Is forgiveness fair to the victim

[GoldenKingGaze]

Between sinner, victim and the command to forgive, is Jesus' work of the cross and Jesus' blood. He creates the possibility for those willing and believing to be reconciled over time through His blood. Jesus' blood is more real than the offence, more real than our bodies or spirits. And Jesus blood is abundant to cover and clean and restore honour many times over. Both God's repaying discipline, that seems hard, but leads to character justice and personal peace, and God's tender healing and restoration go on, I am sure into the next life. It is thorough.

 

[joymercy]

One thing I'm very clear abut is that being forgiven (by God) doesn't remove any obligations to your victim/society. If you're really sorry, you will do everything in your power to mend what you've damaged, and to contribute to others' well being in other ways.

Padiski, as someone who has studied the word, are there some scripture verses that show that to be godly, one should make amends or make reparations?

Is going to jail for certain crimes required by the God of the bible?

Is there such a thing as biblical Karma?

 

[historyprincess710]

Okay, let me clear this up for everyone.

One reason abuse is so widespread even in our churches is because we have such a faulty understanding of what forgiveness is. Those who know the Lord and study his Word know that he has such a heart of love for the downtrodden and the broken-hearted, and that he desires us to be free of every kind of bondage. God's Word is infallible, and God does not play mean little tricks on abuse victims. He NEVER says anything that would make it easier for a sinner to keep on sinning or an abuser to keep on abusing. To even suggest otherwise is to reveal a profound ignorance of God's divine nature.

Biblically speaking, NO ONE gets forgiven without changing his ways and turning to God and godliness. The New Testament includes an additional requirement for meriting forgiveness - accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior (and no one who has genuinely done that can continue abusing others). Abusers would just love an excuse to obligate us to forgive them without the slightest effort to make amends, commitment to change, or anything expected of them at all. It's the Abuser’s Dream Gig- to be able to commit one evil deed after another with impunity, and then pervert the Word of God by claiming that others have to repeatedly and unconditionally forgive her. This is utter nonsense.

BE NOT DECEIVED; GOD IS NOT MOCKED: FOR WHATSOEVER A MAN SOWETH, THAT SHALL HE ALSO REAP….Galatians 6:7. The Bible is not an excuse for abusive people to have a field day without ever suffering any consequences. Distorting the Word of God to get away with evil is an indication of the demonic nature of such people, not of their innocence and good intentions. Ask any deliverance minister and you will learn that twisting God's Word to facilitate evil is one of the most common tactics used by demons.

The Bible does in fact tell us that we should forgive as the Lord forgave us (Colossians 3:13; Ephesians 4:32). But there are requirements for forgiveness. If we read in more depth and in context about God forgiving us, including the hows, whys and under what circumstances, we will see that he only forgives us when we come to him in the spirit of remorse, change our lives through his Son, ask for forgiveness, and repent (CHANGE). So if we are to forgive others as God forgives us, then we are to forgive them AFTER they have shown genuine remorse by the grace of Jesus' cleansing blood, and AFTER they have repented (CHANGED), NOT BEFORE. That is the formula for forgiveness which God models for us, and that is the formula which he instructs us to follow.

Other Scriptural examples of the Lord forgiving us IF AND WHEN WE REPENT are written in Ezekiel 33:10-20, Isaiah 55:6-7, Jeremiah 6:16-30 & 26:3, Luke 13:3 & 5, Acts 3:19. These are just a few of the examples we can study that will educate us about God's prerequisites and requirements for forgiveness.

We are not to cheapen the gift of forgiveness by giving it prematurely or undeservedly, to those who demand it and act as if they are entitled to it, and yet have done nothing to merit it. The Lord's higher purpose is to change men's hearts and make them turn from evil, give up their wicked ways, and choose to follow HIM instead of Satan. He does that by requiring repentance before forgiveness, not by giving evildoers a free ride.

In Luke 17:3, Jesus tells us very clearly that we are to forgive someone who sins against us IF he repents. He does NOT tell us to forgive everyone, including those who have absolutely no remorse and fully intend to continue abusing others and behaving badly. That would be preposterous and contradictory.

God does not want us to continue to be abused. And he does not want us to allow abusers to continue their abuse with no consequences. In fact, we are told numerous times to shun evildoers (some of these Scriptures are: Proverbs 22:10, Proverbs 22: 24, Proverbs 23:9, Proverbs 24: 25, Proverbs 25: 4-5, Proverbs 24:24, Proverbs 26:24-26, Psalm 37:9, Psalm 119:115, Proverbs 19:19, Matthew 18: 15-17, Titus 3:10-11, and 1 Corinthians 5:11).

 

[joymercy]

He died for me while I was yet a sinner, giving me, underserved, grace. I didn't have to earn it.

It was free.

that just blows my mind.

 

[Mountainmike]

You could visit the concept of temporal punishment of catholicism to see how it fits into the kind of framework you describe.

You could consider the parable of the rich man and lazarus : most of us rely on forgiveness, so to fail to forgive others is a speck for a beam in an eye

But as for forgiveness for horrendous crimes, read "left to tell" and "led by faith" by immaculee ilibagiza
Fascinating stories of what happens when hate prevails in a society, rivers of blood foretold that became true in the Rwandan genocide and how do you manage to recover a society when hundreds of thousands murder in a genocide. Do you execute them all? Does that not prolong the hate? Do you fill the jails with hundreds of thousands?

But most of all, how immacullee forgave the one who slaughtered her family.
A story to inspire all christians , not just catholics. And whilst the story relates to a small country in africa, the message is there for the world about what hate can do if left unchallenged.

There is something to be said for the Buddhist concept of Karma. It may not be Christian but I pray its true. I find it really hard to reconcile that someone can commit a heinous crime, leave the victim to suffer for years into their life if not their whole life…along with the victims family and close friends. Yet all the perpetrator has to do is say Im sorry God.


Great!!! that evil person is forgiven for all they have done. So I have some questions. If you’re forgiven does that mean you don’t need to feel guilty? If you’re forgiven does that alleviate any obligations to your victim? And what if its true…while the perpetrator is forgiven the victim isn’t alleviated of their suffering. For so many it’s a life sentence. Where is the fairness in that?


Buddhists will say that if your evil then evil will befall you and if you’re a good person then good will come your way. I can see practical elements to this quite easily and it fits with me.

 

[historyprincess710]

The Bible teaches that all evil behavior has consequences. The only way to come into a state of grace is to give up sinfulness and walk in the ways of the Lord, in love for others. Abusers by nature could not care less about coming closer to God, and usually need some extra incentive to straighten up and fly right. That incentive is often some kind of social censure, which may, for a particular individual, include our refusal to forgive him until and if he has earned it.

 

[historyprincess710]

Also, even though it might be true that Jesus asked Father God to forgive those who crucified him, he didn't say to them "I forgive you." Although he could have if he wanted to, Jesus himself did not offer his own forgiveness to those who hurt him. Our Lord did not use this as a golden opportunity to set an example for us of forgiving the unrepentant. Even in his last words, Jesus did not give us any reason to think that he had forgiven his murderers.

The question of whether or not Father God actually forgave them despite their unrepentance is left unanswered and remains unknown to this day. There is absolutely no indication that the Lord did indeed forgive them and no reason to assume that he did. This would be nothing but pure unsubstantiated speculation.

Another interesting point is that three of the gospels make mention of the centurion’s and others’ reactions when Jesus died, the rocks moved, and the curtain of the temple was torn in two:
"When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified and exclaimed, 'Surely he was the Son of God.'"…Matthew 27:54.

"And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and saw how he died, he said, 'Surely this man was the Son of God!'"….Mark 15: 39.

"The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, 'Surely this was a righteous man.' When all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place, they beat their breasts and went away."…Luke 23:47-48.

Could we not take this to mean that at least one, if not some or all, of those who killed Jesus realized what they had done and did in actuality repent? It certainly seems as if at least this one man did feel regret and remorse, or even horror that he had helped to kill the Son of God. If in fact any of those who killed Jesus praised God as Luke says and repented, then we know they were forgiven - BECAUSE they repented!

 

[FireDragon76]

Is going to jail for certain crimes required by the God of the bible?

The state does have the duty to uphold order and the common good, and people have a general duty to obey the law, but otherwise I'd say no.

 

[Dave-W]

Even in his last words, Jesus did not give us any reason to think that he had forgiven his murderers.

So you think HE went to His grave committing the sin of unforgiveness?

 

[historyprincess710]

What you look through determines what you see. If you are trusting in your own performance, you will read Jesus' words as law. "I must work to earn God's forgiveness." You cannot succeed! When life hurts you this law will condemn you as a law-breaker in need of grace, and the sooner that happens the better.

Besides, the Pharisees knew who Jesus was and they hated him anyway. They attributed his godly works, knowingly, to the devil. That's the unpardonable sin.

 

[FireDragon76]

Also, even though it might be true that Jesus asked Father God to forgive those who crucified him, he didn't say to them "I forgive you." Although he could have if he wanted to, Jesus himself did not offer his own forgiveness to those who hurt him. Our Lord did not use this as a golden opportunity to set an example for us of forgiving the unrepentant. Even in his last words, Jesus did not give us any reason to think that he had forgiven his murderers.

I can't identify with this statement as being consistent with the Christian faith's consistent teaching on the character of Jesus Christ as forgiving. Of course Jesus forgave. Whether they believed they were forgiven by God or not is another story.

The Bible teaches that all evil behavior has consequences. The only way to come into a state of grace is to give up sinfulness and walk in the ways of the Lord, in love for others.

This is definitely not consistent with historic Protestant theology. We do not come into a state of grace through our own efforts, God gives us grace without having to earn it. That's actually very good news for someone like Zoii, even though I'm not sure she fully understands it. It means that God accepts her with her resentments, anger, frustration, and whatever else she might feel.

 

[historyprincess710]

Now if you are asking about GOD'S forgiveness, then of course one has to be a Christian, that is, to accept Jesus as one's Lord and Savior and believe in him as the Son of God, in order to have one's sins forgiven by God and enter into heaven. Being "born-again" refers to GOD's forgiveness, not human forgiveness. Even God does not forgive everyone. He does not forgive stubborn, "stiff-necked" people, and doesn’t expect us to, either. The Lord requires repentance, and so should we.

If you are talking about HUMAN forgiveness, we are required to forgive those who have damaged us WHEN THEY REPENT, whether or not they are born-again. Repentance is not a mere apology. Anyone can do that, and then go right back to doing exactly what caused the problem in the first place. Repentance is looking within and re-evaluating one's life, turning from one's sinful ways, showing true remorse, making amends, having a change of heart, changing one's behavior from unloving to loving, etc. not just giving these things lip-service. Repentance takes effort.

 

[Dave-W]

Now if you are asking about GOD'S forgiveness, then of course one has to be a Christian, that is, to accept Jesus as one's Lord and Savior and believe in him as the Son of God, in order to have one's sins forgiven by God

So you are saying that Jesus asking God the Father to forgive the Roman soldiers and Stephen asking God to forgive those stoning him to death was a waste of breath? Neither group was anything close to Christian.

 

[historyprincess710]

They didn't know what they were doing. That's the big difference. Read the scriptures I put in above. Saul was one of those who stoned Stephen, but Jesus eventually appeared to him and he repented.

 

[historyprincess710]

To many of us, the words "Christian" and "abuser" don't seem to belong together. They are, or should be, a contradiction in terms. And yet how many of us have heard of a minister's children who were raised with cruelty and abuse? How many of us know of an upstanding, church-going man or woman of God, who turns out to be a criminal or a child molester? Who can forget the huge scandal in the Roman Catholic church, when so many of their so-called "men of God" priests were exposed as pedophiles, child molesters who were using their position in the church as a source of obtaining new victims? Calling oneself "Christian" does not make one exempt from abusive behavior. And calling oneself "Christian" does not make one a REAL Christian, either.

 

[Rajni]

I could theologically cope with purgation as long as it is, in some sense, instantaneous transformation. The idea of "doing time" in purgatory - although it's acknowledged to somehow be timeless, but ykwim - is where it becomes problematic for me.

I seriously believe that just the experience of leaving one's
physical body and being in the then-obvious presence of God will,
in and of itself, provide ample purgation.

Much of what we do is influenced by the biochemical cocktails our
bodies and brains crank out; all that would no longer be a factor
after leaving our physical bodies, making who we are in our
disembodied states potentially quite different from what we were
while still embodied.

This is one reason why the hypothetical bad-guy who attacks me
while embodied may be a completely different person post-
mortem. And who knows -- if reincarnation is true, it very well
could have been that our roles were reversed in a previous life:
he was the victim and I was the villain, and we're just switching it
around to better understand each other's previous experiences.
So now I'm more enlightened on what it was like for him then, just
as he is on what it's like for me now. After death we'll compare notes
and, I dunno ... do lunch (I have a very hard time accommodating
the idea of having "enemies"

).

And maybe we have it backwards: It's not that 'evil' people should do
time in some kind of misery. I suspect it's having already done time in
some kind of misery that produces 'evil' people. Why, then, would one
wish that they remain in the very state that produced them in the first
place when they can be restored, refurbished, revived, and reconciled?

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

There is something to be said for the Buddhist concept of Karma. It may not be Christian but I pray its true. I find it really hard to reconcile that someone can commit a heinous crime, leave the victim to suffer for years into their life if not their whole life…along with the victims family and close friends. Yet all the perpetrator has to do is say Im sorry God.


Great!!! that evil person is forgiven for all they have done. So I have some questions. If you’re forgiven does that mean you don’t need to feel guilty? If you’re forgiven does that alleviate any obligations to your victim? And what if its true…while the perpetrator is forgiven the victim isn’t alleviated of their suffering. For so many it’s a life sentence. Where is the fairness in that?


Buddhists will say that if your evil then evil will befall you and if you’re a good person then good will come your way. I can see practical elements to this quite easily and it fits with me.

Forgiveness is ABSOLUTELY NOT fair.

It is not fair for you as a victim to allow an evil person to go free of guilt and punishment for their evil done against you, and it was MUCH LESS fair that the perfect man Jesus Christ absorbed in His flesh the full wrath of Almighty God and all the hatred and sin of all men all so you can go free of the guilt and punishment (Hell) you had coming for the evil you have done against God.

No, forgiveness is not fair at all. Forgiveness is the OPPOSITE of fair.

Forgiveness is Mercy. Forgiveness is Grace.

And if you want to keep getting these things freely from God, you'd better keep giving them freely to all men.

Just as Jesus said "if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions." (Matthew 6:15)

 

[historyprincess710]

Read my post above. That's not true. Jesus preaches LAW to those who are law stricken and GRACE to those who accept that He has fulfilled the law on their behalf. The requirement for true forgiveness, both from God and man, is to REPENT!

When you think about it, God is both fair and unfair at the same time.

 

[Chris M]

If the offender truly repented from the bottom of their heart, I believe there will be some kind of sincerity that will lead them to the offended to say at least "I'm sorry" and do something that could help the offender to let it go sincerely. Paul clearly tells us in Romans 5 that being forgiven by God is not license to sin. If the offender just rejoice being forgiven and do nothing that shows their sincerity, I would doubt that they're truly in agreement with God. They could be just using the word in the bible to justify themselves as they can make it sound right if they use scriptures. As God is just, He will deal with that one way or another.

 

[Paidiske]

Padiski, as someone who has studied the word, are there some scripture verses that show that to be godly, one should make amends or make reparations?

Is going to jail for certain crimes required by the God of the bible?

Is there such a thing as biblical Karma?

In the OT law we see the concept of restitution many times. Have a look at Exodus 22 where the issue is spelled out in some detail.

Gaol is a trickier one. I am not aware of anywhere the God commands that someone be gaoled. (And, looking at it through a social lens, I am not convinced that gaol is often helpful in a process of rehabilitation). But, that said, God does require us to be good citizens and to work with our governing authorities; so if we ourselves are sentenced to gaol I think there would be a Godly expectation that we accept that and seek to turn that time to our benefit.

Karma is a different thing again. It's a concept borrowed from the Hindu-Buddhist worldview (they share much in common) and I think really does not apply in a Christian worldview, because without the idea of reincarnation, karma is a nonsense (and of course reincarnation is foreign to the Christian worldview). The closest Christian principle, I think, is that we reap what we sow; but the parallel is limited.