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Is forgiveness fair to the victim

Dave-W

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Are you advocating forgiveness of the sinner who is in the midst of sinning and unrepentant for it?
Yes.

But it is not a forgiveness that is a complete absolving of wrongdoing. As Dr Dan Juster wrote in his book "Due Process."

However, what if the person does not repent and has no desire to make restitution? Must we forgive anyway and act like nothing happened? I have three answers to this question. No! No! No! If the person has sinned greatly, a loving brother must hold him accountable. To let one "off the hook" is to encourage him in further sin. We are responsible for correcting a brother or sister in sin (Gal. 6: lff) and to follow the due process of Matthew 18 if the sin is serious enough to require discipline. Truly, love does cover a multitude of sins in the ordinary course of life where we say the inappropriate thing or do something short of perfect love, etc. However, in matters of gross sin, for love's sake we must not let the brother "off the hook." The principle of forgiveness does not mean "business as usual." It may require that believers, who know of a due process decision of disfellowshipping, separate from the disciplined person. Forgiveness, as a transaction between the sinner and the one grossly sinned against, cannot take place unless there is repentance. Acting in love does not mean we are called to act friendly (in a "business as usual" way), as if there is nothing wrong.

Some will be shocked to read this. It goes against what has recently become popular Christian teaching. The old humanistic indulgence returns under the guise of "You must forgive me." Some unbelievers, like con artists, have claimed to be believers in order to literally "rip off" the saints, secure in the fact that the saints must forgive and take no action. Is that really so? The saints can disfellowship the rogue and take him to court so that society is protected.

Don't we have to forgive? I believe there is another meaning to forgiveness which is different from the transactional meaning. This forgiveness does not restore our fellowship with the sinning brother. However, it puts our hearts right.' When we say "I forgive" in this sense, we mean the following:

1. I free myself by the power of God from all bitterness, hate and vengeful motives toward the brother. I receive this ability through the meaning of the cross of Jesus.

2. I release the offender to God so that it is no longer a matter of my mental preoccupation and a hindrance to my joy in God. If the person will not be accountable to due process in the church, or due process is impossible because of the substandard situation of the church, I need not have my life ruined by another's sin.

3. I receive love and compassion for the offender. My heart and prayer for the offender is for him to be fully redeemed or restored. Therefore, in compassion, I desire that the person come to true repentance.

4. Because my heart is loving, if the person repents, I will fully receive him back in the transaction of forgiveness.

This definition is a different but related meaning of forgiveness. It is forgiveness as an attitude of love and compassion toward the offender.

However, we must not be accomplices by encouraging persons to sin. Some teach a forgiveness that would do just that and allow the one in sin to minimize the seriousness of sin. Casting out the unrepentant sinner in First Corinthians 5 had the effect of awakening him to the seriousness of his condition. It brought real repentance. Indulgence through the wrong concept of forgiveness can be a factor in the destruction of another.

Due Process by Dan Juster-Bill Fields:PeaceMakers.net, Ministry of Biblical Counseling,Reconciliation,Pastor,Elder,Deacon,church Leadership, Church Discipline,instruction
 
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SolomonVII

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I'd also like to quote now from someone whom I think said it best.

"Does it seem harsh or un-Christian-like to you to refer to a child rapist as a pervert and a dirtbag? Or to call someone who would terrorize her own 2-year old to the point that he can't catch his breath and is gasping for air, and then laugh at his panic, a sadist and a sociopath? Or to call a mother who stays married to the pedophile who raped her child, fails to do anything to protect that child, and then tops it all off by babysitting OTHER PEOPLE'S children and leaving them alone with the pervert so he can (and did) rape THEM too, a lowlife who belongs in the cell next to him? Is calling a baby-killer a "murderer" going to hurt his poor feelings? Is there even a name bad enough, or should I say "descriptive" enough, to call a mother who would set up her own child to be raped repeatedly by her husband, to keep him from focusing his attention on HER? What about a father who pimps out his children to his friends for money and beer? Or the jack*ss who has a fight with his girlfriend and then beats their 5-week old baby to death for spite - to get back at her? Or the parents who lock their child in a room for seven years, make her use a litter box for a bathroom, and starve her so badly that she weighs only 35 pounds when she finally dies?

Hey, they are what they are. I'm not here to help them feel good about themselves. Seriously, what else would you call them? What would be the politically correct way to refer to scum like this? "Slightly irresponsible"? "Child torture-challenged"? "Having low self-esteem which results in unintentional acting-out of their frustrations and beating the baby"? "Having boundary issues with sexually touching children"? "Being a little temperamental - sometimes resulting in accidentally going too far and killing a child"? Oh, please. Enough, already.

Someone who LIKES to see pain and gets their joy by making a helpless victim suffer IS a sadist. That's the definition of the word "sadist." A person who remorselessly and brutally inflicts his malice and violence on an innocent target, has absolutely no conscience or compassion about it, and in fact often then tries to use what he did to elicit sympathy for HIMSELF, IS a sociopath. That's what a sociopath IS. No, really. Look it up. Let's not disrespect the victims and minimize their experiences and pain by making up more pleasant sounding euphemisms to cover up their abusers' true natures. That sends a false message to victims and to the world - that what was done to them wasn't really so bad. But it WAS, so let's stop beating around the bush. Let's stand up and make our disapproval of and contempt for their abusers loud and clear. Tell it like it is.

Jesus certainly didn't pull any punches when he called the Pharisees just about every name there was in the book at the time. Hypocrites, snakes, brood of vipers, unclean, greedy, whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones, blind fools, full of wickedness, sons of hell (Matthew 23:13-33). He used the strongest possible language of his day to denounce them. He made an example of them. He spoke, not just directly to the Pharisees, but for the benefit of everyone else within earshot. Do you think the people who heard him got his point? Evil is evil. It is never un-Christian-like to tell the truth, nor is it un-Christian-like to use strong language when you tell it.

This is not a subject we need to be wishy-washy, calm, or easy-going about. We don't need to phrase it kindly lest we insult a dirtbag or offend his partners-in-crime. Using strong language to describe abusers and their enablers serves a purpose. It gets people's attention. It underscores for them just how disgusting, shameful, and, yes, EVIL, the behavior of these so-called "parents" is, and how disgusting, shameful, and EVIL the parents themselves are. It says if you protect an abuser by tolerating or minimizing abuse, then you are just as guilty as he is. It brings things that are often hushed-up or whispered about out into the open, and gives others the courage to stand up and tell it like it is, too. It makes a big deal out of something that many people would just as soon pretend isn't happening or isn't really that bad. It makes it UNACCEPTABLE to ACCEPT abuse. It drives home the point that abuse, and enabling abuse, is NOT "accidental." It is NOT something "they can't help." It is NOT a "mistake" or a "misunderstanding." It is DESPICABLE. It is INTENTIONAL, DELIBERATE, and supremely SELFISH. Abusers victimize others to get their own needs met, and their enablers allow it, and even encourage it, to make their own lives easier and to get their own needs met. It's a sick, twisted dynamic.

And they continue until they are exposed, or better yet, arrested. They continue until the silence is broken. They continue until we stop circ
I'd also like to quote now from someone whom I think said it best.

"Does it seem harsh or un-Christian-like to you to refer to a child rapist as a pervert and a dirtbag? Or to call someone who would terrorize her own 2-year old to the point that he can't catch his breath and is gasping for air, and then laugh at his panic, a sadist and a sociopath? Or to call a mother who stays married to the pedophile who raped her child, fails to do anything to protect that child, and then tops it all off by babysitting OTHER PEOPLE'S children and leaving them alone with the pervert so he can (and did) rape THEM too, a lowlife who belongs in the cell next to him? Is calling a baby-killer a "murderer" going to hurt his poor feelings? Is there even a name bad enough, or should I say "descriptive" enough, to call a mother who would set up her own child to be raped repeatedly by her husband, to keep him from focusing his attention on HER? What about a father who pimps out his children to his friends for money and beer? Or the jack*ss who has a fight with his girlfriend and then beats their 5-week old baby to death for spite - to get back at her? Or the parents who lock their child in a room for seven years, make her use a litter box for a bathroom, and starve her so badly that she weighs only 35 pounds when she finally dies?

Hey, they are what they are. I'm not here to help them feel good about themselves. Seriously, what else would you call them? What would be the politically correct way to refer to scum like this? "Slightly irresponsible"? "Child torture-challenged"? "Having low self-esteem which results in unintentional acting-out of their frustrations and beating the baby"? "Having boundary issues with sexually touching children"? "Being a little temperamental - sometimes resulting in accidentally going too far and killing a child"? Oh, please. Enough, already.

Someone who LIKES to see pain and gets their joy by making a helpless victim suffer IS a sadist. That's the definition of the word "sadist." A person who remorselessly and brutally inflicts his malice and violence on an innocent target, has absolutely no conscience or compassion about it, and in fact often then tries to use what he did to elicit sympathy for HIMSELF, IS a sociopath. That's what a sociopath IS. No, really. Look it up. Let's not disrespect the victims and minimize their experiences and pain by making up more pleasant sounding euphemisms to cover up their abusers' true natures. That sends a false message to victims and to the world - that what was done to them wasn't really so bad. But it WAS, so let's stop beating around the bush. Let's stand up and make our disapproval of and contempt for their abusers loud and clear. Tell it like it is.

Jesus certainly didn't pull any punches when he called the Pharisees just about every name there was in the book at the time. Hypocrites, snakes, brood of vipers, unclean, greedy, whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones, blind fools, full of wickedness, sons of hell (Matthew 23:13-33). He used the strongest possible language of his day to denounce them. He made an example of them. He spoke, not just directly to the Pharisees, but for the benefit of everyone else within earshot. Do you think the people who heard him got his point? Evil is evil. It is never un-Christian-like to tell the truth, nor is it un-Christian-like to use strong language when you tell it.

This is not a subject we need to be wishy-washy, calm, or easy-going about. We don't need to phrase it kindly lest we insult a dirtbag or offend his partners-in-crime. Using strong language to describe abusers and their enablers serves a purpose. It gets people's attention. It underscores for them just how disgusting, shameful, and, yes, EVIL, the behavior of these so-called "parents" is, and how disgusting, shameful, and EVIL the parents themselves are. It says if you protect an abuser by tolerating or minimizing abuse, then you are just as guilty as he is. It brings things that are often hushed-up or whispered about out into the open, and gives others the courage to stand up and tell it like it is, too. It makes a big deal out of something that many people would just as soon pretend isn't happening or isn't really that bad. It makes it UNACCEPTABLE to ACCEPT abuse. It drives home the point that abuse, and enabling abuse, is NOT "accidental." It is NOT something "they can't help." It is NOT a "mistake" or a "misunderstanding." It is DESPICABLE. It is INTENTIONAL, DELIBERATE, and supremely SELFISH. Abusers victimize others to get their own needs met, and their enablers allow it, and even encourage it, to make their own lives easier and to get their own needs met. It's a sick, twisted dynamic.

And they continue until they are exposed, or better yet, arrested. They continue until the silence is broken. They continue until we stop circumventing the issues, coddling them, walking on eggshells around them, and talking about them in nice, mild, smiley-face terms - terms that are vague, deceptive, and fail to present the TRUE picture and emphasize the gravity of it to the listener. It's not OUR fault if the truth is ugly."

umventing the issues, coddling them, walking on eggshells around them, and talking about them in nice, mild, smiley-face terms - terms that are vague, deceptive, and fail to present the TRUE picture and emphasize the gravity of it to the listener. It's not OUR fault if the truth is ugly."
There is a Biblical verse that says something that God likes hot or cold, but spits out the tepid.
The rage against evil in this post burns white hot. The passion is unmistakable, and any objections to it would thereby come off as tepid. Great love engenders great hatred. To love someone means to hate anything that would do that someone grave harm. Admonishments to forgive the baby killer or child-torturer would deny us that hate, and thereby negate the great love also that engenders the hate.
For the opposite of love is not hate, but passionless acceptance. Opposite of love is tepid.
 
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SolomonVII

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The context of forgiveness must therefore acknowledge love in all its passion, and all its aspects, including the necessity of hatred in a world where evil is real and an active force.
Whatever forgiveness means, it cannot be an invitation to a tepid response to evil itself.
 
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Zoii

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As Byron Katie once said, "Forgiveness is just another name for freedom."

-
Did you mean that the act of forgiving someone, particularly if they are not repentant anyway, is just giving them freedom to re-offend?
 
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JD16

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Did you mean that the act of forgiving someone, particularly if they are not repentant anyway, is just giving them freedom to re-offend?

What chaela meant was, by hanging on to grudges, it will only affect you personally,....the offender does not care or is not bothered by it,...especially if they are unrepentant. If someone is consistently offending you, or putting you in any danger,...distance yourself from them. And if what they did to you is unlawful, seek redress through law enforcement. Forgiveness in this sense just means, don't carry that mental baggage, its not worth it to weigh yourself down. Anger leads to hate, hate leads to self destruction,...
 
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Rajni

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Did you mean that the act of forgiving someone, particularly if they are not repentant anyway, is just giving them freedom to re-offend?

What chaela meant was, by hanging on to grudges, it will only affect you personally,....the offender does not care or is not bothered by it,...especially if they are unrepentant. If someone is consistently offending you, or putting you in any danger,...distance yourself from them. And if what they did to you is unlawful, seek redress through law enforcement. Forgiveness in this sense just means, don't carry that mental baggage, its not worth it to weigh yourself down. Anger leads to hate, hate leads to self destruction,...
Exactly. Freedom from the bitterness that not forgiving would otherwise inflict on one if he/she withholds forgiveness.
 
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Fantine

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There is a parable that addresses this. Matthew 20:1-16.

The vineyard owner gives the workers who start late in the afternoon the same pay the workers who worked all day received.

And the point is that God's extending generosity to the latecomers doesn't take one penny away from your heavenly reward, even if you had to work harder for it.
 
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RDKirk

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The context of forgiveness must therefore acknowledge love in all its passion, and all its aspects, including the necessity of hatred in a world where evil is real and an active force.
Whatever forgiveness means, it cannot be an invitation to a tepid response to evil itself.

Forgiveness is hatred.

Umm. Okay.
 
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SolomonVII

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Forgiveness is hatred.

Umm. Okay.
You seem to be a little fuzzy on the details.
That would actually make me mad, if I at all cared for what you were thinking.
But I don't know you. You mean nothing to me, either way. It is not even tepid.

Do you take my indifference to your opinion as forgiveness?
 
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RedPonyDriver

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Not forgiving someone and holding on to bitterness is like this...taking poison every day and expecting the other person to die. Truth is, forgiveness isn't about you or what's been done, it's about releasing your grudge to God and counting on Him to take care of the situation in His infinite justice, grace and mercy. There's plenty of scriptures about forgiving...
 
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RileyG

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There is something to be said for the Buddhist concept of Karma. It may not be Christian but I pray its true. I find it really hard to reconcile that someone can commit a heinous crime, leave the victim to suffer for years into their life if not their whole life…along with the victims family and close friends. Yet all the perpetrator has to do is say Im sorry God.


Great!!! that evil person is forgiven for all they have done. So I have some questions. If you’re forgiven does that mean you don’t need to feel guilty? If you’re forgiven does that alleviate any obligations to your victim? And what if its true…while the perpetrator is forgiven the victim isn’t alleviated of their suffering. For so many it’s a life sentence. Where is the fairness in that?


Buddhists will say that if your evil then evil will befall you and if you’re a good person then good will come your way. I can see practical elements to this quite easily and it fits with me.
Karma is found in all Eastern religions, not just Buddhism.

Anyway, I do not think forgiveness removes the consequences of one's decision. There has been parents that had their children murdered and they chose to forgive their perpetrators. Even if one is forgiven by God, it does not remove the consequences or responsibility one has in their life. IMHO.
 
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Zoii

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I can scarcely believe it. Another woman asking the same question - years after she is raped she has to sit in church with the man who assaulted her and never paid for his wrong or admitted his wrong and sits in church as an upright good christian.
Forgiving Sexual Assault
I am angered shes told that she has to open her loving arms to him. I am angry she is also told that she has sinned for not reporting him because she may abetted his activity with other young girls. I am just so so angry that victimised people...especially women... somehow have the burden of guilt thrown back at them if they cant forgive or dont do what everyone else expects of them. Yet I wonder how many of those offering the advice carry guns...... sigh Im just angry at the moment.
 
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Dave-W

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Yeah Zoii I understand that. Some people believe that Jews who had their entire families slaughtered should be able to be all lovey-dovey with Hitler. That is a TOTAL misrepresentation of the issue.

It ain't happening. Even though I did NOT lose any family (that I know of) in the Holocaust, I will not buy a VW, (designed by Hitler) or a Mercedes, (Nazi staff cars) or use any product made by Bayer. (supplied the gas to the death camps).
 
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Dave-W

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Karma is found in all Eastern religions, not just Buddhism.
Not really.
Judaism is more of an eastern religion that western, and it does not have karma.

I would say the eastern religions with an appreciable influence from Hinduism have karma.
 
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Hidden In Him

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I find it really hard to reconcile that someone can commit a heinous crime, leave the victim to suffer for years into their life if not their whole life… Yet all the perpetrator has to do is say Im sorry God... If you’re forgiven does that mean you don’t need to feel guilty? If you’re forgiven does that alleviate any obligations to your victim?

Wow! Powerful question. No way I have the energy atm to catch up on all your responses just yet, but several things came to mind in reading your post.

Let me start by saying that I am as repulsed by it as you are, if not more so. It is an insult to the True and Living God that He would be portrayed as some sort of lenient, Molly-coddling little dismisser. In fact, true Christianity teaches nothing of the sort. Those who sinned were required to repent, become entirely different individuals in their behavior, and make recompense to those whom they had sinned against by doing just the opposite of the sins they once committed (Ephesians 4:28).

All the excuses some make for why they are justified before God in simply saying "I'm sorry" will be held in contempt the day they stand before Him in judgment.

I could go on, but I think I'll wait and see if I can't catch up on some of your other responses first.

God Bless!
 
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Hidden In Him

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It's good to remember, however, that even the act of wishing ill on someone, even if it feels justified, carries its own karma.

This is a good response to what might be your particular viewpoint, but it appears this thread devolved fairly quickly into discussing the importance of you forgiving others, rather than centering specifically on the question of should the forgiven need to feel guilty, make restitutions, have obligations to the victim, etc.
 
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Hidden In Him

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The idea that someone caused harm and is getting away with it is erroneous thinking. No one gets away with anything done in this life. God will call everyone to account for what they have done. That's all over Scripture (Matthew 12:36, Romans 14:12, ...), and it includes being unforgiving, btw

This is excellent, and to be commended as a rather authoritative, accurate response.
 
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