard does not, by itself, suggest that either God or Christianity have failed


One of my friends noted it best in one of his reviews - as seen in Freestyle Providence: Hip Hop, Improvisation, and the Praiseworthy Wisdom of God and Open theism | Theological Graffiti - Digital Etchings on Life and Faith

With all of that said, part of me would think that in the same way one running an experiment knows all potential outcomes and yet never loses control when things develop naturally since the scientists establishes limits on how far things can go, it is possible for God to be in control without needing to be involved in each and every aspect of life itself.

And thus, Free Will would not really be the Ultimate Sin in any kind of way.


There was a discussion elsewhere that actually tackled the issue somewhat more in-depth - as seen in Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented? as well as The Lion of Reuben (Not Judah): Seeing Prophecy & if mistakes are possible (when seeing the ways the Lord worked out the mistakes of others for His glory, with Him choosing a different route in order to still accomplish the larger goal that He wanted )....and As shared more fully in #51 and here (on the life of Samson and the choices he made which often seemed counter to the OT Law and yet all were a part of God's design to challenge the Philistines), Its always a trip when studying the topic of possibilities, mistakes and God's choosing to work with them as He intervenes in History. Its always a wild topic to cover---as it relates to the possibility of God allowing Himself to have His mind changed on certain things...which often seemed to repeat itself throughout the OT. And though it may sound radical, it would seem to be no more of an issue than to say Christ had to be perfected (Hebrews 2:5-18, Hebrews 5:5-10) or having to Grow in Wisdom/Knowledge according to Luke 2:40/Luke 2:52...and Christ being "surprised"/amazed by the faith of the Centurion in Luke 7:9 / Matthew 8:9-11..as well as by what He saw in Nazareth at Mark 6:6.


When it comes to the limits of choice and how far we can go, others have noted - with the "Middle Knowledge" view (which evolved outside of Open Theism in many ways) that God foreknows not only what will come to pass but also what would have come to pass under any and all circumstances in any and all possible worlds....and in regards to the view, it seems logical that we can embrace both God's sovereignty and man's free choice. Though even with the view, there're variations. In example, Gregory Boyd discussed it best when describing something on his site ---if going online/looking the article up under the title of "Neo-Molinism and the Infinite Intelligence of God"---inwhich the argument came up describing how "classical Molinism overlooked a whole left category of truths that an omniscient God would know: namely, the category of truths about what free agents might and might not do...

When you're in possession of infinite knowledge, you also have the capicity to be aware of infinite possibilities. When you have infinite knowledge, I'm sure it just something you know..and in that sense, I see many examples in scripture showing where the Lord intended for one thing to occur and yet got another/adapted in kind to it. Its very strategic. When I play Chess, I make a move, and I know you have a finite number of possible moves. It is just something I know. Jonah prophesied that in 40 days that Nineveh would be destroyed. But Nineveh repented and God relented. Isaiah prophesied to Hezekiah to get his house in order because he was going to die. Hezekiah prayed to the Lord and wept. The Lord heard him, and Isaiah came right back in with another word that he would live and go up to the house of the Lord. Hezekiah asked for a sign that the second word was true, and God granted it, moving the shadow of the steps in the 'wrong' direction. In every point, it was not as if God was unable to exist in a reality where one choice was made instead of another - He simply knows all and is always prepared for all, regardless of what does or doesn't happen. And yet there are still limitations amazingly -
There are many events that the Lord ordained to come to pass....and yet it's not the case that every single event the Lord has shown awareness of. Jesus was certainly amazed at the faith of the centurion in Luke 8 and Matthew 8. Moreover, there were many instances within the Word where the Lord noted that what people chose was never what He desired or had in mind to begin with (Jeremiah 32:35, Jeremiah 19:5, Jeremiah 7:31 ). ..be it with the Flood of Man or the Exodus 32/Numbers 14 account where the Lord changed His mind about certain paths he had planned to take his people down on.

And of course, there's the account of Abraham - where the Lord tested him to know what was fully in His heart ....and then noted at the end of Genesis 22 "Now I know that you truly love me"

 

[Erth]

Do you find this to be a good thing? I can't see how it would be in a Christian context.

It is good, yes.

You must have a clear notion of why it is not good. Can you please tell me what this notion is that you have? I think it could bring a fruitful discussion.

 

[Zoness]

It is good, yes.

You must have a clear notion of why it is not good. Can you please tell me what this notion is that you have? I think it could bring a fruitful discussion.

The problem I see is apparent; we are able and in many theological circles, always, going to choose behavior contrary to God's will and must be punished for it. Not having free will would have eliminated this. Of course the automaton argument would arise but would that not be favorable to eternal torture?

I would take annihilationism over being an automaton but not eternal, conscious torture over it. I'm curious about your thoughts.

 

[rick357]

The problem I see is apparent; we are able and in many theological circles, always, going to choose behavior contrary to God's will and must be punished for it. Not having free will would have eliminated this. Of course the automaton argument would arise but would that not be favorable to eternal torture?

I would take annihilationism over being an automaton but not eternal, conscious torture over it. I'm curious about your thoughts.

To create what he wanted the ability to fail was presant....yet despite that he has made a way to truly have what he desired true sons and daughters....to whom much is given much is expected....Adam failed as an individual....and as corporate mankind he has also failed...but God has gleaned from that exactly what he needed....sons and daughters that have his life flowing through them...created to be masters of the creation...caretakers of all the Father has provided....for he holds believers so precious that apon weighing the future success and glory against the past failure and misery....it is worth it to him
Truth be we speak of the horrors of this world and overlook the goodness....would it be a good thing to abort every pregnancy from today forward since the general opinion is God should not have created us if he knew we would experiance failure....will any child born not experiance failure and heartache and need....but we count our childrens lives as precious...and feel their every sadness in our own hearts...but we never wish...even if they become convinced to hate us that they had never been born.

 

[rick357]

The problem I see is apparent; we are able and in many theological circles, always, going to choose behavior contrary to God's will and must be punished for it. Not having free will would have eliminated this. Of course the automaton argument would arise but would that not be favorable to eternal torture?

I would take annihilationism over being an automaton but not eternal, conscious torture over it. I'm curious about your thoughts.

As to annihilation the more I see in scripture the more I agree with this idea....though most in my church (full gospel/pentecostal) would run me off for saying so....I see what I see.

 

[Supreme]

The problem I see is apparent; we are able and in many theological circles, always, going to choose behavior contrary to God's will and must be punished for it. Not having free will would have eliminated this. Of course the automaton argument would arise but would that not be favorable to eternal torture?

I would take annihilationism over being an automaton but not eternal, conscious torture over it. I'm curious about your thoughts.

I don't think we could possibly fathom how being an automaton would work. You wouldn't have your own thoughts, feelings or emotions. Everything would be directed by God. We just have no idea how not having free will would work.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I don't think we could possibly fathom how being an automaton would work. You wouldn't have your own thoughts, feelings or emotions. Everything would be directed by God. We just have no idea how not having free will would work.

If the neurosciences have it right at this point, then choice is an illusion, and our conscious minds only believe to make decisions after the course has already been set.
In fact, this illusion is so persistent that it defies logical thought: if you cause a person to lift their arm by artificially stimulating the relevant parts of their brains, and then ask them why they lifted it, they WILL name a reason, and believe it was their decision.

 

[gord44]

Jane nailed it. Good response.

 

[JackofSpades]

I don't think we could possibly fathom how being an automaton would work. You wouldn't have your own thoughts, feelings or emotions. Everything would be directed by God. We just have no idea how not having free will would work.

As Jane said, having no free will doesn't mean we would not have illusion of free will. Or experience of free will, without actually having one.

Often theologians who believe in predestination, explain it this way: "Tell people to believe in Jesus, and those who choose him, are predestined." They chose because they were chosen.

I have personally experienced some pretty strong guidance experiences in my life, like praying for something, then ending up doing things that lead to desired outcome without actual intention. Those experiences have given me pretty strong impression that if we have free will at all, it is rather limited and it's possible to activate divine override over it without ourselves even noticing it.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Also keep in mind that modern psychology has pretty much dispelled the notion of a unified, essential, non-contradictory "self" that qualifies as a permanent and unchanging identity.
And that biology has long since disproved vitalism, i.e. the notion that biological life depends on an immaterial "life-force" such as the soul.

 

[Zoness]

As to annihilation the more I see in scripture the more I agree with this idea....though most in my church (full gospel/pentecostal) would run me off for saying so....I see what I see.

I think either Annihilationism is gaining steam or it has always had it, but is becoming a more openly accepted idea nowadays but its a long way from the mainstream.

I don't think we could possibly fathom how being an automaton would work. You wouldn't have your own thoughts, feelings or emotions. Everything would be directed by God. We just have no idea how not having free will would work.

I think the other posters covered it fairly well; just because there is no choice doesn't mean there can't be the illusion of choice. Even some dictatorships have elections, after all.

 

[gord44]

I think the other posters covered it fairly well; just because there is no choice doesn't mean there can't be the illusion of choice. Even some dictatorships have elections, after all.

The best prisons have no walls and the inmates are the guards and all that.