Is Everybody going to heaven?

[brinny]

chaela, what does "Christian-seeker" mean?

 

[Svt4Him]

1. "Hell" is not in the bible.- semantics. Jesus isn't actually in the Bible if you want to use the Greek version.

2. Jesus went through quite a bit of trouble to take away the sin of the world so that it wouldn't have any victory over us.- Agree.

3. Assuming there were a "hell", God is omniscient. He knows the end from the beginning. If He, armed with this knowledge, knows that an individual will reject Him and land themselves in "hell", and yet He creates them anyway, in spite of knowing this about them, then He is, in effect, sending them to "hell".- Wrong on a few different levels. I know my children will lie, I knew that before I was a father. Knowing that doesn't make me the one responsible for their lie. I know my children will disrespect me and their mother at some time in their life. Knowing that doesn't mean that we made them do it. And we created them anyway, hoping our love will be imparted into them in a way that affects their decisions. I got another speeding ticket, which will cost me $200. Since the police know people speed on that road, I guess I could argue that it is their fault and I am not guilty...or even if I am guilty, I don't have to pay the price because they knew I'd do it....and if my father was a cop, it would all be his fault, so I wouldn't have to pay anything because that's true justice. Or perhaps if my father, the cop, was just, he'd make sure I received the fine for my misdemeanor, and in doing that he'd show no less love to me.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Um… FA ... I was referring to your analogy. Now you're telling me that your analogy isn't good enough just the way it is. Are you responding to my posts or just reacting?

Twisting the analogy to reflect the incomplete interpretation of the spoken words of Christ is what I responded to.

Your analogy isn't the Word of God, Jesus is the Word of God. Again, I was referring to your analogy when I said that it was great just the way it is.

Yes it surely was.

What are you distinguishing as being two events?

The razing of Jerusalem and the Second Coming of Christ. Jesus was prophesying both events.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I'm sorry, FA, but the statement about Jesus lying was yours, and yours alone. Again, please try to avoid putting words into other people's mouths. If that's is the best you can do at this point, I will conclude that you simply don't have any solid responses to what I've been communicating thus far, and must resort to setting up straw men just to have something to argue against.

Any belief system that teaches that one doesn't have to accept Jesus Christ in this life and yet will be saved is a FALSE RELIGION, and is full of FALSE TEACHERS.

That is SOLID. Not a strawman.

 

[Floatingaxe]

True. The word "hell" was not in the original God-breathed texts. Translators added it in later.

You might find this eye-opening:
Hell: Even Bible Translators Themselves Don't Agree

That's for sure!

"Armed with knowledge" is a figure of speech. It's a U.S. thing, I guess.

Yes, yes He did! Amen.

Very true.

Who is behind the receiving and rejecting? Who hardens Whom He will harden? Who has mercy on Whom He will have mercy?

Please show me the verses that say "what we do with Christ in this life is what determines our eternal destination."

ALL dodgy, very dodgy.

 

[Floatingaxe]

1. "Hell" is not in the bible.- semantics. Jesus isn't actually in the Bible if you want to use the Greek version.

2. Jesus went through quite a bit of trouble to take away the sin of the world so that it wouldn't have any victory over us.- Agree.

3. Assuming there were a "hell", God is omniscient. He knows the end from the beginning. If He, armed with this knowledge, knows that an individual will reject Him and land themselves in "hell", and yet He creates them anyway, in spite of knowing this about them, then He is, in effect, sending them to "hell".- Wrong on a few different levels. I know my children will lie, I knew that before I was a father. Knowing that doesn't make me the one responsible for their lie. I know my children will disrespect me and their mother at some time in their life. Knowing that doesn't mean that we made them do it. And we created them anyway, hoping our love will be imparted into them in a way that affects their decisions. I got another speeding ticket, which will cost me $200. Since the police know people speed on that road, I guess I could argue that it is their fault and I am not guilty...or even if I am guilty, I don't have to pay the price because they knew I'd do it....and if my father was a cop, it would all be his fault, so I wouldn't have to pay anything because that's true justice. Or perhaps if my father, the cop, was just, he'd make sure I received the fine for my misdemeanor, and in doing that he'd show no less love to me.

 

[icedtea]

Any belief system that teaches that one doesn't have to accept Jesus Christ in this life and yet will be saved is a FALSE RELIGION, and is full of FALSE TEACHERS.

True. Just keep posting the verses which prove this beyond any doubt and God will open the eyes of those who can see.

Gods word does not come back void.
People may disregard your words, but not the Bibles.

 

[Floatingaxe]

True. Just keep posting the verses which prove this beyond any doubt and God will open the eyes of those who can see.

Gods word does not come back void.
People may disregard your words, but not the Bibles.

But I have, and they are still so blind that they disregard the truth of God's own words in favour if men's extremely poor interpretations---unable to believe God is who He says He is and making up a cartoon character in His place, devoid of the depth that God truly has...

So very sad...it's a web and it traps and holds its victims so tightly. Only spiritual discernment reveals it....

 

[icedtea]

Jesus died (and resurrected) to keep us out of Hell. We must choose.

 

[brinny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOKbtXq-y0&NR=1

 

[Rajni]

chaela, what does "Christian-seeker" mean?

I think it all depends on who uses the icon. I'm not sure how CF itself would define it, but I use it because "Christian Pantelist" isn't currently an option.
.

 

[Rajni]

"Hell" is not in the bible.- semantics. Jesus isn't actually in the Bible if you want to use the Greek version.

That to whom the name "Jesus" refers is in the Bible. That to which the English word "hell" refers -- as well as the mainstream understanding of what "hell" involves -- is not in the Bible.

Wrong on a few different levels. I know my children will lie, I knew that before I was a father. Knowing that doesn't make me the one responsible for their lie. I know my children will disrespect me and their mother at some time in their life. Knowing that doesn't mean that we made them do it.

Human parents are not in control of their children's hearts. Our Divine creator, however, is. He was the one who hardened Pharaoh's heart (Exodus 10:27), He was the one who bound us all over to disobedience (Romans 11:32-33). See my previous post, #343 for scriptures that show Who is in the driver's seat in all this. This ties into the popular notion of "free will", which is a myth.

And we created them anyway, hoping our love will be imparted into them in a way that affects their decisions.

God created them, knowing(not merely hoping) what the outcome of their lives would be.

I got another speeding ticket, which will cost me $200. Since the police know people speed on that road, I guess I could argue that it is their fault and I am not guilty...or even if I am guilty, I don't have to pay the price because they knew I'd do it....and if my father was a cop, it would all be his fault, so I wouldn't have to pay anything because that's true justice. Or perhaps if my father, the cop, was just, he'd make sure I received the fine for my misdemeanor, and in doing that he'd show no less love to me.

Again, the police, being merely human, are not in control of the hardness or softness of your heart in the matter the way God is. Once more I invite you to read the Scriptures emphasized in post #343. With power comes responsibility, so an all-powerful deity is, accordingly, all-responsible. God is more in charge than some of the most devout Christians seem to want to believe.

 

[Rajni]

Yes it surely was.

Wait … what? You are telling us that FA's words are tantamount to God's word? ROFL; the Pope does have some competition on his hands!

The razing of Jerusalem and the Second Coming of Christ. Jesus was prophesying both events.

Futurism, an eschatological position which teaches that Jesus' 2nd Coming hasn't happened yet, is but one way of looking at it. I don't currently hold that view, but I did for a long time. That's good material for another thread …

 

[Rajni]

Any belief system that teaches that one doesn't have to accept Jesus Christ in this life and yet will be saved is a FALSE RELIGION, and is full of FALSE TEACHERS.

Accepting Jesus and experiencing salvation are one and the same thing, FA.

Any religion which teaches that one must do anything to enter into salvation is adding to the cross and implying that what Jesus did for us just plain wasn't enough.

 

[Rajni]

ALL dodgy, very dodgy.

A response which is a dodge in and of itself. Are you saying you cannot answer my questions?

Here they are again, for your convenience:

• Who is behind the receiving and rejecting?
• Who hardens Whom He will harden?
• Who has mercy on Whom He will have mercy?
• Please show me the verses that say "what we do with Christ in this life is what determines our eternal destination."

 

[Rajni]

Jesus died (and resurrected) to keep us out of Hell.

Amen!

We must choose.

Choose this day whom you will serve, yes (Joshua 24:15). God does the choosing for salvation, however. There are simply some choices we are not permitted to make. See post #343.

 

[Faulty]

Accepting Jesus and experiencing salvation are one and the same thing, FA.

Any religion which teaches that one must do anything to enter into salvation is adding to the cross and implying that what Jesus did for us just plain wasn't enough.

Isn't that a bit contradictory? The first line states that accepting Jesus (an action) is the same as experiencing (whatever that means) salvation.

Then line 2 basically states any religion is wrong that we must do anything to be saved (no action).

Which is it?

 

[Faulty]

A response which is a dodge in and of itself. Are you saying you cannot answer my questions?

Here they are again, for your convenience:

• Who is behind the receiving and rejecting?
• Who hardens Whom He will harden?
• Who has mercy on Whom He will have mercy?
• Please show me the verses that say "what we do with Christ in this life is what determines our eternal destination."

I don't think FA can't answer. I hear she's on a forced vacation.

However, these questions have been answered time and time again only to be ignored on other universalist threads. Why in the world are answers being sought to these questions (again) when the sole purpose would be to ignore those answers once again?

Truth isn't being sought around here, only mutual justification for false doctrine.

 

[Rajni]

However, these questions have been answered time and time again only to be ignored on other universalist threads. Why in the world are answers being sought to these questions (again) when the sole purpose would be to ignore those answers once again?

These exact questions? Could you please direct me to the specific posts where they've been answered? Thanks!

Truth isn't being sought around here, only mutual justification for false doctrine.

Well, that's no human's call to make, unless, like God, he can actually see inside the hearts of those involved.

Now, to demonstrate my sincerity in my involvement in this discussion, I again ask you to provide the exact locations of the posts which answered the following specific questions:

• Who is behind the receiving and rejecting?
• Who hardens Whom He will harden?
• Who has mercy on Whom He will have mercy?
• Please show me the verses that say "what we do with Christ in this life is what determines our eternal destination."

Thanks again for your help!

 

[Rajni]

Isn't that a bit contradictory? The first line states that accepting Jesus (an action) is the same as experiencing (whatever that means) salvation.

Then line 2 basically states any religion is wrong that we must do anything to be saved (no action).

In other words, belief (in Christ) is not what begets the reality (our salvation). Rather, our belief is the result of that reality. In Christ we are made alive (1 Cor 15:22).

Being born again isn't something we do. It's something that God does to us. The one being born physically does nothing to bring about their own birth. The same goes for being born spiritually. That's why it's called being born again, and why, in 1 Peter 1:3, it is said that God has caused us to be born again. It's not something we go out and try to do ourselves.