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Is Free Will the ultimate sin?

Erth

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The problem I see is apparent; we are able and in many theological circles, always, going to choose behavior contrary to God's will and must be punished for it. Not having free will would have eliminated this. Of course the automaton argument would arise but would that not be favorable to eternal torture?

I would take annihilationism over being an automaton but not eternal, conscious torture over it. I'm curious about your thoughts.

The punishment part is theologically the most difficult part to understand, especially since on this issue, theologies differ greatly. In what is generally known as Western theology, embodied by Protestantism and Catholicism alike, divine justice and satisfaction are important concepts. Those concepts were the underlying reasons for the doctrine of purgatory. It was said that God had to punish the small sins even of those who will eventually end up in God's Kingdom, because noone who has any impurity can enter into it. If they had not yet compensated for their evil deeds by doing good deeds, they had to be punished after death, and it was said that this is necessary even if they had confessed their sins and were since then walking on the Way. The underlying idea of divine justice and satisfaction lives on in Protestantism just as much as in Catholicism, even though Protestants do not believe in purgatory. What the idea of satisfaction of divine justice does is that it holds up false ideas of God's personality, so that we may imagine that God is a tyrant who is always ready to punish us should we do anything wrong.

In what is often called Eastern Christianity, in the Orthodox churches, there is no purgatory, and neither does God who loves mankind call for the satisfaction of divine justice the way that Protestantism does. In the old covenant God did punish sins in various ways. But punishment was never an end in itself. From the very beginning God wanted the best for man, and the best for man is to receive good things from God, because the only really good things come from God. Not silver, nor gold, nor money, nor success in worldy matters, but everything that brings about our communion with God. And God sent His only begotten Son, who Himself is God, for a new covenant with mankind, where we are not saved by following the law, but by making the choice to wrestle with God like Jacob did, to be Israel, His people, by conversation with God and by using powers given by God to storm forward in desire to be in His Kingdom. Doing the right thing is still recommended; good deeds are to a certain extent the steps on the Way, and those who desire communion with God must not follow their own ways, but use their will to do good, even if that in itself does not save us. Those who have confessed their sins and entered on the Way to the Kingdom will be purified by God's uncreated Grace forever and ever, and there is no need after death for the satisfaction of divine justice in this scenario. It is God's love that saves us. We are finite beings and we can never be perfect. We cannot be infinite like God, and we can never be pure enough that we can say that we have a right to His Kingdom. We are always dependent on God for our salvation and blessedness, and the purification of the righteous in His Kingdom never ends.

As far as deeds are concerned, it is enough that we fight the fight unceasingly, that we use our own will to do God's will. Then, on the last day before God's tribunal, we may have done more good than evil because we let God into our lives and carried out His will, not because of our own merits. As a gift of God, of God's Grace, His Holy Spirit, we will be saved. Even if we do not answer God's calling, God will still pour out His Grace over us: He lets rain fall on righteous and sinner alike. But if we choose to go our own way, we will perceive God's Grace as punishment in what is also known as hell.

It is difficult to understand why Protestants are clinging to notions of satisfaction of divine justice in theological matters, but perhaps the only Protestants who deny that false idea are the extremely liberal Protestants who think that their own fanciful ideas of what it means to be a Christian are good enough. In their view, God's love can mean anything that gratifies them and satisfies their own ideas of goodness, so in a way neither have they abandoned false ideas of justice; to them, standing up for the Lord and his words may not be charitable enough if it offends the world, and many things that Christians are called to believe in do offend the world; there are cases in which it just cannot be helped. Other Protestants claim that God takes good care in this life of His elect and brings them material wealth and comfort, but this is old testament belief as we see it for example in Job's thoughts in the beginning of the book dedicated to him, thoughts that later on he had to denounce because God clearly said that's not how it works. In other words, that is yet another false idea of justice which in any case cannot be attributed to God.

As a short answer to your post I will say this: It is true that we can choose to do deeds contrary to God's will. But what happens if we do not make an active choice? Then we are cold and closed up in the presence of God's love. Passivity will never lead us right, but it is by doing something of our own free will that we can embark on the Way. We have to make an active choice to be in His presence. As grown up men we have to come to Church to be a limb in His Body, to confess our sins and fight the fight unceasingly to remain in His light, to turn to Him always, to converse with Him and do His will to inherit His Kingdom. God created us for this purpose and it is by exercising our free will that we can do our part, step by step. Passivity does not lead to God, but willed action may.
 
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chapmic

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Also keep in mind that modern psychology has pretty much dispelled the notion of a unified, essential, non-contradictory "self" that qualifies as a permanent and unchanging identity.
And that biology has long since disproved vitalism, i.e. the notion that biological life depends on an immaterial "life-force" such as the soul.



How can science prove we do not have a soul?
 
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Supreme

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I think the other posters covered it fairly well; just because there is no choice doesn't mean there can't be the illusion of choice. Even some dictatorships have elections, after all.

I think that's quite a poor analogy. Whereas most people living in a dictatorship could see through the sham, most people in this world actually fully believe that we do have free will.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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How can science prove we do not have a soul?
Well, that largely depends on how you define the "soul".
(I've found that few people seem to have any well-developed idea of what they mean by that term, even if they firmly believe in it.)

If you believe that the soul is what separates dead matter from living organisms, and that this spirit basically gives life to formerly inanimate shells, then the refutation of vitalism HAS disproved the "soul".

And if you believe that your personality and your individual consciousness constitutes the "soul" as an unchanging, eternal "essence" of your self - then again, modern psychology and the neurosciences have pretty much put the nail in that hypothesis's coffin.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I don't think we could possibly fathom how being an automaton would work. You wouldn't have your own thoughts, feelings or emotions. Everything would be directed by God. We just have no idea how not having free will would work.
I like how it was stated elsewhere here, as noted in the following (from https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2014/11/19/mortal-sin-reflective-faith-and-the-search-for-assurance/ ):

Why would anyone choose to be Judas? Karl Barth called this the “impossible possibility.” And yet we each know that we are given in Christ the freedom to make this choice. And we know that, under the right circumstances, we might indeed—God forbid!—make this choice. Who hasn’t read C. S. Lewis’s The Great Divorce and seen himself reflected in the various characters who choose to return to the “grey town”? The door to hell may be locked only from the inside, but that doesn’t mean that I will decide to unlock the door.

How do I know that I will choose God? How do I know that I am choosing God at this present moment? How do I know that I have truly repented of my sins? There are no second chances, traditional teaching teaches us. Not even the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory offers a second chance. Life is a single choosing. When we die and meet the living God, we will then discover which choice we have made.

The problem is free will. Whatever one wants to say about the bondage of unbelievers to sin, the New Testament is clear that believers are given a new freedom in the Spirit. We are given a freedom to say “yes” to God, to obey his commandments, to love, to follow Christ unto death. But apparently we are also given a freedom to say “no” to all the above. Even for the Spirit-filled, born-from-above believer, hell remains a possibility, an impossible, terrifying possibility. “For it is impossible,” declares the author of the Letter to the Hebrews, “to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit” (Heb 6:4).​
 
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