Is forgiveness fair to the victim

[Dave-W]

but when it comes to God's grace for salvation, dying with even only a white lie on your account sends you to eternal punishment.

Incorrect. It is not "sin" that sends you to eternal torture; lack of faith does.

 

[JD16]

And what happens to their victims who did not repent and seek God's forgiveness? Well, that is not a pleasant thought either.

Huh? The victims are suppose to repent and seek God's forgiveness for what had been done to them? How does that work???

 

[Greg J.]

Incorrect. It is not "sin" that sends you to eternal torture; lack of faith does.

If you aren't reborn through faith, you have a sinful nature and that is exactly why you can't come into God's presence.

 

[Dave-W]

If you aren't reborn through faith, you have a sinful nature and that is exactly why you can't come into God's presence.

True, except it is not the sins or even the sin nature that keep you out; it is the lack of faith.

Without faith it is impossible to please Him

OTOH, if possible, one could go thru their entire life without committing a sin; but if they never placed faith in God via the New Covenant, they would STILL go to a devil's hell.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Huh? The victims are suppose to repent and seek God's forgiveness for what has been done to them? How does that work???

I corrected my post. Sorry. I should have been more clear on that.

 

[JD16]

I am editing and correcting my post so it will make more sense. And what happens to their victims who did not repent of their own sins and seek God's forgiveness for their own sins? The belief is, they will go to hell for all eternity, separate from God, and will be in eternal torment. Not a pleasant thought by any account either.

Sounds like a bad deal all around, seek forgiveness and spent eternity with the one who tortured you on earth, or don't and get tormented even more in the afterlife,....damn if you do, damn if you don't....

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Sounds like a bad deal all around, seek forgiveness and spent eternity with the one who tortured on earth, or don't and get tormented even more in the afterlife,....damn if you do, damn if you don't....

Yeah, no kidding. I think it gets even more confusing when Christians argue and debate over what they think the bible actually says about people going to hell. I think if you have several Christians in one room and ask them a theological question like that, you will get several different answers and the Christians who gave different answers will think they are right and the other Christians who disagree with them are wrong. So, I might find myself back to square one with absolutely no reliable answers at all.

 

[SolomonVII]

There is something to be said for the Buddhist concept of Karma. It may not be Christian but I pray its true. I find it really hard to reconcile that someone can commit a heinous crime, leave the victim to suffer for years into their life if not their whole life…along with the victims family and close friends. Yet all the perpetrator has to do is say Im sorry God.


Great!!! that evil person is forgiven for all they have done. So I have some questions. If you’re forgiven does that mean you don’t need to feel guilty? If you’re forgiven does that alleviate any obligations to your victim? And what if its true…while the perpetrator is forgiven the victim isn’t alleviated of their suffering. For so many it’s a life sentence. Where is the fairness in that?


Buddhists will say that if your evil then evil will befall you and if you’re a good person then good will come your way. I can see practical elements to this quite easily and it fits with me.

To err is human, to forgive divine.
As much as this can come off as a platitude, the truth in it is almost ironic. There is no logical reason why saying you're sorry will set the world right, but amazingly, it does.
There is something sublime about how a simple apology can erase years of offense when one brother truly regrets his actions against his other brother. But that is how love relationships work. If you truly love someone, you do not really want to get even. You just want the hurting to stop, and for him to start loving you back. Love does not seek fair. Love seeks love.
Karma is the ancient code of justice, and it is even Biblical, an eye for an eye, etc. etc. Every offense has a corresponding monetary value, and one need not regret or repent, but just pay the due.
In impersonal relationships, the business transaction is inherently fair Karma is inherently fair.

But for any of us who love, the business model misses the point. In love, we are all connected. We cannot make our brother suffer the just amount of penance, without suffering with him. That is just the way empathy works. Karma thereby only increases our own pain, as we not only suffer the loss of our own eye, but the eye of our brother as well, as the relentless wheels of Karma turn.
Love just want the hurting to stop. It is not fair; it is not justice.
Love transcends even justice.

 

[FireDragon76]

I am editing and correcting my post so it will make more sense. And what happens to their victims who did not repent of their own sins and seek God's forgiveness for their own sins? The belief is, they will go to hell for all eternity, separate from God, and will be in eternal torment. Not a pleasant thought by any account either.

I don't think so. This is where as a Lutheran I would disagree, because we are justified by faith alone, and not our works. If we find ourselves unable to forgive, that doesn't stop God from forgiving us. But if we are so angry at God that we cannot even acknowledge how broken we are in our unforgiveness, then yes, this is a big spiritual problem. A victim that is so angry that they would deny the One who can help them, who has carried the sins of the world, is really just as much of a slave to sin as anyone else.

 

[Zoii]

.... And just what does everyone mean when they say to forgive. You are asking the victims to say "Look I know you were evil, perhaps still are...I know you did me and my family terrible harm.... but thats Ok dont worry about it... dont feel bad your forgiven." I just dont know how that can be expected or achieved...and to add insult to it all if its not achieved then THATs the sin.

I get the point about about not hanging onto anger. But thats work the victim does on themselves in order to move forward, and doesnt have to involve some sort of absolving of the perpetrators sin.... surely the absolving part is Gods job. And what if the victimization is ongoing... is a wife being physically abused expected to forgive her husband every time he does it?

 

[FireDragon76]

.... And just what does everyone mean when they say to forgive. You are asking the victims to say "Look I know you were evil, perhaps still are...I know you did me and my family terrible harm.... but thats Ok dont worry about it... dont feel bad your forgiven."

Forgiveness doesn't imply approval of sin. You aren't under any obligation to be a doormat or to put yourself in a dangerous situation.

The families and friends of the victims of the massacre at the Emanual AME church in Charleston, South Carolina, that happened a few years ago, confronted the gunman that shot up their church and they let them know they didn't approve of his actions and that they were hurt by what he had done to them, but they encouraged him for his own sake to change his ways and to turn to God. That's what forgiveness is about. Not forgiving would be wishing somebody ill will. They could have confronted him and told him he was a horrible person and they hoped he would rot in prison, but they did not do so, because they knew that would really change nothing, and Jesus has shown us a better way.

I just dont know how that can be expected or achieved...and to add insult to it all if its not achieved then THATs the sin.

Maybe it's sinful in terms of the perfect standards of God's love, but it's a sin that can be forgiven. Sinless perfection is not expected of us, at least not in the Lutheran tradition.

And what if the victimization is ongoing... is a wife being physically abused expected to forgive her husband every time he does it?

No. Nobody can demand you be a martyr.

Forgiveness is ultimately about reconciliation and seeking restoration of relationships. Forgiveness is something we can offer but reconciliation is a two way interaction.

 

[Zoii]

But victims do want to see punishment - and for that matter a punishment level that is consistent with the severity of the crime. This is on some way an acknowledgement of the suffering of the victim

 

[RDKirk]

As an exercise just for Christians:

Let's imagine for a moment that we believed all persons who confessed Jesus as their Lord and put their faith in Him will be resurrected to eternal life, regardless of their previous sins. Let's just pretend for a moment that we Christians actually believe that stuff about eternal life.

A bunch of people with eternal life. Eternal. Like forever and ever. And ever. A long time. Hugely long.

So there is Jeffery who committed a heinous crime against Frank during his mortal life. But before Jeffery died, he confessed Jesus as his Lord and repented of his crimes. He's saved to eternal life. That is what we believe, right.

Frank also happens to profess Jesus as Lord. But Frank has never forgiven Jeffery. What does that mean? Seems to me, "I don't forgive him" must mean that if both of them are in heaven, there's going to be continuous ire from Frank directed toward Jeffery. Forever. Ever and ever.

Infinity is not large enough to contain hatred forever. So that would put God into a dilemma. He has Jeffery who now has a clean heart and Frank who now has an unforgiving heart.

So let's say that God permitted that dilemma to exist across the board--nobody ever forgave anyone for anything. That would mean most of the people in heaven would be walking around with grudges of one size or another against most of the other people in heaven. Helen still holds a grudge against Jane for stealing her prom date.

Does it sound like that would be a viable situation...forever? And ever? And ever?

What would be an answer?

 

[JD16]

But victims do want to see punishment - and for that matter a punishment level that is consistent with the severity of the crime. This is on some way an acknowledgement of the suffering of the victim

That is justice that you seek, forgiveness is another issue

As an exercise just for Christians:

Let's imagine for a moment that we believed all persons who confessed Jesus as their Lord and put their faith in Him will be resurrected to eternal life, regardless of their previous sins. Let's just pretend for a moment that we Christians actually believe that stuff about eternal life.

A bunch of people with eternal life. Eternal. Like forever and ever. And ever. A long time. Hugely long.

So there is Jeffery who committed a heinous crime against Frank during his mortal life. But before Jeffery died, he confessed Jesus as his Lord and repented of his crimes. He's saved to eternal life. That is what we believe, right.

Frank also happens to profess Jesus as Lord. But Frank has never forgiven Jeffery. What does that mean? Seems to me, "I don't forgive him" must mean that if both of them are in heaven, there's going to be continuous ire from Frank directed toward Jeffery. Forever. Ever and ever.

Infinity is not large enough to contain hatred forever. So that would put God into a dilemma. He has Jeffery who now has a clean heart and Frank who now has an unforgiving heart.

So let's say that God permitted that dilemma to exist across the board--nobody ever forgave anyone for anything. That would mean most of the people in heaven would be walking around with grudges of one size or another against most of the other people in heaven. Helen still holds a grudge against Jane for stealing her prom date.

Does it sound like that would be a viable situation...forever? And ever? And ever?

What would be an answer?

"Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us?"

 

[Adstar]

There is something to be said for the Buddhist concept of Karma. It may not be Christian but I pray its true. I find it really hard to reconcile that someone can commit a heinous crime, leave the victim to suffer for years into their life if not their whole life…along with the victims family and close friends. Yet all the perpetrator has to do is say Im sorry God.


Great!!! that evil person is forgiven for all they have done. So I have some questions. If you’re forgiven does that mean you don’t need to feel guilty? If you’re forgiven does that alleviate any obligations to your victim? And what if its true…while the perpetrator is forgiven the victim isn’t alleviated of their suffering. For so many it’s a life sentence. Where is the fairness in that?


Buddhists will say that if your evil then evil will befall you and if you’re a good person then good will come your way. I can see practical elements to this quite easily and it fits with me.

The transgressor must also Believe Jesus... Not just say i am sorry God.. Also forgiveness is a central theme of Christianity.. If a person disagrees with forgiveness and mercy then in spirit they are not right with God.. Yes it is very hard for us to forgive when we have been badly abused in our lives but we should still love mercy and acknowledge that forgiving the one who is contrite and remorseful is a good thing...

If people want the un-forgivness of Karma then they shall have it when they stand before God hoping that He shall forgive them their own transgressions...

 

[Zoii]

but we should still love mercy and acknowledge that forgiving the one who is contrite and remorseful
.

So are you saying that forgiveness is only needed if the perpetrator has shown remorse and seeks forgiveness themselves?

 

[Paidiske]

The thing about forgiveness, at least for us as humans, is that it is a process. I don't believe that anybody can give another person a map for that process and say, "Here, do it this way and it will work." Each person needs to work through their own emotional "stuff," and come to forgiveness as an authentic part of their own pilgrimage.

One-size-fits-all prescriptions or glib answers about how this is in our lived reality are never going to be adequate.

 

[Dave-W]

Have any of you read Derek Prince's article on forgiveness? I linked it in post #3.

Re-posted link: CSM

 

[Paidiske]

Haven't had time for reading links today, Dave, nor am I likely to get to it soon, sorry!

 

[RDKirk]

So are you saying that forgiveness is only needed if the perpetrator has shown remorse and seeks forgiveness themselves?

The offended person may never see that. But that offender may wind up in heaven. Everyone suffers many offenses from others, and heaven will be full of repentant offenders. That will mean the unforgiving offended person is the one not fit to be in heaven with all those repentant offenders.