Is Everybody going to heaven?

[brinny]

Good questions.

Plus, it says "If" anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. That's as far as it gets: "If". The rest is speculation, and why on earth speculate such a worst-case scenario as something along the lines of 90% of everyone who ever lived being endlessly tortured? "If" is such a small word upon which to base a sadistic doctrine.


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It's clear as a bell. You're changing it. I'd think twice about that if i was you. You know what the last part of Revelations says, don't you?

 

[enoch son]

I'm curious what the "everyone goes to heaven" crowd makes of passages such as these:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.


Ephesians 5:5-6
5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
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Once agian christian put the things of now into the things of the future. The kingdom of heaven is now. You can not serve two master's now and think that you will gian peace etc.. This has nothing to do with the ages to come.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by ralangley
These two quotes intrigued me. Where did you learn that the RCC manufactured the hell doctrine? I know there are different arguments about what "forever" means, and "perish" for that matter, but I've never heard of the RCC creating the hell doctrine in the first place. Please let me know where you got this. Thanks.
My understanding is the common concept of "hell" as being a place of fire where people are tortured for eternity came from the demon worshippers of Hinduism.

My understanding is the common concept of "hell" as being a place of fire where people are tortured for eternity came from the demon worshippers of Hinduism.

You're not sure...just assuming..where is the source of your 'understanding'?

You believe that the Bible is not the inerrant Word of God, and that He would allow His Word to be twisted, and He, mocked? Really?

It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. He will not always strive with man. He will show His face at the appointed time and heaven and earth will flee and those on earth will beg for the rocks to fall on them...but alas, there will be no place to hide. He will be here.....in all His wrath...we're spoiled, aren't we? Have taken His grace for granted, that gives us even our very breath.

 

[enoch son]

It's clear as a bell. You're changing it. I'd think twice about that if i was you. You know what the last part of Revelations says, don't you?

My interlinear say's IF too. So who change it to something else? Sounds like thier the ones in trouble.

 

[Rajni]

I'm curious what the "everyone goes to heaven" crowd makes of passages such as these:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.​

Ephesians 5:5-6
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5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
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Notice that these verses deal with outright inheriting the Kindgom, not merely being citizens of it.

Not all inhabitants of a Kingdom are inheritors of it.



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[Tamara224]

Once agian christian put the things of now into the things of the future. The kingdom of heaven is now. You can not serve two master's now and think that you will gian peace etc.. This has nothing to do with the ages to come.

Okay, interesting.

I think the phrase "will not have ANY inheritance" is pretty clearly talking about present and future things.

When the Bible talks about inheritance it usually means future stuff, too.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
It's clear as a bell. You're changing it. I'd think twice about that if i was you. You know what the last part of Revelations says, don't you?

My interlinear say's IF too. So you change it to something else? Sounds like thier the ones in trouble.

Interesting take on that verse. Interesting also that there are no qualms in twisting it and interpreting it as you see fit. Because we know that our wisdom is much greater than God's, yes?

 

[Tamara224]

Notice that these verses deal with outright inheriting the Kindgom, not merely being citizens of it.

Not all inhabitants of a Kingdom are inheritors of it.
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What do you base that claim on? Is there a Scripture passage that tells us non-inheritors will be inhabitants?

So... just trying to understand what you're saying here.... Is it your position that the wicked will inhabit the Kingdom that is owned by the righteous?

Does that mean that the righteous will have the right to kick them out if we want to? After all, they're just... uh... tenants by sufferance I think would be the legal term for it.

 

[brinny]

I'm curious what the "everyone goes to heaven" crowd makes of passages such as these:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.


Ephesians 5:5-6
5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
​

Amen.

 

[enoch son]

Okay, interesting.

I think the phrase "will not have ANY inheritance" is pretty clearly talking about present and future things.

When the Bible talks about inheritance it usually means future stuff, too.

I think you need to kept reading you just shoot yourself in the foot.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

You're not sure...just assuming..where is the source of your 'understanding'?

Help yourself to google. Type in hell and hinduism. You will get about 3.5 million hits.

You believe that the Bible is not the inerrant Word of God, and that He would allow His Word to be twisted, and He, mocked? Really?

Have you ever watched comedy central. It happens all the time.

It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. He will not always strive with man. He will show His face at the appointed time and heaven and earth will flee and those on earth will beg for the rocks to fall on them...but alas, there will be no place to hide. He will be here.....in all His wrath...we're spoiled, aren't we? Have taken His grace for granted, that gives us even our very breath.

Yes... I take His grace very for granted. It is totally reliable and really the only thing I have. Doing so is called "faith."

 

[KingZzub]

Apparently the God of love that refused to force Adam to not eat the fruit and bring the curse of sin on the entire world, is suddenly going to force the descendants of Adam into a heaven they do not want to be part of and have rejected repeatedly while on earth.

If you love people, you let them choose. Hell is not torture - it is justice. God is a good judge - what kind of judge would you think a judge was who let adulterers and rapists and murderers and paedophiles loose on the streets because it would be mean to put them in jail.

God is a just judge. Jesus paid the price for your sins, but if you refuse to accept the free gift of salvation God will not force it into you.

I realize that the idea that there is no hell is cosy. It means I don't have to spend the hours I do knocking on doors or handing out tracts in the park and praying for sick to be healed on the street. I could go home and watch ER instead. However, just wanting it doesn't make it true.

This debate has already been played out in the evangelical community in England in the last 10 years. Then a preacher named David Pawson wrote a book on hell which most people considered definitive. The Road to Hell it is called, I suggest everyone who thinks hell is a made up doctrine read it.

Blessings,
|ZZ|

 

[ralangley]

Help yourself to google. Type in hell and hinduism. You will get about 3.5 million hits.

What I find interesting is that virtually every religion has a concept our initial separation from God, and of a place of everlasting punishment for those who do wrong. Dare I suggest that its an archetype? A deep imprint in our souls that transcends our limited reason?

I love the idea of not having a hell. I love the idea of reincarnation for that matter. I'd love to know the countless people and family members that are good but unbelieving will be with me forever in Heaven. But the consequences of being wrong greatly overshadow my preferences. Whether bible translators use the word hell, hades, the pit, the Valley of Hinnor or a variety of other terms is irrelevant. If we are to believe the bible, its all a horrifying end for those who don't believe.

 

[Rajni]

What do you base that claim on? Is there a Scripture passage that tells us non-inheritors will be inhabitants?

So... just trying to understand what you're saying here.... Is it your position that the wicked will inhabit the Kingdom that is owned by the righteous?

Does that mean that the righteous will have the right to kick them out if we want to? After all, they're just... uh... tenants by sufferance I think would be the legal term for it.

I base it on the word "inherit". To inherit a Kingdom, one must be a child of the King.

At that point in Revelation where everything seems to have reached the final goal of being 100% Settled, there is still something going on necessitating a Tree of Life to provide Healing for the Nations (Revelation 22:2).

But if one takes the traditional church's eschatological stance, there wouldn't be any more healing needed, because those who are doomed-forever-in-hell aren't going to be getting any healing, and those in heaven aren't going to be needing it.

I conclude that the presence of this healing tree is for those still in a wicked condition; once they've each had enough of their fallen condition, they can avail themselves of the Tree and finally be restored.


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[enoch son]

What I find interesting is that virtually every religion has a concept our initial separation from God, and of a place of everlasting punishment for those who do wrong. Dare I suggest that its an archetype? A deep imprint in our souls that transcends our limited reason?

I love the idea of not having a hell. I love the idea of reincarnation for that matter. I'd love to know the countless people and family members that are good but unbelieving will be with me forever in Heaven. But the consequences of being wrong greatly overshadow my preferences. Whether bible translators use the word hell, hades, the pit, the Valley of Hinnor or a variety of other terms is irrelevant. If we are to believe the bible, its all a horrifying end for those who don't believe.

So our God is a horrifying end? Only man could come up with that one to tell people about a God of love. GOOD GRIEF!

 

[enoch son]

I base it on the word "inherit". To inherit a Kingdom, one must be a child of the King.

At that point in Revelation where everything seems to have reached the final goal of being 100% Settled, there is still something going on necessitating a Tree of Life to provide Healing for the Nations (Revelation 22:2).

But if one takes the traditional church's eschatological stance, there wouldn't be any more healing needed, because those who are doomed-forever-in-hell aren't going to be getting any healing, and those in heaven aren't going to be needing it.

I conclude that the presence of this healing tree is for those still in a wicked condition; once they've each had enough of their fallen condition, they can avail themselves of the Tree and finally be restored.


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Yiu know one doesn't get the inhertance till the one given it dies. I think that goes for Jesus given it and man dieing to himself to get it. all die and all made alive opens up alot of food to think about. BE HEALED NATIONS.

 

[Rajni]

Whether bible translators use the word hell, hades, the pit, the Valley of Hinnor or a variety of other terms is irrelevant. If we are to believe the bible, its all a horrifying end for those who don't believe.

Oh, it's very relevant. The bible you choose to believe was handled by the translators. The versions that have eliminated the word "hell" are the ones that are getting closer to what the original texts were trying to get at, and those original texts were God-breathed. So if they're not saying that eternal torture awaits most of mankind, then we have to question the preaching of it..

 

[Tamara224]

Oh, it's very relevant. The bible you choose to believe was handled by the translators. The versions that have eliminated the word "hell" are the ones that are getting closer to what the original texts were trying to get at, and those original texts were God-breathed. So if they're not saying that eternal torture awaits most of mankind, then we have to question the preaching of it..

I don't want to be mean by saying this, but what you are doing is a keen bit of sophistry.

If the original texts don't say anything about eternal torture, then we shouldn't preach it.
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That's a true "if-then" statement.

However, you have not proven that the original texts do not, in fact, give us a picture of eternal torture. So the "if" has not been established. As such, the "then" does not come into play. You have not met the condition precedent.

Furthermore, even if the original texts do not teach eternal torture that does not in any way prove to us that the wicked and unrepentant will go to heaven.

It is possible that if there is no eternal punishment, then the wicked will simply be annihilated. In which case, we should still be preaching the serious - eternal - consequences of rejecting Christ.

 

[Rajni]

Furthermore, even if the original texts do not teach eternal torture that does not in any way prove to us that the wicked and unrepentant will go to heaven.

It is possible that if there is no eternal punishment, then the wicked will simply be annihilated. In which case, we should still be preaching the serious - eternal - consequences of rejecting Christ.

Well, see if you are able to balance out the idea of annihilation/eternal torment with the verses found here.


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[Tamara224]

I base it on the word "inherit". To inherit a Kingdom, one must be a child of the King.

Uh You lost me. I understand that to inherit one must generally be an heir. (Unless an owner devises the property to someone else by will).

What I want to know is on what you base your claim that non-inheritors (non-heirs) will be allowed to live on the land that is not theirs. If they don't inherit it, then why are they allowed to live there?

At that point in Revelation where everything seems to have reached the final goal of being 100% Settled, there is still something going on necessitating a Tree of Life to provide Healing for the Nations (Revelation 22:2).

But if one takes the traditional church's eschatological stance, there wouldn't be any more healing needed, because those who are doomed-forever-in-hell aren't going to be getting any healing, and those in heaven aren't going to be needing it.

I conclude that the presence of this healing tree is for those still in a wicked condition; once they've each had enough of their fallen condition, they can avail themselves of the Tree and finally be restored.


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Sorry, this seems rather sketchy to me. The Tree of Life whose leaves provide healing for the nations is, IMO, talking about healing the whole land (earth) from the curse as well as redeeming human nature. That passage also says "No longer will there be any curse."

Simply removing sinners from the world does not heal the land of the decay that came in when sin entered. The whole earth suffers from the effects of the Fall. The healing that will come, IMO, means that everything will finally be redeemed.

Nor does removing sinners prevent new sinners from popping up. If we were to gather all the murderers in the world, for example, and put them in a huge prison and throw away the key, that would not mean the end of murder on earth.

In the new earth, the curse - that is, our fallen nature - will be no more.