Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

Saint Steven · Mar 5, 2019

JAL said:
You objected to authoritative conscience. I replied, well then, refute the example given in post 273, namely where a man tells his son to clean his room 7 days a week. I've given that challenge on multiple threads over the years, and never seen a rebuttal, not even an attempted one.

If a boy cleaned his room five days a week, how unclean would it be on days six and seven? Or on day two for that matter?

The folks that serve in the military figured this out pretty quickly. They set up their quarters to pass inspection. They never actually use any of the items. It is just a proper display to pass inspection.

Our seven day a week boy would do the same thing. If Dad expected him to keep his room clean, he would just play somewhere else. The real villain in this story is the Dad.

What were you saying about conscience?

ICONO'CLAST · Mar 5, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That argument can be made either way.

It doesn't say that there will be an interruption.
Obviously the things referred to are happening at that very moment and will be happening in the last days. The unbiased inference would be that these things would continue, not that they would be interrupted.

Acts 2:17-20
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

Acts 2:39
The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—
for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

when peter quotes Joel...in acts 2:16 he says this is that which was spoken of by Joel...this is that.

ICONO'CLAST · Mar 5, 2019

Saint Steven said:
These gifts (manifestations) were given to make us a complete body of believers.
The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” - 1Cor.12:21

Those who deny certain gifts are throwing away important body parts. Then they wonder why the church is an invalid.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. And yet I will show you the most excellent way.

Nonsense..these were not the norm, then and they are not happening now.

JAL · Mar 5, 2019

Saint Steven said:
It's an illustration. What's to refute?
I already said your premise is false. That seems like a rebuttal to me.

"You're wrong". That's your rebuttal of an argument? Nevermind, I see I am wasting my time.

ICONO'CLAST · Mar 5, 2019

Saint Steven said:
What about Joel's prophecy? (prophecy in the last days)

Acts 2:17-20
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great
and glorious day of the Lord.

Start at vs 16;
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

It was happening at pentecost...done deal.

Saint Steven · Mar 5, 2019

ICONO'CLAST said:
Start at vs 16;
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

It was happening at pentecost...done deal.

Nope. Look at what else included in "those days" vs 19-20.

Acts 2:17-20
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great
and glorious day of the Lord.

Saint Steven · Mar 5, 2019

ICONO'CLAST said:
when peter quotes Joel...in acts 2:16 he says this is that which was spoken of by Joel...this is that.

Peter also said this.

Acts 2:39
The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Saint Steven · Mar 5, 2019

1 Corinthians 14:39
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

ICONO'CLAST · Mar 5, 2019

Saint Steven said:
1 Corinthians 14:39
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

Yes...and if we were in Cornith Greece we could consider that verse as instructing us also.
Those times have past and we are in the USA.

Saint Steven · Mar 5, 2019

ICONO'CLAST said:
Yes...and if we were in Cornith Greece we could consider that verse as instructing us also.
Those times have past and we are in the USA.

Does this one only apply in Jerusalem?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

ICONO'CLAST · Mar 5, 2019

---SE---

Joel speaks of the kingly rule from Zion and Jerusalem of the resurrected King. Jesus received the promise of the Spirit not leaving Him in the grave, but raising up all believers in Him by Spirit baptism .
JOEL said whoever calls upon Him will be saved.vs21

Dave L · Mar 6, 2019

Saint Steven said:
So, the question was, "Is scripture perfect?"
You are defining "perfect" as complete.
So, the question as defined: Is scripture complete?
Like I asked earlier, is there room for faith?
If so, it would have to be incomplete.

I think the perfect to come would be Christ, not the scriptures.
The scriptures are neither perfect nor complete. IMHO
I suppose that makes me a heretic on some level.

Scripture is complete. It would not be if tongues and prophecy, which filled the void until completed, were still viable.

Saint Steven · Mar 6, 2019

Dave L said:
Scripture is complete. It would not be if tongues and prophecy, which filled the void until completed, were still viable.

What we call "scripture" is a canonized collection of writings. (thanks to the RCC) Not the completion of a planned text. How can we call it complete in the sense that you are using? I think the work "perfect" (as translated) is in reference to the return of Christ, or our transformation at the second coming. Is that not a reasonable view in your estimation?

Dave L · Mar 6, 2019

Saint Steven said:
What we call "scripture" is a canonized collection of writings. (thanks to the RCC) Not the completion of a planned text. How can we call it complete in the sense that you are using? I think the work "perfect" (as translated) is in reference to the return of Christ, or our transformation at the second coming. Is that not a reasonable view in your estimation?

So God doesn't watch over his word? And control its presentation? Are you not adding to God's word by your estimation when "prophesying or speaking in tongues"?

ICONO'CLAST · Mar 6, 2019

ace of hearts said:
Then Scripture doesn't apply to people in the USA, must be some kind of cruel joke.

All scripture is for all Christians. That being said, some portions were written for those people in that place at that time. In the first century, there were sign gifts manifest. Paul gave instructions for them on how to use these gifts.
When the Apostles were gone, so where the sign gifts.
You were not there. You do not have tongues. There are no Apostles on earth today.

ICONO'CLAST · Mar 6, 2019

ace of hearts said:
And people calling themselves Christians can't figure out why the world laughs at them as foolish idiots.

If you try and defend this error you will give evidence of why that might happen.

LoveofTruth · Mar 6, 2019

JohnB445 said:
knowledgable Pentecostals and Charismatics/ other denominations would point out that there are many counterfeits out there masking the real gift.

usually, the Cessationist will use the worst examples out there to rest their case, while the Constitutionalist will point out that the evidence they showed, only showed the counterfeit version of the gift and not the genuine real gift of the Holy Spirit.

For example from what I heard from a Pentecostal, "Speaking in tongues is not weird babblings, but like speaking a fluent language that no one knows" They do not speak the language through their own power.

They would say there are real tongues, and then there is the counterfeit one.

I haven't studied scripture enough to side with either one, so my position is (I don't know which doctrine is true yet).

But for those who have studied it, is this an easy doctrine to figure out?

I don't want to be missing out on the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit, but at the same time, I want to be cautious.

Start by believing that the letters to the churches in all the epistles are still applicable for the churches today.

And know of a truth that there is not one verse that says the gifts of the Spirit have ceased

ace of hearts · Mar 6, 2019

Dave L said:
So God doesn't watch over his word? And control its presentation? Are you not adding to God's word by your estimation when "prophesying or speaking in tongues"?

No!

Saint Steven · Mar 6, 2019

Dave L said:
So God doesn't watch over his word? And control its presentation? Are you not adding to God's word by your estimation when "prophesying or speaking in tongues"?

I don't put a fence around what God is allowed to do.
Did God say He was done speaking when the RCC canonized the Bible for us?

ace of hearts · Mar 6, 2019

ICONO'CLAST said:
If you try and defend this error you will give evidence of why that might happen.

I've seen the show. No thanks.

Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

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