Is forgiveness fair to the victim

FireDragon76

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The offended person may never see that. But that offender may wind up in heaven. Everyone suffers many offenses from others, and heaven will be full of repentant offenders. That will mean the unforgiving offended person is the one not fit to be in heaven with all those repentant offenders.

A process of purgation is the only solution I see. I actually would not be the only one to submit that "Purgatory" is a real possibility, there have been other Protestants that have done so. The early Luther seemed to have believed in it, until later in his life, when he had become more hostile to Rome, seemed to have dropped it. And I encountered a Wesleyan theologian that found the concept consistent with their doctrine of Christian perfection. C.S. Lewis seemed to have believed in it as well.

Another possibility is that we simply won't experience the same things in the next world, that people that cannot be reconciled will be invisible to each other . But I don't like that solution as much.
 
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Paidiske

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I could theologically cope with purgation as long as it is, in some sense, instantaneous transformation. The idea of "doing time" in purgatory - although it's acknowledged to somehow be timeless, but ykwim - is where it becomes problematic for me.
 
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RDKirk

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A process of purgation is the only solution I see.

Purgation only solves the issue of the offender's relationship with God, not his relationship with the one he offended.

There is nothing either the offender or God can do about that. Only the offender can give up being offended.
 
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JD16

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Purgation only solves the issue of the offender's relationship with God, not his relationship with the one he offended.

There is nothing either the offender or God can do about that. Only the offender can give up being offended.

Well, at least purgatory would give some the relief of justice that they seek

But victims do want to see punishment - and for that matter a punishment level that is consistent with the severity of the crime. This is on some way an acknowledgement of the suffering of the victim

Sounds like a satisfactory solution to all involved
 
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FireDragon76

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I could theologically cope with purgation as long as it is, in some sense, instantaneous transformation. The idea of "doing time" in purgatory - although it's acknowledged to somehow be timeless, but ykwim - is where it becomes problematic for me.

I'm definitely uncomfortable with the medieval Catholic doctrines concerning this.

The eastern Christian understanding is that repentance is difficult, and not completed in this lifetime (which is one reason they pray for the dead). Evangelicals that cling to a more synergistic or even legalistic understanding of repentance as a necessity need to understand for many people that is a completely unrealistic, impossible ideal. This kind of theology, to put it bluntly, is naive. And the difficult matters than Zoii brings up are good examples of this. It would be cruel indeed to deal with somebody who is traumatized and tell them their anger they were feeling was not valid. From a Lutheran standpoint I also would consider it confusing Law and Gospel.
 
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Dave-W

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So are you saying that forgiveness is only needed if the perpetrator has shown remorse and seeks forgiveness themselves?
When our Lord was being nailed to the cross by a unit of Roman soldiers, HE prayed "Father forgive them, they do not know what they are doing."

Did those soldiers that were killing him repent? Show remorse? Ask for forgiveness? Of course not. But HE forgave them anyway. And He is our example.
 
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FireDragon76

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Purgation only solves the issue of the offender's relationship with God, not his relationship with the one he offended.

There is nothing either the offender or God can do about that. Only the offender can give up being offended.

Our relationship to God is bound up in our relationship to others, there is not a complete separation between the two. Every sin against our neighbor is ultimately a sin against God, since our neighbor is made in his image.
 
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South Bound

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There is something to be said for the Buddhist concept of Karma. It may not be Christian but I pray its true.

Really? You pray that something so egregiously anti-God is true? Wow What in the world are they teaching you in your church?

I find it really hard to reconcile that someone can commit a heinous crime, leave the victim to suffer for years into their life if not their whole life…along with the victims family and close friends. Yet all the perpetrator has to do is say Im sorry God.

Not what the Bible teaches. Again, what in the world are they teaching you in your church?

If you’re forgiven does that mean you don’t need to feel guilty?

Christians shouldn't feel guilty because Christ has taken our guilt upon Himself.

It's fine for a Christian to feel shame, remorse, or embarrassment over your sin but when a Christian feels guilty, he's essentially telling God, "I don't believe you".

If you’re forgiven does that alleviate any obligations to your victim?

No.

And what if its true…while the perpetrator is forgiven the victim isn’t alleviated of their suffering. For so many it’s a life sentence. Where is the fairness in that?

God doesn't deal in "fair". God deals in justice. "Fair" is two children on a playground arguing about who's turn it is to go down the slide. As somebody else pointed out, you don't want God to be "fair".

Buddhists will say that if your evil then evil will befall you and if you’re a good person then good will come your way. I can see practical elements to this quite easily and it fits with me.

And if man was capable of being good, and there was not a Holy, Righteous, and Just God running the universe, that would be fine.

If you really believe what you've posted here, how is any of that consistent with your claim to be a Christian?

Oh thats great.... the evil one gets free to leave it all behind with Gods blessing while the victim is despised by god for not forgiving the evil person and feeling bitter

You're assuming that the victim is not also evil. Just because someone has been wrong in soe way that doesn't absolve the of their own sin.
 
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FatalHeart

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The Bible is clear that forgiveness only removes separation from God, not spiritual or physical consequences. The reason you think God just let's people get away with something are pastors teaching false doctrine about grace. Purgatory is also something I think the Holy Spirit disagrees with. XD It says in Romans 2 that there will be distress for distress, and else where that God cannot be mocked. The Buddhists keyed into this Biblical truth and like all forms of false prophets, don't attribute it the right way, but Karma is a good conceptualization of the principle. However, the Biblical truth about sin is that even with forgiveness, you will reap what you sow. The problem for us is that it is also in the next life. That's why you're supposed to fear God and obey Him. Every deed will be judged and every sin will recieve Just payment. So yeah, don't sin. Forgive because your debt has been paid and the merciful will recieve mercy. We are to bless when we are cursed so we can inherit a blessing. There's a judgement coming you are trying to buffer. XD
 
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There is something to be said for the Buddhist concept of Karma. It may not be Christian but I pray its true... Great!!! that evil person is forgiven for all they have done. So I have some questions. If you’re forgiven does that mean you don’t need to feel guilty? If you’re forgiven does that alleviate any obligations to your victim? And what if its true…while the perpetrator is forgiven the victim isn’t alleviated of their suffering. For so many it’s a life sentence. Where is the fairness in that?
To be candid, when I hear people (Christians) say something like this I often wonder if they have the proverbial log stuck in their eye.

Zoii, you do realize that you're a sinner, and that if God instituted the principles of Karma upon you, that your life would not actually be very peachy. Forgiveness isn't altogether fair - and that's a good thing Zoii. You're forgiven. YOU are. That's a good thing, it's not a fair thing. You don't deserve the forgiveness Christ gave you, yet He did. He did out of love and mercy. And by grace, not by works, so that you cannot boast - you are now forgiven. It's not my place to judge your heart Zoii, but my experience with people that often times have a hard time forgiving are people that have a hard time recognizing and acknowledging their own sin and recognition of what Christ truly did for them.

As for guilt. Guilt is something we typically produce ourselves. Conviction comes from the Holy Spirit. When YOU sin Zoii, you should feel conviction more than you should feel guilt. There is a distinction between the two. Conviction should compel you towards repentance and seeking forgiveness first and foremost from God, who you ultimately offended, and then also the people that your sin has affected. Because sin never affects just us. Guilt for the most part is self induced and is not from God.
 
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gabbi0408

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As a Catholic, our understanding is that yes, a person can come to be truly contrite for their offenses against another and be forgiven. When we harm others, we not only sin against our neighbor but also against God.

The offender can repent and seek God's forgiveness. This act forgives the eternal punishment due but not the temporal punishment. They will can and should seek to relieve the suffering they caused another, either by directly attempting to reconcile with the person they offended, or by offering their services to help others with the intent of reparations toward the offense. They can also make personal sacrifices and offer those up for the same intentions.

Eventually, their souls will be fully purified in purgatory, where the last vestiges of their sins will be purged.
 
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Zoii

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Really? You pray that something so egregiously anti-God is true? Wow What in the world are they teaching you in your church?
[This is] Not what the Bible teaches. Again, what in the world are they teaching you in your church?
If you really believe what you've posted here, how is any of that consistent with your claim to be a Christian?
You're assuming that the victim is not also evil. Just because someone has been wrong in soe way that doesn't absolve the of their own sin.
Fine - maybe Im not christian then. I dont do anything wrong. Im sick of hearing how someone evil at the point of death can say sorry and walk into the arms of god and leave a victim whos only fault is being a victim and finds it hard to move on yet that person is the one to go to hell. This is totally screwed up.
 
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Paidiske

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Zoii, is your real problem there the situation of the perpetrator, or the victim?

I hesitate to say much along this line because, as I noted above, everyone's path through this is highly individual, but if there is one thing I have learned in my recovery from abuse, it is that we do not know the end of our own stories.

When I was being abused was not the end of my story. When I was completely overwhelmed with PTSD was not the end of my story. Today, when I am relatively functional but bearing significant scars, is not the end of my story. The day my abuser dies, whenever that may be, and whatever state I'm in on that day, will not be the end of my story....

We can't judge our stories from the middle. We can only live them with hope.
 
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GandalfTheWise

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.... And just what does everyone mean when they say to forgive. You are asking the victims to say "Look I know you were evil, perhaps still are...I know you did me and my family terrible harm.... but thats Ok dont worry about it... dont feel bad your forgiven." I just dont know how that can be expected or achieved...and to add insult to it all if its not achieved then THATs the sin.

I get the point about about not hanging onto anger. But thats work the victim does on themselves in order to move forward, and doesnt have to involve some sort of absolving of the perpetrators sin.... surely the absolving part is Gods job. And what if the victimization is ongoing... is a wife being physically abused expected to forgive her husband every time he does it?

I think there are 4 concepts that are getting mingled in this discussion.

1. Forgiveness. This is not holding anger, pain, and bitterness in your head and heart and ongoing thoughts. It is releasing any owed debt so that it no longer has hold of you.
2. Restoration. This would be in the case the perpetrator has actually changed and proven it over time. A relationship could possibly be restored; or it might not be. If the perpetrator has not changed, an ongoing business as usual relationship should probably not exist with the victim. Sometimes separation and removal from the situation is called for.
3. Justice. This is a societal approach where people are protected from the perpetrator in some manner, be it separation, rehabilitation, or punishment. This is where calmer heads with authority can prevail.
4. Revenge. This is "I am consumed with anger toward you and I want you to suffer as much as your victims have."

Forgiveness is for the victim's good to move on with their lives. Holding on to pain, anger, or bitterness is not healthy emotionally or spiritually. In my opinion, it is in our own best interests to seek to forgive in all situations. As long as what happened occupies our thoughts and emotions, it still has a hold on us.

Restoration is where wisdom and discernment are called for. Sometimes complete separation and having nothing ever to do with the perpetrator is the wisest course of action. Sometimes a partial or complete restoration of a relationship might be called for. There is no one size fits all course of action here. It depends on the circumstances. If victimization is ongoing, some change in the relationship (be it temporary separation or a call for outside help) is needed.

Justice is where police, the court system, a group of friends, or some type of social group applies pressure of some sort on the perpetrator to make good, apologize, be imprisoned, whatever might be appropriate. This is also where a victim can seek protection from ongoing attacks. I think the key here is letting people with insight, experience, and authority address the issue.

Revenge is where we let our anger run rampant and potentially turn us into monsters.

When God tells us to forgive others, he is not necessarily commanding us to trust them nor give in to ongoing victimization nor to forgo restitution nor to forgo justice. To me, this is an act of cleansing and healing where the pain and anger and @#$% from the past is released. One may or may not ever have a relationship again with the perpetrator and things may or may not be "made right", but the key is that whatever happened no longer consumes us. We can move on with our lives. To me, this is about living in freedom and liberty from things that would bind us. The consequences of what happened may continue on, but our attitude toward them determines if they constitute ongoing shackles on us or costly experience that allows us to help others.
 
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marineimaging

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There is something to be said for the Buddhist concept of Karma. It may not be Christian but I pray its true. I find it really hard to reconcile that someone can commit a heinous crime, leave the victim to suffer for years into their life if not their whole life…along with the victims family and close friends. Yet all the perpetrator has to do is say Im sorry God.


Great!!! that evil person is forgiven for all they have done. So I have some questions. If you’re forgiven does that mean you don’t need to feel guilty? If you’re forgiven does that alleviate any obligations to your victim? And what if its true…while the perpetrator is forgiven the victim isn’t alleviated of their suffering. For so many it’s a life sentence. Where is the fairness in that?


Buddhists will say that if your evil then evil will befall you and if you’re a good person then good will come your way. I can see practical elements to this quite easily and it fits with me.
There is nothing the practical Christian doctrine that says that ANYBODY walks away from the consequences of their sins. We are instructed to forgive and forget this actions which a person has expressed remorse over. Now, on one hand, a person in prison has been taken by the state to pay for his/her crime which they are also required to pay restitution to the victim. However, the state has taken on responsibility for punishment and in doing so, might be considered to have taken the person away from their ability to compensate the victim. Consider it this way. A man cuts off another man's right hand without cause. The perpetrator should then become his right hand and pay his consequences. If the state has him in prison he can't very will be the victims right hand.
 
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OutOfEgypt

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Yet all the perpetrator has to do is say Im sorry God. Great!!! that evil person is forgiven for all they have done. So I have some questions. If you’re forgiven does that mean you don’t need to feel guilty? If you’re forgiven does that alleviate any obligations to your victim? And what if its true…while the perpetrator is forgiven the victim isn’t alleviated of their suffering. For so many it’s a life sentence. Where is the fairness in that?

A few points for you to consider:

1. If the person is truly "sorry" to God, it will mean there is genuine repentance for their sin. Genuine repentance shows itself (although imperfectly) in action, which may include trying to make amends to people you've hurt. It isn't just a matter of saying "I'm sorry" to God.

2. Your sentiments above assume that God is not involved in the situation enough to care for the ones hurt by the "evil person". God will make all things right -sometimes that happens in part during this life, but it always eventually happens at the judgment, ushering in the age to come. God cares, even when He isn't handling things in the way we want. That is part of our sin problem -we are prideful, demanding on our agenda, and being hurt by someone else has a way of bringing that pride out of our hearts like few other things.

3. The Bible does talk about the principal of sowing and reaping. You reap what you sow. People who sow wickedness generally don't reap good things.

4. I'm not trying to minimize any pain the victims have gone through, but being a victim of the sin of another doesn't imply innocence. All of us are victims of someone's sin to some degree, and yet all of us also sin against God daily.

5. If we truly understood how much God forgives us, if we truly understood our own sin, we would not be so quick to demand "fairness". Do we want fairness from God? If we really understood our own sin, we would not want fairness and we would be desperate for grace and mercy. So, why should God jump on our agenda and be our attack dog? In time, we will see the fruit of their ways come out in destruction. We ought to pray for our enemies, pray that they will have true repentance and come to know Jesus so that they will avoid the wrath that is coming. And... we ought to examine what the sin of the other person is exposing in our own heart. This is not to say we do not grieve. Of course we do. But we listen to what is being revealed and we trust that God is even in control of that as we confess it before Him.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Jesus works two ways to sin. Cleaning the sinner, and restoring the victim, and meeting all our needs. Also in Hebrews 12 we are told that God disciplines those He loves. And God's word says, He does not repay us as our sins deserve, but He does repay. And Romans writes of the law men carrying the sword for a reason.
 
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