Is Everybody going to heaven?

[Rajni]

"The whole world", in it's Jewish context means that God's Salvation isn't limited to descendents of Abraham anymore, but is also open to Gentiles. It does not mean that every gentile is saved.

So He's Savior of only some of the world.

Got it.

Why do you keep taking everything out of context?

Boy, that sounds like it would be alot of work ... Can you show me precisely where I've "taken everything out of context"?




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[Yekcidmij]

So He's Savior of only some of the world.

Got it.

Those that believe in Him, yes. He's not a savior but a judge to those that don't believe. Sorry if that offends you.

 

[Rajni]

Those that believe in Him, yes. He's not a savior but a judge to those that don't believe. Sorry if that offends you.

No worries, it doesn't offend me at all. I simply believe a bit differently, that He is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 2:4)

"Especially" of believers ... not "exclusively".


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[brinny]

Originally Posted by Yekcidmij
Those that believe in Him, yes. He's not a savior but a judge to those that don't believe. Sorry if that offends you.

No worries, it doesn't offend me at all. I simply believe a bit differently, that He is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 2:4)

"Especially" of believers ... not "exclusively".


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pardon me, but you sound confused or is it just confusing reading your posts?

 

[Yekcidmij]

No worries, it doesn't offend me at all. I simply believe a bit differently, that He is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 2:4)

"Especially" of believers ... not "exclusively".

What does 2:4 say?

"who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"

Now does it say that everyone is saved and that everyone comes to knowledge of truth? Nope. Who is the "everyone" refering to? It's talking about Jews plus Gentlies. He wants all men to be saved, not just Jews anymore. "All men" means it's not just Jewish believers who are saved, but "all men", Jews and Gentiles who believe. He's writing with this intent because Timothy, a GENTILE teacher, needs to understand it. And my 2:4 doesn't say "especially believers". Actually, none of them do. You are just blatantly reading into the text now and prove one of my points - eisigesis.

2:7 For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle – I am telling the truth; I am not lying – and a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.


Again, you don't feel the need to address all the verses that have been posted, all that has been done by you is to try posting another verse instead. This a fallacious tactic called a red herring. A verse is posted to you, and you effectually just say, "well look at this verse". I'm sorry there is a tension in your worldview where you don't feel the need to beleive the entire witness of scripture. If you don't want to believe it all, then just say your opinion is that parts of scripture are wrong and get it over with. When you cherrypick scripture, just own up to what you're doing. If you want to read your theology into the text and invent your own context, just say that's what you're going to do so everyone knows.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by chaela
No worries, it doesn't offend me at all. I simply believe a bit differently, that He is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 2:4)

"Especially" of believers ... not "exclusively".

What does 2:4 say?

"who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"

Now does it say that everyone is saved and that everyone comes to knowledge of truth? Nope. Who is the "everyone" refering to? It's talking about Jews plus Gentlies. He wants all men to be saved, not just Jews anymore. "All men" means it's not just Jewish believers who are saved, but "all men", Jews and Gentiles who believe. He's writing with this intent because Timothy, a GENTILE teacher, needs to understand it. And my 2:4 doesn't say "especially believers". Actually, none of them do. You are just blatantly reading into the text now and prove one of my points - eisigesis.

2:7 For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle – I am telling the truth; I am not lying – and a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.


Again, you don't feel the need to address all the verses that have been posted, all that has been done by you is to try posting another verse instead. This a fallacious tactic called a red herring. A verse is posted to you, and you effectually just say, "well look at this verse". I'm sorry there is a tension in your worldview where you don't feel the need to beleive the entire witness of scripture. If you don't want to believe it all, then just say your opinion is that parts of scripture are wrong and get it over with. When you cherrypick scripture, just own up to what you're doing.

amen.

 

[Rajni]

What does 2:4 say?

"who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"

Now does it say that everyone is saved and that everyone comes to knowledge of truth? Nope.

Nor does it say that most everyone won't be saved nor come to a knowledge of the truth.

Do you seriously believe that God, who knows the end from the beginning, would indulge in the desire for all men to come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved if He thought even for a moment that most of them would not?

2:7 For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle – I am telling the truth; I am not lying – and a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Amen!

Again, you don't feel the need to address all the verses that have been posted, all that has been done by you is to try posting another verse instead.

Could you show me where "all that has been done by me is to try posting another verse instead", and that it is due to my not "feeling the need to address all the verses that have been posted"? (Do you know how big CF is ... one would essentially have to not have a life outside cyberspace to have the time to address "all the verses that have been posted").

A verse is posted to you, and you effectually just say, "well look at this verse".

Could you show me where I effectually just say "well look at this verse"?

I'm sorry there is a tension in your worldview where you don't feel the need to beleive the entire witness of scripture.

You're making alot of claims here. Again, could you pinpoint where exactly this tension in my worldview is, and precisely where you know what I do or don't feel the need to believe? In attempting to analyze other posters, you're derailing the thread.

If you don't want to believe it all, then just say your opinion is that parts of scripture are wrong and get it over with. When you cherrypick scripture, just own up to what you're doing.

A little bit of advice: On debate forums, it's always "cherrypicking scriptures" when they don't prove one's own point. But you knew that!



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[Rajni]

pardon me, but you sound confused or is it just confusing reading your posts?

Which one do you need help figuring out?


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[Yekcidmij]

Nor does it say that most everyone won't be saved nor come to a knowledge of the truth.

So you knowingly posted a verse that didn't prove your point? Is that deceitful?

Do you seriously believe that God, who knows the end from the beginning, would indulge in the desire for all men to come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved if He thought even for a moment that most of them would not?

I go by the witness of scripture. God says not all men are saved. So I seriously believe that God has revealed Himself in history and those events are recorded in what we now refer to as the bible. I seriously believe that.

Matt 26:28 "for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

"Many", not all. Do you need more verses? I have a few pages worth.

John 10:3 The doorkeeper opens the door for him, and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 10:4 When he has brought all his own sheep out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they recognize his voice.

10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

10:14 “I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me – 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father – and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Are all men His "sheep"? Nope. His "sheep" are the ones that know His voice. Do all men know the voice of the Messiah? Nope.

Matt 25:32 All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Heck, not all men are even sheep, much less His sheep. Some are goats.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by Yekcidmij
Those that believe in Him, yes. He's not a savior but a judge to those that don't believe. Sorry if that offends you.

Originally Posted by chaela

No worries, it doesn't offend me at all. I simply believe a bit differently, that He is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 2:4)

"Especially" of believers ... not "exclusively".

then i posted a response about you appearing confused...ie:it is confusing reading your posts...or what i'm thinking now...that you appear confused.....hmmm

Which one do you need help figuring out?


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I rest my case. You do not make a solid case for what it is you claim to believe in....you just appear to be authoring confusion...and one thing is certain here...God is not the author of confusion.

You continue dancing in circles....at least that is my impression of what you've been doing here.

 

[Rajni]

So you knowingly posted a verse that didn't prove your point? Is that deceitful?

How does that verse not prove my point?

I go by the witness of scripture. God says not all men are saved.

Where does God specifically say "Not all men are saved", or even "Not all men will be freed from corruption?"

Matt 26:28 "for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." "Many", not all. Do you need more verses? I have a few pages worth.

Which do you think comprises "many": "All" or merely "a few"?

John 10:3 The doorkeeper opens the door for him, and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 10:4 When he has brought all his own sheep out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they recognize his voice.

10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

10:14 "I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me – 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father – and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Are all men His "sheep"? Nope.

Will all men ultimately be His "sheep"? Yep. I've got more than a few pages worth of scripture to support that, but since such an effort wouldn't be supportive of Christian Partialism, it might be considered "cherry picking", so I'll spare you the Maraschinos.

His "sheep" are the ones that know His voice.

Do all men know the voice of the Messiah? Nope.

Will all men ultimately know the voice of the Messiah? Yep.





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[Rajni]

then i posted a response about you appearing confused...ie:it is confusing reading your posts...or what i'm thinking now...that you appear confused.....hmmm

LOL, okay, now I'm finding your posts confusing, Brinny. "Hmmm" is right!

I rest my case. You do not make a solid case for what it is you claim to believe in....you just appear to be authoring confusion...and one thing is certain here...God is not the author of confusion.

No, your case isn't rested yet.

You didn't answer my question. You mentioned that my posts (plural) were confusing. Then you pick, as the Shining Example of how confusing my posts are, my most recent one, which merely offers to help you figure out whichever post(s) were confusing you.

So forgive me if I come away with the same impression of you: Dancing in circles, stirring up confusion, due to not having any solid response to what I've been contributing here.






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[Floatingaxe]

This is not true Sammul had a body when Saul had him called up from the grave.

When God resurrects, He does it completely. What's yer point?

 

[Floatingaxe]

So Jesus failed on the cross to take all judgement?

No. People fail HIM when they reject His sacrifice for them.

 

[Floatingaxe]

So walking on the water before that event is out of the question? Our is God - God and He could do whatever He was told by the Father?

Could you make more sense out of this please? I doubt anyone understood. Thanks.

 

[brinny]

LOL, okay, now I'm finding your posts confusing, Brinny. "Hmmm" is right!



No, your case isn't rested yet.

You didn't answer my question. You mentioned that my posts (plural) were confusing. Then you pick, as the Shining Example of how confusing my posts are, my most recent one, which merely offers to help you figure out whichever post(s) were confusing you.

So forgive me if I come away with the same impression of you: Dancing in circles, stirring up confusion, due to not having any solid response to what I've been contributing here.






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ok. whatever it is you're attempting here or path you're trodding...or why you even post in this thread is beyond me haha

...gotta say, i did not know anything about UR, but i have learned, according to your posts here, it's the epitome of lack of clarity.....

semms kinda a muddled mish mash of jibberish to me.

 

[Floatingaxe]

This has to do with taking the God-breathed Scriptures seriously when they declare that God is the Savior of the whole world (not just a small fraction of it)..

Who has said that Jesus died for only a portion of all humanity? Which people did He neglect? Greeks? Asians? Caucasians? Lefties? Redheads? Taxi-drivers?

No, Jesus died for all! We take the Scriptures seriously when we believe what they say about that: that God loved us so much He sent His Son to die in our place so we won't have to perish. all we need to do is.....believe! (John 3:16)

No belief? Then you pay for your sins yourself. It is like a rich man coming in and paying for your expensive meal at a restaurant, but you say, no thanks, I'll pay for my own--even though you haven't enough money and you end up washing huge stacks of filthy dishes to do so.

Now please do not extrapolate that even the dishwasher gets off work--it doesn't hold here. It is just a simple analogy and it is not meant to go that far in representing Judgment.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Amen. Few find it. However, it doesn't unequivocally state "most will die in unbelief and miss their salvation".

Let's take a look at the above verse, though, while we're here, being careful not to claim the "correct" interpretation of a verse by adding words and ideas that aren't there (otherwise, one runs the risk of adding to God's word).

It says that few will find the narrow gateway and difficult road to life. Is our salvation actually based on a literal "good work" on our part of finding a literal gateway or walking along a rugged road located somewhere? Or do you think Jesus was speaking in figurative terms here?

The most likely answer to these questions (depending on what flavor of Christianity one hails from of course) would be that it's figurative, that the gate is Jesus and the road is obeying His commandments.

Okay, then, few there be that find Jesus. Is this not much of a shocker, when we read in Romans 3:9-12:

"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is no one who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.'"
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Not even one. Wow! So, yeah, to say that "few" either find Jesus or obey His commandments seems to be a very nice way of saying that nobody finds or obeys Him.

How many does He find, though? Now that gets interesting!

Read any parable about the lost whatever being sought with no rest until it's found, and you have your answer. No, those parables are not about people seeking God until they find Him, because, as we just saw in Romans 3 above, nobody does that. So interpreting any parable to say that they do would be to contradict this fact. No, those parables are talking about God looking for each and every last member of humankind until He finds them and brings them to Himself.

So, we're back to where we started. Again, let me know when you find the verse that clearly states that "most will die in unbelief and miss their salvation".

All this song and dance just to say,"I don't believe Jesus. He is just a liar." ???

 

[Floatingaxe]

The argument isn't about whether or not God has ever cursed, indeed, He has done that.

Let me repeat, the Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written, "A curse on everyone who is hung on a tree!" (Galatians 3:13). So to be cursed isn't necessarily a permanent condition, given that Jesus, who outright became a curse in our place, is sitting in Heaven now, at the right hand of the Father.

The point is, those who don't avail themselves of the cross will suffer the curse of God.

 

[Floatingaxe]

FA, remember what you rightly said in post #470:

Pigeon-holing is not appropriate here... Now on to impersonal discussion, please!

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UR's are the ones coming here and spouting out-of-(biblical) context rhetoric. That's not pigeon-holing. You people freely and proudly proclaim who you are. |It's not personal, either.