Is Free Will the ultimate sin?

[gord44]

It's also something to consider that God doesn't need a lawyer to defend his actions. I find that with arminian/freewill thought. They always want God to seem so nice. From a calvinist view, God doesn't need puny human defences. He's God and does what ever he wants. So to speak.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

It's also something to consider that God doesn't need a lawyer to defend his actions. I find that with arminian/freewill thought. They always want God to seem so nice. From a calvinist view, God doesn't need puny human defences. He's God and does what ever he wants. So to speak.

As I said: theistic Stalinism. The Leader, the Father is Always Right.

 

[rick357]

As I said: theistic Stalinism. The Leader, the Father is Always Right.

So you simply dont like the idea that a creator has power over his creation....instead you believe your opinion should have equal merrit to his....this sounds no differant than Adam in the "myth" as you have called it...so you must decide as he did...this is your will when you decide if he is right or you are....he offers his life to those who would choose it over their own...
.this earth is purgatory where those who are against his light have a moment of mercy to change and align themselves with their creator...a day is coming when all his creation will be brought into the light of his presance as it was created to be...when this happens those who have refused the light he has offered...having nothing in themselves but the darkness of self will be destroyed

 

[CryOfALion]

As I said: theistic Stalinism. The Leader, the Father is Always Right.

Is that so bad if, in fact, the Father actually is always right?

A lot of the world economies over our history would work perfectly with a perfect leader, and fail otherwise. And, there are a lot of world economies that are meant to work perfectly with a imperfect leader, and fail with a perfect leader.

Capitalism would be pointless - even detrimental if run by a perfect leader in an (assumed) perfect society. It works famously right now, and in different forms always has.

Communism fails all time time unless the leader is perfect (and, the society is perfect.)

 

[JackofSpades]

Is that so bad if, in fact, the Father actually is always right?

I think philoshopically there is no problem thinking that all-knowing god or God is always right, it is rather natural conclusion after believing in omniscient god.

However, if this leads to subsequent conclusion that church is always right, or that certain interpretation of Bible is always right, then I do have problem with it. I have not enough faith in theories or institutions to believe that it was even possible for them to represent accurately god. Momentarily perhaps, they can be in line with gods will and nature, but that should never be assumed by default being their constant state. *enter tragic historical examples here*

I think individual person is better off trying to figure his/hers own way to knowing gods will than by submitting to authority claiming to represent opinion of god.

 

[CryOfALion]

I think philoshopically there is no problem thinking that all-knowing god or God is always right, it is rather natural conclusion after believing in omniscient god.

However, if this leads to subsequent conclusion that church is always right, or that certain interpretation of Bible is always right, then I do have problem with it. I have not enough faith in theories or institutions to believe that it was even possible for them to represent accurately god. Momentarily perhaps, they can be in line with gods will and nature, but that should never be assumed by default being their constant state. *enter tragic historical examples here*

I think individual person is better off trying to figure his/hers own way to knowing gods will than by submitting to authority claiming to represent opinion of god.

There is a fine line between an image and an entity.

There is only one God.

That is as far as I will go.

 

[JackofSpades]

There is a fine line between an image and an entity.

There is only one God.

Would you please explain what are the conclusions about these statements? These statements alone can mean thousand things.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Is that so bad if, in fact, the Father actually is always right?

That depends on what "being right" actually means.
If it's just "might makes right", then yes, it is extremely bad, because "good" then becomes the random pronouncement of an autocrat (who just might delight in the eternal torment of billions of sapient beings).
If, however, "being right" refers to a more tangible, less random norm of benevolence and non-harm, then it might in fact be a good thing - because it'd mean that no sapient being will experience endless agony in the name of "glory", after being created for that specific purpose.

Capitalism would be pointless - even detrimental if run by a perfect leader in an (assumed) perfect society. It works famously right now, and in different forms always has.

That's a different topic altogether, but unless you equate "fewer people accumulating an ever-increasing share of the collective wealth while there's less and less left for the vast majority of mankind, with pollution and overconsumption endangering the entire ecosphere" with "working famously", I don't think I share your assessment.

Communism fails all time time unless the leader is perfect (and, the society is perfect.)

Now THIS may be closer to the mark (although I'd even contest this notion).
Ideologically speaking, capitalism and communism are basically two sides of the same coin, drawing upon the same dysfunctional relationship with the ecosphere and its non-renewable resources.

 

[Jesse2014]

It's also something to consider that God doesn't need a lawyer to defend his actions. I find that with arminian/freewill thought. They always want God to seem so nice. From a calvinist view, God doesn't need puny human defences. He's God and does what ever he wants. So to speak.

No, he does not.

What right do we have to question God. We are mere human.

 

[Jesse2014]

As I said: theistic Stalinism. The Leader, the Father is Always Right.

YES HE IS

 

[CryOfALion]

Would you please explain what are the conclusions about these statements? These statements alone can mean thousand things.

Maybe your are used to double speak, but I am not doing that.

The statement meant one thing when I said it: that there is a fine line between an image, and an entity. And, there is only one God.

 

[CryOfALion]

That depends on what "being right" actually means.
If it's just "might makes right", then yes, it is extremely bad, because "good" then becomes the random pronouncement of an autocrat (who just might delight in the eternal torment of billions of sapient beings).
If, however, "being right" refers to a more tangible, less random norm of benevolence and non-harm, then it might in fact be a good thing - because it'd mean that no sapient being will experience endless agony in the name of "glory", after being created for that specific purpose.

I am not for 50 shades of "right," because that isn't righteousness at all, it is just perspective. Right is right - truth, and so on - with no in betweens, and subjectivity. There exist that righteousness that isn't subjected to bending to perspective. What if the Father Was Always Right - Always true?

That's a different topic altogether, but unless you equate "fewer people accumulating an ever-increasing share of the collective wealth while there's less and less left for the vast majority of mankind, with pollution and overconsumption endangering the entire ecosphere" with "working famously", I don't think I share your assessment.

That is capitalism: a pyramid race to be those few at the capstone who gets to watch all of that. And, it is working famously, especially when the population has a serf mentality, and is more focused on racial and political minutia rather than what it's country is doing to its future. Very easy to work in those conditions, and capitalism works famously.

Now THIS may be closer to the mark (although I'd even contest this notion).
Ideologically speaking, capitalism and communism are basically two sides of the same coin, drawing upon the same dysfunctional relationship with the ecosphere and its non-renewable resources.

Yes but one will not work with a perfect leader (capitalism,) and one must have a perfect leader to work (communism.) This is why the States have a reserve currency, and Russia has been a second rate super nation waiting on its chance to find capitalistic freedom with a smidgen of old Russia (BRIC nations and reserve rival currency.)

 

[Jesse2014]

And to those people who call fearful believers who obey out of fear slaves. Whether you believe it or not, everyone is a slave. We either are a slave to this world or to God.

 

[CryOfALion]

And to those people who call fearful believers who obey out of fear, slaves. Whether you believe it or not, everyone is a slave. We either are a slave to this world or to God.

That last part is perfectly true - everyone is a slave to something.

Most often, it is self, or money - also out of fear. More people than you may realize follow a god out of relationship, and not fear. People are not prizes to rush into relationships with.

 

[gord44]

The most common thing people are slaves to is their own ideas.

 

[CryOfALion]

The most common thing people are slaves to is their own ideas.

Yep. Self.

Ego is intoxicating.

 

[JackofSpades]

The most common thing people are slaves to is their own ideas.

Or feelings. But I think there are no such thing as being totally free for human being. To be absolutely free would mean being allmighty.

Freedom is rather abstract thing. I think it practically only exists as opposite to being bound to something.

 

[CryOfALion]

Christ said his yoke is easy - an allusion to a husbandman and his flock/animals. So, we are slaves to Him - even though the "yoke" will feel like anything but.

The angel that appeared to John told him he was his fellowservent to God.

God said you cannot serve two masters: mammoth or Him. In reality, this is absolutely true. Gods are almost by definition zealous/"jealous," and their followers are usually discouraged from serving multiple gods. Even employers do not like people having two bosses, and it is illegal to work two full time jobs (you can work five part time jobs, or one horrible job for 100 hours a week.)

It is very true no human is free, not even free of himself. The only things I believe are free are holy entities, and since they are holy they submit themselves to the Most High anyway.

 

[gord44]

Or feelings. But I think there are no such thing as being totally free for human being. To be absolutely free would mean being allmighty.

Freedom is rather abstract thing. I think it practically only exists as opposite to being bound to something.

Indeed.

What I meant by people being slaves to their ideas is almost anything, including God. When a person says they are a slave to God, they are actually a slave to the idea that they are a slave to God.

And yes no one is ever totally free. Meditation and other things can help though as you start to realize your thoughts and ideas are separate from yourself.

 

[SeventhValley]

Some will be saved in this life some will go through the purifying fire instead. Ultimately all will be reconciled by and through the omega point.

So basically the universe is in a evolution and will eventually evolve and be able to communicate with it's maker. This process is more painful for some than others but ultimately all will evolve.

At least that is the myth I am going with.