Is forgiveness fair to the victim

JD16 said:

Well, at least purgatory would give some the relief of justice that they seek

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...judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. -- James 2

They're seeking something that God has declared is His and His alone. That can't be a good thing for them.

God absolutely intends not to punish those who are repentant and faithful. Even if there is purgatory, it's likely to be worse for those who die unrepentantly unforgiving than for those who are repentant of their past sins.

FireDragon76 said:

Our relationship to God is bound up in our relationship to others, there is not a complete separation between the two. Every sin against our neighbor is ultimately a sin against God, since our neighbor is made in his image.

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Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight; so you are right in your verdict and justified when you judge. -- Psalm 51

Every sin is, actually, a sin only against God.

Essentially, nobody else's feelings of offense have any standing in His judgment.

If a person has a gripe over something someone else has done, he'd better just get over it. God doesn't care about that:

...and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us. -- Matthew 8

That "as" means "to the same extent."

Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee?

And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. Matthew 18

This is the only parable Jesus immediately explained to His audience. Some people here had better read that last sentence very carefully.

RDKirk said:

...judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. -- James 2

They're seeking something that God has declared is His and His alone. That can't be a good thing for them.

God absolutely intends not to punish those who are repentant and faithful. Even if there is purgatory, it's likely to be worse for those who die unrepentantly unforgiving than for those who are repentant of their past sins.

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I understand that is the Christian view on such matters, the whole forgive and forget thing,....it's basically going against human instinct/nature, I guess this is what it means by sins of the flesh....but nobody said it's easy to be a Christian, much less a good one,....bearing your own cross along the journey of life.

historyprincess710 said:

In Luke 17:3, Jesus tells us very clearly that we are to forgive someone who sins against us IF he repents. He does NOT tell us to forgive everyone, including those who have absolutely no remorse and fully intend to continue abusing others and behaving badly. That would be preposterous and contradictory.

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A. Strawman argument. Nobody here is talking about forgiveness of ongoing offense.
B. Nobody will necessarily know if an offender has repented. If the offender goes to him in apology, fine. But that might not happen, and forgiveness from the Lord does not require it.
C. Yes, Jesus does command each one of us to forgive every offender, period, even if we are never repaid. And He does so in the strongest possible languages. See His last words in Matthew 18.

Considering the harshness of Jesus' words, and how often Jesus speaks of forgiveness, it is madness to mince along legalities of forgiveness after reading Jesus' strong words.

Did he not say, "if you don't forgive men there trespasses against you your Father in heaven cannot forgive your trespasses" That is pretty cut and dry.
Jesus set the example and said follow me. He then received the whip the cross and the crown of thorns etc and while hanging on the cross said, "Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing"
So I was molested as a youth by another man. I forgive that man because I understand that the devil is very real and things in this mans life drove him to do what he did. He obeyed the devil and the devil laughed. But if he ever comes to Christ then that old man will be dead and all things will become new. I hope one day to see this man in heaven. I don't wish hell on any man.
I sinned lots before I came to Jesus. I hurt some people that I loved. If God is willing to forgive me why shouldn't I forgive those who trespass against me?
Hitler was a man hated by most of the world. He was raised in a sick environment and fell prey to his own demons that used him to destroy millions of lives and even still today there are those who follow his teachings. But if he was on his knees before the Christ a minute before he died wouldn't Christ's blood cleans him? My bible says it would and I believe my bible.
If I had been Hitler, raised by his parents, inherited the sins of his fathers to the 3rd or forth generation, was a member of his school, suffered everything he suffered as a youth,, was a member of his church, etc etc etc would I not have done what he did? I mean if every aspect of his life was my life I would do as he did and be controlled by his demons. Only by the grace of God we are who we are and know him who died for us.
When I was young my dad was a distant haunted man. I asked my mom why he was like that and she explained all that he had suffered that made him who he was. That has never left me and those who are unforgiving should try to understand how it would be to walk in the shes of those who hurt them.
A mans spirit is locked away inside their heart and he is lead by so many thoughts and emotions through out his life. It is only the blood of Jesus that can set us free from the chains that bind us. Unforgiveness is a chain that will drag us to hell with bitterness and hatred. Give it to Jesus and let it go. The freedom is there for the asking.

"If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

This too is from Matthew 18.

About not being forgiven if you don't forgive others, that's a works-oriented salvation, plain and simple. Jesus was preaching law to those whose hearts had been hardened by it. Furthermore, in the parable, the servant made a PROMISE to repay back what was owed the other servant. He REPENTED, he promised to change.

And when Jesus said, "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do," he was talking about people like the Roman soldier who declared him the Son of God and REPENTED. The Pharisees KNEW who Jesus was, and they hated him. This is the unpardonable sin.

What Hitler experienced and what other people experience does not excuse them for their evil behavior. There are other, beloved people, who were in similar situations and turned out to be the complete opposite. Hitler and those like him do not have my sympathy.

Besides, during the Nuremberg Trials, one Nazi who was being tried for war crimes claimed he wasn't responsible for what he did, that he was persuaded to do what he did. That's someone who does not want to take responsibility for their actions.

The biblical thing to do for someone who has done wrong is not to immediately forgive them but pray that they come to repentance and forgive them when they do.

Plus, we actually CAN know if someone genuinely repents. The bible says to look for their fruit. Is what they do consistent with what they say?

Zoii said:

There is something to be said for the Buddhist concept of Karma. It may not be Christian but I pray its true. I find it really hard to reconcile that someone can commit a heinous crime, leave the victim to suffer for years into their life if not their whole life…along with the victims family and close friends. Yet all the perpetrator has to do is say Im sorry God.


Great!!! that evil person is forgiven for all they have done. So I have some questions. If you’re forgiven does that mean you don’t need to feel guilty? If you’re forgiven does that alleviate any obligations to your victim? And what if its true…while the perpetrator is forgiven the victim isn’t alleviated of their suffering. For so many it’s a life sentence. Where is the fairness in that?


Buddhists will say that if your evil then evil will befall you and if you’re a good person then good will come your way. I can see practical elements to this quite easily and it fits with me.

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We are to FORGIVE as we want God to FORGIVE US.
Look into your soul deeply and be honest, how many times have you wronged and trespassed against God?
The WAGES of SIN is DEATH. Physical and Spiritual DEATH.
We are ALL guilty before GOD.
So the question is, do you want God to forgive YOU when you ask?

God will treat you the same as you treat others. You must all realize we all deserve DEATH. We all put Christ on that Cross, and NONE OF US are better then anyone else.

Clear your HEART, forgive ANYONE who comes and asks. 70X7. In other words, as often as they ask. The Lord will give us the same in return. But it will be measured TO YOU as you have measured it to others! Be WARNED!

Zoii said:

There is something to be said for the Buddhist concept of Karma. It may not be Christian but I pray its true. I find it really hard to reconcile that someone can commit a heinous crime, leave the victim to suffer for years into their life if not their whole life…along with the victims family and close friends. Yet all the perpetrator has to do is say Im sorry God.


Great!!! that evil person is forgiven for all they have done. So I have some questions. If you’re forgiven does that mean you don’t need to feel guilty? If you’re forgiven does that alleviate any obligations to your victim? And what if its true…while the perpetrator is forgiven the victim isn’t alleviated of their suffering. For so many it’s a life sentence. Where is the fairness in that?


Buddhists will say that if your evil then evil will befall you and if you’re a good person then good will come your way. I can see practical elements to this quite easily and it fits with me.

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PS. You want FAIR? Then it's HELL for all of us.

How many times must I say that the bible does not say forgiveness is a free pass to keep sinning and not hold people accountable?

I wonder where folks get the idea that Christians have to be meek and mild, silently enduring mistreatment, tolerating anything anybody else does, and timidly standing by while abusers trample all over them and other innocent victims. Since when is it a sin to speak out against evil? This is what our abusers want us to believe, and they just love throwing it back in our faces anytime we protest their behavior. They provoke us to anger, they cause untold pain and suffering, and then when we finally speak up, they smugly inform us that we're not acting like "good Christians." This is nonsense. Abusers would just love for us to back off and be quiet while they do anything they want and get away with murder.

Satan will always try to use our righteousness against us, to get us to question our faith, and to separate us from God. This is just another one of his tricks. What kind of awesome, wonderful, All-Good God would our Father be if he actually wanted us to allow wickedness to operate unchecked in our families and our lives? This concept is preposterous, and contradicts the perfect goodness of the Lord. Our God is All-Good, and the devil is all-bad. They are diametrically opposed for all eternity. God instructs his saints to take a stand against evil and fight the good fight, not to keep silent and hide in the closet.

TAKE HEED TO YOURSELVES. IF YOUR BROTHER SINS AGAINST YOU, REBUKE HIM; AND IF HE REPENTS, FORGIVE HIM....LUKE 17:3 NKJV

When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul....Ezekiel 33: 8-9 KJV

Warn a divisive person once, then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned....Titus 3:10-11

Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own conceit....Proverbs 26:5 KJV

Then will I teach trangressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee....Psalm 51: 13KJV

Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.....1 Timothy 5:20NIV

BEHOLD, I GIVE YOU THE AUTHORITY TO TRAMPLE ON SERPENTS AND SCORPIONS, AND OVER ALL THE POWER OF THE ENEMY, AND NOTHING SHALL BY ANY MEANS HURT YOU. NEVERTHELESS, DO NOT REJOICE IN THIS, THAT THE SPIRITS ARE SUBJECT TO YOU, BUT RATHER REJOICE BECAUSE YOUR NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN....Luke 10:19:20 NKJV

Zoii, don't listen to those who say God won't forgive you if you don't forgive others. They either don't know their bibles or are lying. Forgiving others to be forgiven is works oriented. Jesus directed these words to those whose hearts had been hardened by the law.

Forgiveness from God and from men only requires GENUINE repentance, nothing more.

I'd also like to quote now from someone whom I think said it best.

"Does it seem harsh or un-Christian-like to you to refer to a child rapist as a pervert and a dirtbag? Or to call someone who would terrorize her own 2-year old to the point that he can't catch his breath and is gasping for air, and then laugh at his panic, a sadist and a sociopath? Or to call a mother who stays married to the pedophile who raped her child, fails to do anything to protect that child, and then tops it all off by babysitting OTHER PEOPLE'S children and leaving them alone with the pervert so he can (and did) rape THEM too, a lowlife who belongs in the cell next to him? Is calling a baby-killer a "murderer" going to hurt his poor feelings? Is there even a name bad enough, or should I say "descriptive" enough, to call a mother who would set up her own child to be raped repeatedly by her husband, to keep him from focusing his attention on HER? What about a father who pimps out his children to his friends for money and beer? Or the jack*ss who has a fight with his girlfriend and then beats their 5-week old baby to death for spite - to get back at her? Or the parents who lock their child in a room for seven years, make her use a litter box for a bathroom, and starve her so badly that she weighs only 35 pounds when she finally dies?

Hey, they are what they are. I'm not here to help them feel good about themselves. Seriously, what else would you call them? What would be the politically correct way to refer to scum like this? "Slightly irresponsible"? "Child torture-challenged"? "Having low self-esteem which results in unintentional acting-out of their frustrations and beating the baby"? "Having boundary issues with sexually touching children"? "Being a little temperamental - sometimes resulting in accidentally going too far and killing a child"? Oh, please. Enough, already.

Someone who LIKES to see pain and gets their joy by making a helpless victim suffer IS a sadist. That's the definition of the word "sadist." A person who remorselessly and brutally inflicts his malice and violence on an innocent target, has absolutely no conscience or compassion about it, and in fact often then tries to use what he did to elicit sympathy for HIMSELF, IS a sociopath. That's what a sociopath IS. No, really. Look it up. Let's not disrespect the victims and minimize their experiences and pain by making up more pleasant sounding euphemisms to cover up their abusers' true natures. That sends a false message to victims and to the world - that what was done to them wasn't really so bad. But it WAS, so let's stop beating around the bush. Let's stand up and make our disapproval of and contempt for their abusers loud and clear. Tell it like it is.

Jesus certainly didn't pull any punches when he called the Pharisees just about every name there was in the book at the time. Hypocrites, snakes, brood of vipers, unclean, greedy, whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones, blind fools, full of wickedness, sons of hell (Matthew 23:13-33). He used the strongest possible language of his day to denounce them. He made an example of them. He spoke, not just directly to the Pharisees, but for the benefit of everyone else within earshot. Do you think the people who heard him got his point? Evil is evil. It is never un-Christian-like to tell the truth, nor is it un-Christian-like to use strong language when you tell it.

This is not a subject we need to be wishy-washy, calm, or easy-going about. We don't need to phrase it kindly lest we insult a dirtbag or offend his partners-in-crime. Using strong language to describe abusers and their enablers serves a purpose. It gets people's attention. It underscores for them just how disgusting, shameful, and, yes, EVIL, the behavior of these so-called "parents" is, and how disgusting, shameful, and EVIL the parents themselves are. It says if you protect an abuser by tolerating or minimizing abuse, then you are just as guilty as he is. It brings things that are often hushed-up or whispered about out into the open, and gives others the courage to stand up and tell it like it is, too. It makes a big deal out of something that many people would just as soon pretend isn't happening or isn't really that bad. It makes it UNACCEPTABLE to ACCEPT abuse. It drives home the point that abuse, and enabling abuse, is NOT "accidental." It is NOT something "they can't help." It is NOT a "mistake" or a "misunderstanding." It is DESPICABLE. It is INTENTIONAL, DELIBERATE, and supremely SELFISH. Abusers victimize others to get their own needs met, and their enablers allow it, and even encourage it, to make their own lives easier and to get their own needs met. It's a sick, twisted dynamic.

And they continue until they are exposed, or better yet, arrested. They continue until the silence is broken. They continue until we stop circumventing the issues, coddling them, walking on eggshells around them, and talking about them in nice, mild, smiley-face terms - terms that are vague, deceptive, and fail to present the TRUE picture and emphasize the gravity of it to the listener. It's not OUR fault if the truth is ugly."

Jesus was sinless, we are not. We need to be careful when throwing around labels that denigrate someone, merely because we are angry and because they do what people do by nature, behave badly. Sometimes very badly. People are capable of monsterous acts. Maybe modern society wants to sweep this deep truth under the rug in the name of a secular humanist ethic of human progress, but that's no excuse for us drinking the kool-aid.

Personally, I think the above perspective lacks any sense of compassion. Somebody that would stay married to a pedophile is likely damaged and compromised themselves. Being angry at that person is not just cruel, it's insane. The Dalai Lama has a wise saying about compassion I heard many years ago, the person that first benefits from compassion is yourself. Compassion and mercy, should be behind everything we do... for the sake of our own sanity.

You know, the real answer to all this isn't speculative theology. The real answer is Jesus Christ. He is the only person that can heal us. But as long as we rebel against him, to want justice on our terms, we will continue to be sick.

I've had to go through a lot in the past 7 years. I was raised with a lot of privilege and frankly spoiled, but I also lacked alot of things other people took for granted. I've lost my driver's license permanently for the most ridiculous reasons and I got told I couldn't be part of a religion that I deeply identified with. I had a cancer scare even, a spinal tap that left me with a bad back, and fribomyalgia and I have IBS and I can't eat alot of food people take for granted anymore.

And yet I can see how poisonous this quest for ultimate justice really is, and how much resentment eats up at the things in your life and corrupts everything good. Resentment is too much for me to carry, I need to put it in God's hands. I could not come to this realization myself, it was something that God had to him me over the head with it. But as Luther said, the old man has to be drowned daily because he is a good swimmer. So this Christian life is a life of vigilance and struggle- not for my acceptance by God but for my own sanity. But God can give us peace in the midst of that struggle.

I don't know a lot about how parole boards work, in detail.

I think - hypothetically - what matters is what the victim is trying to achieve. Is it to prevent anyone else becoming a victim? I don't think that's sin. Is it to make sure the criminal suffers as much as possible? That might be sin, depending on the situation.

But it's motivation that matters; what's in your heart.