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He said that the laws were based on love. Love for God and love for your neighbor as yourself. He didn't repeal the 10 commandments. That would be stupid being they concern showing love for God and love for one's neighbor.
He filled full the ceremonial law so that he as the last sacrifice for the sins of the world.
People try to rewrite Jesus ministry to their own liking and they're wrong every time.
I was specifically talking about this verse in the post you responded to. Furthermore, God has never given a system of works, but only a system of faith and love. God's law is instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) in accordance with His character, so they can not be done away with unless God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness are first done away with. As part of the New Covenant, we are still told to follow God's instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 Peter 3:10, Ephesians 2:10).
You must have a pretty low opinion of God to think that He would save the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt only to put them back under bondage to His law and that throughout the Bible He was calling them from their freedom to sin and do what is right in their own eyes back to the bondage of doing what is holy, righteous, and good in obedience to His ways. Rather, as Galatians 5:1 states, it is for freedom that God sets us free, and God's law is a law of liberty (Psalms 119:45, James 1:25), while it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage. It can't be disobedience and obedience to the law as it was intended that both put us in bondage. However, God's law can be perverted into a system of works that are about what we need to do in order to become justified, which would be living in just as much bondage as living in disobedience to the law. There is a world of difference between Paul saying that obeying God's law for the purpose of becoming justified is bondage and saying that obeying God's law is bondage. It is like hearing someone speaking against using a car to drive on the bottom of a lake and you concluding that they are against driving cars on roads.
Galatians 5:16-23 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.
It does not make any sense to interpret Galatians 5:18 as saying that if we are under the Spirit that we aren't under the Mosaic law because the law being talked about is one that is against God, not one that was given by God. I mean, are you suggesting that when God gave the Mosaic law that He gave a law that was against His Spirit? Rather, the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Everything that was listed as being works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against what the Mosaic law teaches and everything that was listed as being fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with what the Mosaic law teaches, which should come as no surprise because the Mosaic law was commanded by God and the Spirit is God. Rather, if we are led by the Spirit, then we are not under the law of sin, which is the same thing that Paul was saying in Romans:
Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
It is not the Mosaic law where sin had dominion over us, but rather it was the law of sin. In Romans 7:12-23, Paul said that the Mosaic law is holy, righteous, and good, that it was the good he sought to do and delighted in doing, but contrasted that with a law of sin that was working within him to stir up sin and to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, so the Mosaic law is the opposite of the law of sin.
Everyone since Moses who has acted in love toward their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law. Jesus summarized the law as being about how to love God and how to love your neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), so love fulfills the law because that is what it is essentially about how to do. All of the 613 commands in the OT and 1,050 commands in the NT are examples of how to correctly obey the greatest two commandments, so if you say all we need to do is follow God's command to love, so we don't need to follow His commands for how He wants us to love, then you are missing the point.
There is a theme throughout the Bible that we must obey God rather than man, and it should be extremely obvious that followers of God should follow God's commands, so Acts 15 should not be misunderstood as speaking against Gentiles obeying God's law when it is only against them obeying man's law. However, if you think that the Jerusalem Council tried to countermand God's law, then are you a follower of the Jerusalem Council or are you a follower of God? Jesus gave a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to God's law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6), or do you think that following Jesus is only for the Jews?
I don't think I know ANYONE who believes that Yeshua/Jesus is messiah and thinks works or obedience save. Nobody.... 21 years as a Christian, 15 in a realm where we keep things like the Sabbath and Feasts... and I have yet to meet one person who believes that we are saved by works. That said, just because we are saved by grace does not abrogate works or obedience. Faith without works is dead being alone... if there are not works, you have no faith and that isn't me, that is the head of the church of Jerusalem, James the Apostle, who said that.
Since you are Messanic, I'll dig the quote up but I recall a Rabbi saying that man standing to God depends on his standing in the Law.
And once again, Jesus Himself took all 613 "laws" boiled them down to two, and if we could do them, we could fulfill the law.
Sadly, I don't one single person on the face of the earth at any time that did that, except the Lord Jesus Christ.
God Bless
Till all are one.
The Mosaic law was given to reveal sin, so if we are not under it, then we are free to do what God has revealed to be sin. However, according to Romans 6:14, the law that we are no longer under is the law where sin had dominion over us, which is the law of sin, not the Mosaic law.We are not under the law. That means if you sin, or fail to follow one of the least of the commandments, you will not be damned as an imperfect hell-bound sinner whose soul will be condemned. That is it.
Not being under the law doesn't mean you become a disobedient child, and stop foowing God''s law. He, nor Christ never said the Law was done away with, null, void, inert, or to be ignored. In fact, He says as per the NEW COVENANT that the Law will be written on our hearts such that you won't even have to ask your neighbor do they know God.
What the New covenant promises is, through faith in Christ, a confession of sin, repentance and work toward righteousness you will not be condemned to die if you break a law. Your repentance, and faith vindicate you before God, and your sins are forgiven: SIN NO MORE.
How can you sin if there are no rules to fall short of ?
Being under the Law does not negate or cancel ANY of God''s Law, and Christ never suggested such a thing, nor would He ever suggest such a thing especially seeing as He is the Literal Word of God that lives forever.
When Heaven and Earth pass away, so will the Law. Until then, not one tittle or iota of the law is removed. Christ plainly teaches this.
If you want to look up rabbinic literature, then this is an instance of a famous rabbi saying something along the same lines as Jesus did:
One famous account in the Talmud (Shabbat 31a) tells about a gentile who wanted to convert to Judaism. This happened not infrequently, and this individual stated that he would accept Judaism only if a rabbi would teach him the entire Torah while he, the prospective convert, stood on one foot. First he went to Shammai, who, insulted by this ridiculous request, threw him out of the house. The man did not give up and went to Hillel. This gentle sage accepted the challenge, and said:
"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation of this--go and study it!"
The Mosaic law was given to reveal sin, so if we are not under it, then we are free to do what God has revealed to be sin. However, according to Romans 6:14, the law that we are no longer under is the law where sin had dominion over us, which is the law of sin, not the Mosaic law.
Lol, His Moedim is for all of us, we are all welcome to join in they are God's Holy Convocations not just for the Jews. You can review them if you choose in Leviticus 23. We have Yom Teruah (feast of Trumpets) coming up tomorrow. Happy reading ")
Like I showed you previously.
Scriptures say it had a flaw/fault. Unless you do not believe that the scriptures are true.
The law could not atone, could not declare one righteous, it could not justify, it could not forgive sin, only cover it, all it could do is drive one to the ordinances.
And that, my friend, is a fact!
Two contrasting points of view in James and Paul.
There was some perhaps 40 years difference between what Paul writes about, and what James writes about.
I hear you but we are speaking to "Obeying the Law for salvation".
Salvation is not something you can earn; it is a gift. You can not earn it by being obedient to God's law. You can not earn it by doing your best to please God. There is no way you can measure up to God's standards. It is a righteousness "apart from the works of the law." It is apart from the law of any kind. It is a gift of grace.
It is important to keep in mind the law could demand perfect righteousness, but it was powerless to produce the perfect righteousness that God demands. The reason is because man is sinful at the very core of his nature. Depraved sinful man can not produce righteousness in God's sight no matter how many laws he passes.
Obeying the commandments does not save us neither does it keep us saved.
I've asked you these questions repeatedly, and repeatedly you go on about not being saved by works. Which we know. So, what is Jesus saying here, or do you simply ignore Him?
It does get tiring. I don't care who is correct, it would be nice though to have a nice solid adult give and take and we just let the truth be the truth. For example, I am told the law is dead.. not for today, so I point out that Yeshua says to some, "depart from me you workers of lawlessness." Why would he cast away from him those who are lawless... and that is God's laws not man's? But that person doesn't answer, well they do... with condescending personal shots that make me feel like I am back in high school. Not only do we all deserve more than this, the Lord deserves more from those who claim to be his.
Blessings Jim.
Ken
And just who does God give the gift too? The bible is quite clear, those that do the will of God.
If your theory is correct answer this, just what did Jedus mean by "not everyone who cries Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of God but those that do the will of my father in heaven". Yes, we know we are justified by faith not works. Yes, we know that works doesn't save us. But Jesus is saying here who is saved, not how we are saved. I've asked you these questions repeatedly, and repeatedly you go on about not being saved by works. Which we know. So, what is Jesus saying here, or do you simply ignore Him?
It does get tiring. I don't care who is correct, it would be nice though to have a nice solid adult give and take and we just let the truth be the truth. For example, I am told the law is dead.. not for today, so I point out that Yeshua says to some, "depart from me you workers of lawlessness." Why would he cast away from him those who are lawless... and that is God's laws not man's? But that person doesn't answer, well they do... with condescending personal shots that make me feel like I am back in high school. Not only do we all deserve more than this, the Lord deserves more from those who claim to be his.
Blessings Jim.
Ken
Dear Ken. You do realize that what you are describing is a two way street. Right? There are people here who post the exact words of the Scriptures and the same person/persons keeps rejecting them and saying the same old thing over and over. So it is frustrating for many people.
Personally I want you to care who is right. May I say to you that the Law of God is NOT DEAD. The Law of God is not bad.
The Law of God is good. Not just good but really good as it came from God Himself.
But that is not the point of contention. The rub is this. Is keeping/following the law required for a man to be saved and then kept to stay saved".
I do not know what others keep talking about but that is what I have been referring to from the beginning.
I say to you and everyone else.....If you would attain to eternal life by keeping the law, then keep the law. Just do it and live. There is only one problem. Have you ever done it? Have you kept the whole law every day, every hour of your life without ever failing?
The Bible is clear when it says that to be saved by keeping the law requires that a person keep the whole law perfectly, all the time. No exception is allowed. The law must be kept, all of it, without any omission, or failures, or exceptions, all of the time, twenty-four hours a day, all of your life.
Now lets see what the Bible says to YOU and me.
Romans 3:20 can not be any clearer.....
"By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His [God's] sight; for through the law comes the knowledge of sin."
There is the answer for you. Sinful man can not live up to the holy demands of God's law. No one is righteous in the eyes of God.
Again, Paul gives a summary statement when he writes, "There is no distinction; all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" in Romans 3:22-23. BOOM.....CONFIRMATION!
So why did God give the Law??? What was its purpose???? The purpose of the law was to reveal sin.
Romans 3:20.......
"Through the Law comes the knowledge of sin".
The law brings knowledge and conviction of sin.
Paul adds in Romans 7:7.....
"I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, 'You shall not covet'".
In Galatians 3:22 he wrote.....
"But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin".
It locked us up in prison and threw the key away.
The law was never intended to be a means of salvation for anyone. It's purpose was to point out our weakness and failures and lead us to Christ so we would put our faith in Him to save us.
Therefore following the law is not required to be saved or to stay saved. It is actually that simple and this is the Bible answer.
Everyone has sinned in God's sight. There are no exceptions. All are without merit in His presence. "There is no difference" between the immoral, the self–righteous or the religious person. Why? All have personally sinned because to break the law in even one small point is to "become guilty of all." If you have broken the law, ever so slightly, you have broken the law completely and are guilty. Therefore, all have fallen short of God's expectations.
Jim.....I do not have a theory. I do not have any opinions.
I have the Scriptures which you seem to be ignoring or twisting to fit YOUR theology.
Salvation is the Gift of God Jim which is available to all men who will accept Christ as Saviour.
Ephesians 2:8........
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God".
It is customary Jim to tell us the Bible verse you are quoting and not leave it up to assumption. You actually quoted....
Matt, 7:21........
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Your question to that teaching was.............."just what did Jesus mean".
Do you believe that everyone who says that they are saved today are in fact saved?????
Look at the verse. Jesus did not say that these people were saved. YOU said that not the Scriptures.
You said........
"But Jesus is saying here who is saved, not how we are saved".
I am perplexed why you keep harping of this simple easy to understand doctrine. I will try once again to say it clearly. Every believer, after he has come to Christ and has been saved, as the then normal course of living his life, that person will seek to obey the will of God. He will fail!!!! But his general course of consistant behavior is to obey the will of the Father.
Those sinners who are continually living is sin as the normal course of their lives, have no assurance of salvation whatsoever because their sinful works show them to be lost and not saved.
The phrase in Matthew....."work iniquity" is in the progressive in Greek which means literally, "They continue to work sin".
Then it must also be considered that Obviously that verse does not apply to believers today. Every single believer living or dead will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Bot one single believer will hear the Lord Jesus say......"Depart from me".
This passage has everything to do with the people during the Great Tribulation period.
"Many in THAT DAY" is a future day when salvation will mean obeying the commandments and receiving Christ but also losing their life to the A/C.
So you are saying that Jesus is speaking of "THAT DAY" in the future when salvation will mean obeying the commandments. So are you saying the ruler, who asked Jesus in Jesus' own day, how do i get to heaven was in "THAT DAY"?
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
This was in Jesus' day, not "THAT DAY". So, what, it applied in Jesus' day, it will apply in the future but it will not apply today? The bible is quite clear. So your "THAT DAY" theology is not sound doctrine.
Quickly (I have to run) I don't care who is correct based on the understanding that we both know that 5 years ago we understood less than we do now... and that 5 years from now we will know more than we know today. Therefore, exactly "what" is believed isn't as important as the development of good methodology that will allow for sounds answers to come as we grow.
As for the rest... works don't save, we are saved by God's grace, alone. That doesn't abrogate being obedient, it just means we aren't saved by being obedient. We are saved by grace but the saved obey and work and without the work it is likely the faith is void seeing faith without works is dead. Blessings!
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