Is Free Will the ultimate sin?

[Dragons87]

"Free will" is such a wishy-washy concept, and often triggers high-and-mighty discussions that I don't feel are practical to our everyday lives.

I prefer to consider the issue as simply "a matter of choice". Choosing is a simply a matter of, "I have a decision to make. I have various options. I choose one."

It is as simple as deciding how to drive from A to B in the quickest way, or what to have for dinner in a restaurant. These are not controversial issues, and no one will have an argument with you about your true freedom to choose between steak and salad.

In my opinion we use exactly the same faculty when we make our "moral" or "religious" decisions. I walk past a homeless person. Do I:
a) Give money
b) Walk past
c) Chat with him/her
etc.

Or, I am married but there's this is really pretty girl who's winking at me. Do I:
a) Wink back and start a conversation
b) Go home to my wife

The key issue in the question of "free will" I don't think is whether we have any "real" will. From the simplest of everyday-life issues to the most agonising moral choices, we always have options.

I think the key issue when it comes to choosing is, "Which factors will affect how I choose? How strong will that factor be?" We make subconscious value judgments like that every day. It is what we allow ourselves to be affected by that is the main point.

Common factors affecting our judgment include:
- Our religious beliefs;
- Our socio-economic background;
- Our education;
- Our family background;
- Our hormones;
- Past experience;
- Our hopes and fears;
- Anticipated consequences;
- Our appetite for risk-taking.

Some factors weigh in more than others, and we weigh them all up differently.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Whether our deeds are predestined or our own choice, what matters is our deeds.

Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.

Ecc. 12:13

 

[Zoness]

Free will seems to only have one effect, namely giving people the ability to choose to sin and hence suffer. It doesn't actually contribute anything good to the creation.

Whether our deeds are predestined or our own choice, what matters is our deeds.

Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.

Ecc. 12:13

If God hadn't created us with free will we wouldn't have difficulty keeping his commandments.

 

[gord44]

When I was a solid christian, calvinism and the doctrines of election and grace were the only things that made sense when I read the bible. its even more clear when I see all this free will talk on here.

 

[gord44]

If God hadn't created us with free will we wouldn't have difficulty keeping his commandments.

According to the bible, it would be impossible to keep his commandments with or without free will. That why free will Christianity makes no sense.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

The best way to use free will is to not do evil, and to not even intend evil against other persons. That is freedom. Evil isn't part of freedom. Evil is delusory and destructive.

Well in that case, I can say with some confidence that I know how to use my freedom properly, by not infringing upon those of others. But that is all "filthy rags ", according to Christian orthodoxy.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

When I was a solid christian, calvinism and the doctrines of election and grace were the only things that made sense when I read the bible. its even more clear when I see all this free will talk on here.

Well, Calvinism may make some sense, but it also turns God into a Lovecraftian Horror, and Christianity into some sort of theistic Stalinism.

 

[Inkfingers]

Question in topic. This is a theme I've discovered when I re-read the Christian creation story. From a Christian perspective, it seems we were created with the ability to make choices and Adam and Eve made the wrong ones condemning humanity.

Often I am approached with "Well its your choice, you can believe in God and follow his rules or you can suffer for eternity". There is no equal weighting to these choices; if most decisions we make are evil by virtue of a "sin nature", then why even be allowed free will? Just so God can watch us fail? I do not understand this.

If so many are hell-bound we might as well have just been automatons, since at least people wouldn't experience conscious torment for eternity, as Christians believe.

I'm curious of what Christians have to say but also what other religions who believe in some form of otherworldly sin have to say as well.

Heresy Alert:

There is no such thing as "Freewill". It is a vain falacy that cannot exist in a genuinely ordered universe - because existence means structure, and structure means order, and order means cause and effect.......and cause and effect means that everything (and I do mean everthing that happens - including every thought, feeling and desire) is caused in such a way that it could never have happened any other way.

All is fate.

 

[prov1810]

Heresy Alert:

There is no such thing as "Freewill". It is a vain falacy that cannot exist in a genuinely ordered universe - because existence means structure, and structure means order, and order means cause and effect.......and cause and effect means that everything (and I do mean everthing that happens - including every thought, feeling and desire) is caused in such a way that it could never have happened any other way.

All is fate.

One the one hand, we make is-ought distinctions, we always consider alternatives, and our answers raise more questions, so our minds remain free. On the other hand, we always assume determinism in considering how our choices will play out.

 

[danny ski]

The choice is the foundation of Judaism and, by default, Christianity. The problem is most Christians somehow skipped this teaching. Hence, I see these free will threads all the time.
Deuteronomy 30:19-20New Living Translation (NLT)

19 “Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live! 20 You can make this choice by loving the Lord your God, obeying him, and committing yourself firmly to him. This[a] is the key to your life. And if you love and obey the Lord, you will live long in the land the Lord swore to give your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

 

[gord44]

Well, Calvinism may make some sense,

Indeed. But it answers zoness concerns about the whole free will to choose Jesus. A person, biblically, can't choose Jesus.

but it also turns God into a Lovecraftian Horror, and Christianity into some sort of theistic Stalinism.

But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.....

 

[JackofSpades]

If we assume annihilation and end of existence for condemned ones, not eternal torment, then predestination is not so horrible. In that scenario, God gives all mankind one life, and for chosen ones, two.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Well, I don't think the question "shall the pot question the potter" is as rhethorical as Paul intended. Not if the pot happens to be sentient and sapient.

If we were to create genuine artificial intelligences, it would be perfectly within their rights to question their makers - and utterly unacceptable for us to create some of them for the explicit purpose of suffering indefinitely.

Here's the thing: God's morality may be utterly alien, and his power may render him unassailable. But that does not render him anything less of a Lovecraftian horror to us in the aforementioned Calvinist scenario- quite the contrary.

 

[CryOfALion]

Well, I don't think the question "shall the pot question the potter" is as rhethorical as Paul intended. Not if the pot happens to be sentient and sapient.

If we were to create genuine artificial intelligences, it would be perfectly within their rights to question their makers - and utterly unacceptable for us to create some of them for the explicit purpose of suffering indefinitely.

Here's the thing: God's morality may be utterly alien, and his power may render him unassailable. But that does not render him anything less of a Lovecraftian horror to us in the aforementioned Calvinist scenario- quite the contrary.

Can you see 4,000,000,000 into the future?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Can you see 4,000,000,000 into the future?

I don't need to.

 

[Zoness]

Retaining and ego or identity for eternity sounds excruciating to comprehend, I definitely agree with that.

 

[gord44]

Retaining and ego or identity for eternity sounds excruciating to comprehend, I definitely agree with that.

Can't say I disagree with you. Eternity in itself, good or bad, sounds meh.

 

[CryOfALion]

I don't need to.

You may need to, in order to understand why people suffer, why good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people, and why His actions make no sense to many people.

If you have myopia, you can't possibly understand why things like this happen, and why God would allow it. Creation, and the intricacies of the evolution of events is advanced chaos theory (mathematical, not philosophical.) One person lying can cause tremendous affects on the world. Being able perceive the trajectory and intent of decisions now - with billions of years of hindsight - is important in the execution of activities in response.

Most humans can only think ahead as far as their hand will reach, or in a better case scenario, think past 200 years in the future. That isn't nearly enough time to consider how everything is intricately connected. Synchronicity.

 

[Zoness]

You may need to, in order to understand why people suffer, why good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people, and why His actions make no sense to many people.

If you have myopia, you can't possibly understand why things like this happen, and why God would allow it. Creation, and the intricacies of the evolution of events is advanced chaos theory (mathematical, not philosophical.) One person lying can cause tremendous affects on the world. Being able perceive the trajectory and intent of decisions now - with billions of years of hindsight - is important in the execution of activities in response.

Most humans can only think ahead as far as their hand will reach, or in a better case scenario, think past 200 years in the future. That isn't nearly enough time to consider how everything is intricately connected. Synchronicity.

This is sort of the crux of my problem with Christianity; things simply happening because "God said so, so deal with it" is not a sufficient answer. Sure, the butterfly effect and all but the phrasing of your post seems to indicate that free or even limited free will is not the case; that God dictates our actions.

So why are we responsible for anything on the cosmic stage?

 

[CryOfALion]

This is sort of the crux of my problem with Christianity; things simply happening because "God said so, so deal with it" is not a sufficient answer. Sure, the butterfly effect and all but the phrasing of your post seems to indicate that free or even limited free will is not the case; that God dictates our actions.

So why are we responsible for anything on the cosmic stage?

There is no such thing as free will for imperfect created entities. We all have limited will - very limited. God does not give free will to unholy/imperfect creatures. The only entities the at have free will are holy creatures, and they align their will with God's, so this is a paradox.

Omniscience does not invalidate responsibility. Our "will" is marginalized to choice on who to follow and worship. Even the Enemies are on leashes, and do not have free will (Job.)

And, it isn't a "god did it" apologetic. Humans are myopic, and cannot see how one thing will lead to another - like oppression and hardship. None of us can substantiate our imaginations of the possible future, namely because a future is not a guarantee for anyone.

This shouldn't be such a taboo and offensive issue. Parents often tell their children to do/not to do something without the child fully understanding the reasons for it. Why would you think you know better than an entity that has lived for a google of years, especially if that entity is holy? You dont. Neither do I.

And, keep in mind God could always delight in our torture, and allow entities to destroy us with no hope for promises. He would be well within His right to do so. It is serious business to reject or admonish the God of gods/King of kings. And, yet we have His patience - and He even let's some of us curse Him and blame him for things HUMANS do to themselves.