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Featured is deceving the same thing as lying?

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Cement, Dec 30, 2018.

  1. UnprofitableServant

    UnprofitableServant ThyWillBeDone

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    The best way to work out if they are the same thing is to find out the end result, or fruit.

    Is the goal of using deception lead to a person understanding the truth of the situation, or does it lead them to not find the truth of the situation?

    Is the goal of lying to a person result in them understanding the truth of the situation, or does it lead them to not find the truth of the situation?

    If we answer these questions honestly, then we will have the answer to your question.

    In peace
     
  2. AfterThought

    AfterThought Thirst 2 Given & Know

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    It comes back the very question people have been debating for years what is the truth
     
  3. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    The way I see it, when you're born again and the Holy Ghost guides you, you do not beguile others. If they believe something false then you can simply leave them in beguilement and that's not a sin. But to beguile is a sin. Definition:

    Definition of beguile
    transitive verb

    1 : hoodwink beguiled her classmates into doing the work for her

    2 : to engage the interest of by or as if by guile His seductive voice beguiled the audience.

    3 : to lead by deception beguiled into ambush

    4 : to while away especially by some agreeable occupation also : divert sense 2 The seven poems were written to beguile the tedium of a sea voyage. — Vernon Louis Parrington

     
  4. GoldenKingGaze

    GoldenKingGaze Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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    Think of Bonhoeffer in Nazi Germany. He didn't lie enough.

    Uncleanness is listed in the Gospel, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, slanders or false witness. So if something has been done wrong and there are lies told to find the wrong person guilty, then that is unclean.
     
  5. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    What are the specifics of the situation you have in mind?

    The context of the question matters, because it didn't come out of thin air.
     
  6. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Also war.
     
  7. PaulCyp1

    PaulCyp1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The keyword here is deception. Deceiving someone, regarding something they have a right to know, is still deceipt whether you do it through words or other means.
     
  8. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    Legally speaking, yes. Deceiving and lying are the same thing.
     
  9. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    How so? If I wear a disguise will I be tried for perjury?
     
  10. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    Right, and also the Hebrew midwives (Exodus 1:15-20). If you're doing it to preserve innocent life, I believe it's permissible.
     
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  11. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    I wouldn't count that because I don't believe there's a "good" way to fight a war, though there are degrees of relative evil. In war, it's not a game, and it's expected that both sides lie to each other, kill each other, and do whatever they can to worsen the opponent's situation. There are degrees of that. The Geneva Convention essentially is an agreement that we won't take that beyond a certain level in the ways that it enumerates. And to the degree that civilian casualties are reduced (long-term and short-term), the less bad it is. But we can't avoid the badness of it.
     
  12. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    However, in scripture there is much deception in warfare.

    I'd argue that all the deception practiced by God in scripture is a matter of warfare.

    What scripture actually prohibits is deceiving people with whom you are supposed to be in good faith.

    Scripture does not, as a practice, prohibit deceiving people who are trying to kill you.
     
  13. Foxfyre

    Foxfyre Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think we have to evaluate degrees and/or forms of lying and degrees and/or forms of deception. In some cases, deception is as bad as or worse than the worst lie. And sometimes not sinful at all.

    For instance, if I deceive my husband by telling him I need milk from the store, I might also be lying, but when the intent is to set up the SURPRISE!!!! for his birthday party, I don't really think that gives me a blemish on my report card in heaven. :)

    But if I deliberately deceive somebody into doing something harmful or dangerous or to cheat or manipulate him/her, I think that is a grievous and serious sin.

    Likewise if I lie or exaggerate or omit pertinent facts in order to hurt or harm somebody whether it be my immediate neighbor or coworker or an elected leader or whomever, that is bearing false witness which God has said we must not do. But if I tell a child to get to bed so Santa can come, it of course is both a lie and a deception, but I have a hard time believing it is a sin.
     
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  14. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    It's worth pointing out that a very large number of posters are appealing to the principle that the end justifies the mean. In your case you claim that lying is good when it brings about the good end of surprising your husband on his birthday. Philosophically speaking, this is poor reasoning. Just because something results in a good outcome does not mean it is itself good. Hitler and the Marxists are great examples of folks who thought that it was okay to break a few eggs to get an omelette.

    (This also illustrates why random folks on the internet aren't the best source for moral advice)
     
  15. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    God seems to reason the same way. He breaks lots and lots of eggs.
     
  16. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    Unfortunately many do mistake themselves for God.
     
  17. Foxfyre

    Foxfyre Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Marx and Hitler were intent on establishing power and control at the expense of harming some on the pretense that they were benefiting others. Unlike Hitler, Marx may have had better motives, but the deception and the lie were destructive and indefensible just the same.

    A harmless deception that has no detrimental effect of any kind on anybody, that is strictly intended to benefit somebody and harm no one, and that is immediately and intentionally obvious once the objective is achieved, is a very, VERY different thing.
     
  18. dstamps

    dstamps New Member Supporter

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    A general rule should be to 'put yourself in the other person's shoes' based on what you know about them; and then ask yourself, "Would I want this done to me if I was them?"
     
  19. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    No, it's the same principle. If lies were harmless then you wouldn't go out of your way to justify them by appealing to some good end.
     
  20. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Often police officers are when investigating a crime, but they are allowed to do it for the greater good.
     
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