Is Everybody going to heaven?

[brinny]

Hmmmm...Floatingaxe has a point...come to think of it...it's just a round about way to say...Doth God really say....is Jesus really the only way to salvation?

That's as old as that conversation between Eve and the serpent, isn't it?

 

[Rajni]

Out-of-context is a tenet of Universalism.

FA, again, remember what you rightly said in post #470:

Pigeon-holing is not appropriate here... Now on to impersonal discussion, please!

 

[brinny]

​

"Jehovah", or what you personally believe Jehovah was saying?

see post #623

 

[Rajni]

God does not send people to hell...
Sin does.

1. "Hell" is not in the bible.

2. Jesus went through quite a bit of trouble to take away the sin of the world so that it wouldn't have any victory over us.

3. Assuming there were a "hell", God is omniscient. He knows the end from the beginning. If He, armed with this knowledge, knows that an individual will reject Him and land themselves in "hell", and yet He creates them anyway, in spite of knowing this about them, then He is, in effect, sending them to "hell".





.

 

[Rajni]

Meet Sir Licks-a-lot, my warrior cat! En garde!

Oh he's adorable! I love it!

 

[Floatingaxe]

It's basically been shouted from the rooftops around here, though I'm sure unintentionally.

If one believes that God, who knows the end from the beginning, sacrifices His Son on the cross knowing that only a small portion of mankind will believe unto salvation, He is (following their logic) in effect dying for only a small fraction of humanity. By setting up even the tiniest rule that one must do something to be saved, knowing that most will not do that one little thing, He is, in effect, neglecting that portion of humanity.

I still say that the type of salvation which specifically required believing was that of escaping the Judgment which took place during the fall of Jerusalem in AD70. Those who believed on Jesus are those in Judea who would flee to the mountains to escape the foretold events taking place (see Matthew 24).

That is a mistaken belief based on lack of knowledge that the Father gives us. His Spirit reveals to His children what the Word means. Matthew 24 refers to two events.

Take the statement in

Acts 16:31: "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved – you and your household." The general understanding of getting saved is that we can only believe for ourselves – our believing in Jesus doesn't automatically save those around us. So obviously there was something on the temporal realm from which believers would be saved that this guy's family would be saved by just his believing alone. That could very well have been Judgment day, AD70.

Amen!

"Perish" is a very broad term; I don't see how it must be limited to just "going to hell when we die" (especially since "hell" wasn't even in the original texts). As I said, I think that the perishing from which belief saved them was that wrought by God's wrath through Jerusalem's fall.

Amen. Those who didn't believe what was prophesied remained in Jerusalem, living life as though the Messiah had not been in their midst, and got creamed when Jerusalem fell big-time in 70 AD.

It's a great analogy just the way it is. And from the AD70 perspective, the dish-washer certainly didn't get off work. Because he didn't believe the Messiah and what was foretold, he chose to remain in Jerusalem "washing the dishes" that come with an old covenant Jewish lifestyle and paid dearly when the tribulation accompanying Jerusalem's Judgment Day arrived.

"Just the way it is", is not good enough. A rudimentary reading is insufficient. When we read the Word of God, we must always remember to ask the Holy Spirit to open our eyes to what He is telling us.




.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Could you perhaps address the post and not put words in people's mouths? Thanks in advance!​

People must stop telling the world that Jesus lies when he tells us that few will find Him. I will always defend His Word.

 

[Rajni]

ok. whatever it is you're attempting here or path you're trodding...or why you even post in this thread is beyond me haha

...gotta say, i did not know anything about UR, but i have learned, according to your posts here, it's the epitome of lack of clarity.....

semms kinda a muddled mish mash of jibberish to me.

Well, based on the overall feedback I've been getting, it would seem to me you are the only one having trouble understanding my posts.

Let's just stay on topic, then, shall we?



.



.

 

[Rajni]

Hmmmm...Floatingaxe has a point...come to think of it...it's just a round about way to say...Doth God really say....is Jesus really the only way to salvation?

That's as old as that conversation between Eve and the serpent, isn't it?

Was this post meant for a different thread? I'm not sure which post you're addressing here....


.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I agree, belief makes all the difference in the world. However, God is the one who alone chooses who believes on Him now and who doesn't.

Those He doesn't choose to have believe on Him now are not going to be cursed eternally for something that they could not do for themselves apart from His granting it to them in the first place.

Please give us the Scriptural reference that tells us all that if one does not believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour, is not going to pay for their sins with death. Tell us that they can forget about God's great sacrifice in providing salvation in this life and they can defer it until later/

Please tell us how God has plainly told us this truth, so that it is unmistakeable--in other words, that salvation in this life is deferrable until the next.

I want to see it. I want to see how God has told us that the wages of sin is NOT death, and that the gift of God which is eternal life is for all those who didn't bother to know Jesus.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Floatingaxe]

"Jehovah", or what you personally believe Jehovah was saying?

What I personally believe has not been tainted by a cult's dogma, but rather I believe what the indwelling Holy Spirit says to me. Only those in Christ will live. Eternal life is found only in Christ. All those born into Adam's race will suffer death because of their sin. That is our destiny--but in Christ, that destiny is altered. All those reborn into Christ will live. Those who do are not reborn in Him will meet their default destiny and die as sinners.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Hmmmm...Floatingaxe has a point...come to think of it...it's just a round about way to say...Doth God really say....is Jesus really the only way to salvation?

That's as old as that conversation between Eve and the serpent, isn't it?

Amen! Satan always uses a bit of the truth to pose a lie that weak men will believe.

 

[Floatingaxe]

FA, again, remember what you rightly said in post #470:

Pigeon-holing is not appropriate here... Now on to impersonal discussion, please!​

​

It's as plain as the nose on my face. It is as simple as refuting a Jehovah's Witness, a Mormon or a Muslim, or any other cult.

 

[Floatingaxe]

1. "Hell" is not in the bible.

FALSE.

2. Jesus went through quite a bit of trouble to take away the sin of the world so that it wouldn't have any victory over us.

TRUE. Too bad it is treated so nonchalantly.

3. Assuming there were a "hell", God is omniscient. He knows the end from the beginning. If He, armed with this knowledge, knows that an individual will reject Him and land themselves in "hell", and yet He creates them anyway, in spite of knowing this about them, then He is, in effect, sending them to "hell".

Why should He be "armed"? God created us to know Him. We all have that inner knowledge of God, and we need to know Jesus. We are given that choice to receive or reject---some of us many times, some of us, once only. What we do with Christ in this life is what determines our eternal destination.

It is damnable to preach another gospel.




.

 

[Rajni]

Only those in Christ will live. Eternal life is found only in Christ. All those born into Adam's race will suffer death because of their sin. That is our destiny--but in Christ, that destiny is altered. All those reborn into Christ will live. Those who do are not reborn in Him will meet their default destiny and die as sinners.

Amen! And who causes us to be reborn?

1 Peter 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"

That's why it's called being born again. Being "born again" is something that is done to us; it's not something we do ourselves.

Just as a baby isn't able to bring about his own physical birth, a person isn't able to bring about his own spiritual one.

My point in saying all that is this: Christian Partialists can preach ET all they want, but they need to remember that those who end up in "hell" were sent there by God who, in His Omniscience, knew exactly what He was doing – and where they'd be going – when He created them. No one gets born again until God births them. So those He chooses not to birth are those He's electing to send to hell forever.

 

[Rajni]

"Just the way it is", is not good enough. A rudimentary reading is insufficient.

Um… FA ... I was referring to your analogy. Now you're telling me that your analogy isn't good enough just the way it is. Are you responding to my posts or just reacting?

When we read the Word of God, we must always remember to ask the Holy Spirit to open our eyes to what He is telling us.

Your analogy isn't the Word of God, Jesus is the Word of God. Again, I was referring to your analogy when I said that it was great just the way it is.

Matthew 24 refers to two events.

What are you distinguishing as being two events?

 

[Rajni]

Stop telling the world that Jesus lies whern he tells us that few will find Him. I will always defend His Word.

I'm sorry, FA, but the statement about Jesus lying was yours, and yours alone. Again, please try to avoid putting words into other people's mouths. If that's is the best you can do at this point, I will conclude that you simply don't have any solid responses to what I've been communicating thus far, and must resort to setting up straw men just to have something to argue against.

 

[Rajni]

Please give us the Scriptural reference that tells us all that if one does not believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour, is not going to pay for their sins with death.

Since you are the one making this assertion, it's up to you to provide Scriptural references to back it up. Or, at the very least, show us where anyone here has said "if one does not believe in Jesus Christ as Savior, will not pay for their sins with death".

Tell us that they can forget about God's great sacrifice in providing salvation in this life and they can defer it until later

It would seem you beat me to it. Which is fine, because I wouldn't say such a thing in the first place.

Please tell us how God has plainly told us this truth, so that it is unmistakeable--in other words, that salvation in this life is deferrable until the next.

You are making this assertion, so it's up to you to back it up with Scripture.

I want to see it. I want to see how God has told us that the wages of sin is NOT death, and that the gift of God which is eternal life is for all those who didn't bother to know Jesus.

Me too. Where are you getting this? What do you mean by "bothering to know" Jesus? It is God who grants this knowledge, so any "bothering to do" anything towards that end is for Him to bring about.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Amen!

 

[Rajni]

It's as plain as the nose on my face. It is as simple as refuting a Jehovah's Witness, a Mormon or a Muslim, or any other cult.

We could add to that list, but it might make some in this section of CF extremely uncomfortable.



.
.

 

[Rajni]

FALSE.

True. The word "hell" was not in the original God-breathed texts. Translators added it in later.

You might find this eye-opening:
Hell: Even Bible Translators Themselves Don't Agree

TRUE. Too bad it is treated so nonchalantly.

That's for sure!

Why should He be "armed"?

"Armed with knowledge" is a figure of speech. It's a U.S. thing, I guess.

God created us to know Him.

Yes, yes He did! Amen.

We all have that inner knowledge of God, and we need to know Jesus.

Very true.

We are given that choice to receive or reject---some of us many times, some of us, once only.

Who is behind the receiving and rejecting? Who hardens Whom He will harden? Who has mercy on Whom He will have mercy?

What we do with Christ in this life is what determines our eternal destination.

Please show me the verses that say "what we do with Christ in this life is what determines our eternal destination."





.