Is Christianity Bad News for Women?

[PloverWing]

Well after being told that christian advice about women being disciplined or abused in marriage, isnt mainstream but extremely fringe...... this report on Saturday by the Australian Broadcasting Commission (ABC) 'Their cross to bear': The Catholic women told to forgive domestic violence

The idea that men should be actively encouraged to discipline their wives, in the way that was proposed on that genderroles.com web site, is a fringe idea in the 21st century.

On the other hand, the idea that if men are abusive towards their wives, the wives just have to put up with it, because of their marriage vows, and because Christian women are required to forgive -- that idea is much more mainstream. I've encountered it in some of the churches in my history. That's part of why the Handmaid's Tale quote affected me so much: "Maybe it's all about who can do what to whom and be forgiven for it." Too-easy forgiveness from the church, and required forgiveness from wives, can be terribly damaging to people's lives.

 

[Zoii]

The idea that men should be actively encouraged to discipline their wives, in the way that was proposed on that genderroles.com web site, is a fringe idea in the 21st century.

On the other hand, the idea that if men are abusive towards their wives, the wives just have to put up with it, because of their marriage vows, and because Christian women are required to forgive -- that idea is much more mainstream. I've encountered it in some of the churches in my history. That's part of why the Handmaid's Tale quote affected me so much: "Maybe it's all about who can do what to whom and be forgiven for it." Too-easy forgiveness from the church, and required forgiveness from wives, can be terribly damaging to people's lives.

Ive really railed against the concept of forgiveness, particularly in the context of violence against women. Husband or not. Why would someone abused be obligated to say to their abuser - I forgive you - regardless of whether the abuser sought forgiveness or not.

To me it reeks of control and secondary abuse. Worse- subjugation

 

[WolfGate]

Sometimes well-meaning people, who would never advocate discipline or abuse, get themselves caught by the grounds for divorce in Mathew 19:9. They reason that since abuse is not grounds for divorce, then the woman is ultimately better off staying with the man (who minimizes his actions and promises to be better) than separating and trying to make it alone. So they advise a woman to try and make things work when she really should leave.

While I appreciate that many leave their marriage based on what are simply disappointments and don't have biblical grounds for divorce, my interpretation is that Mathew 19:9 is making the point that only those rare things that tear one flesh of marriage apart should cause someone to leave what God joined together.

To the argument that abuse is not mentioned specifically so they can't leave for that, I point to the principal in Luke 14. The welfare of the victim outweighs the fact that the specific circumstances were not detailed in a list of exceptions to the law.

Luke 14
Jesus at a Pharisee’s House

14 One Sabbath, when Jesus went to eat in the house of a prominent Pharisee, he was being carefully watched. 2 There in front of him was a man suffering from abnormal swelling of his body. 3 Jesus asked the Pharisees and experts in the law, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?” 4 But they remained silent. So taking hold of the man, he healed him and sent him on his way.

5 Then he asked them, “If one of you has a child or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull it out?” 6 And they had nothing to say.

 

[bekkilyn]

I'm sure that a case could be made for abuse being some form of "spiritual adultery" in a similar sense to how we commit adultery with God by putting other things before him, but I haven't yet thought it all through.

 

[Dave-W]

I'm sure that a case could be made for abuse being some form of "spiritual adultery" in a similar sense to how we commit adultery with God by putting other things before him, but I haven't yet thought it all through.

I have given that some thought since my own mom and dad divorced over domestic abuse issues. My mom also believed dad was having an affair, but that was never proved.

I would think a case could be made on the abandonment issue that Paul lists in 1 Cor 7:

15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.​

To my mind, this verse puts the abuser into the unbeliever category:

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
​

Someone who is abusing his wife is NOT "providing for his own." Period. End of story.

 

[Zoii]

@Paidiske I wonder if you saw last night's ABC 730 report. It was a follow-up to the level of domestic violence within christianity. This time it was reports the ABC received from the wives of Anglican Clergy who suffered domestic violence and rape.

Raped, tracked, humiliated: Clergy wives speak about domestic violence

 

[Paidiske]

No, I didn't; thank you for the link.

 

[Dave-W]

Wow Zoii, I just read the article. I am appalled. What struck me the hardest was the ungodly sense of entitlement, that the higher one rose in the organization, the worse he got in demanding his own way.

Where is self sacrifice? Where is humility? IMO they never should have been ordained in the first place.

And as to the constant and violent demands for sex, the church as a whole needs to go back to the first century Jewish attitude (that all the apostles were raised in) that sex is a wife's RIGHT and a husband's responsibility; rather than the pagan Greek Roman model which reversed that.

 

[Zoii]

The ABC does compelling investigative journalism. This shocked me

 

[tulipbee]

funny how the mother if God gets 100% credits while the father of God gets 0% credit. you probably have no idea who I'm talking about. that's the point.

 

[Paidiske]

IMO they never should have been ordained in the first place.

Spot on. But many of them were probably ordained before the current era of psychological testing and rigorous assessment. I know (much) older clergy who can tell you about when being selected for ordination meant having tea at bishopscourt and a civilised chat about the cricket, and if the bishop thought you were "sound" (which had as much to do with your table manners as your theology) you'd be a shoo-in.

So much has changed...

 

[Zoii]

Spot on. But many of them were probably ordained before the current era of psychological testing and rigorous assessment. I know (much) older clergy who can tell you about when being selected for ordination meant having tea at bishopscourt and a civilised chat about the cricket, and if the bishop thought you were "sound" (which had as much to do with your table manners as your theology) you'd be a shoo-in.

So much has changed...

Where do you think clergy's anger came from. Are there specific issues for clergy that contribute to this? Or is this more a question for perps of DV in general.

 

[Paidiske]

Where do you think clergy's anger came from. Are there specific issues for clergy that contribute to this? Or is this more a question for perps of DV in general.

Clergy stress is very real. It's not hard for us to feel trapped and powerless, as if our role is asking us to do the impossible. There are always more demands than we can possibly meet, and feeling as if you're failing God at every turn can leave a person incredibly fragile.

There are two unhealthy ways to deal with that; turning it inwards, blaming yourself, having a nervous breakdown, etc; and turning it outwards, blaming others, lashing out at them.

None of this excuses abuse, of course. But I do think there are dynamics peculiar to being clergy which are very unhealthy and not even talked about enough.

 

[Zoii]

Clergy stress is very real. It's not hard for us to feel trapped and powerless, as if our role is asking us to do the impossible. There are always more demands than we can possibly meet, and feeling as if you're failing God at every turn can leave a person incredibly fragile.

There are two unhealthy ways to deal with that; turning it inwards, blaming yourself, having a nervous breakdown, etc; and turning it outwards, blaming others, lashing out at them.

None of this excuses abuse, of course. But I do think there are dynamics peculiar to being clergy which are very unhealthy and not even talked about enough.

Mum is a psychoanalyst & ounsellor. She deals mostly with trauma victims, or teens with borderline personality disorders. As part of mums accreditation, she must have "supervision" which often acts as counseling for the counsellor. It's a similar thing in place for clergy? Where do you go if your a male clergy taking anger out on your wife.

Where do you go if your feeling like your under untenable pressure.

 

[Paidiske]

I have supervision, and it is encouraged, but not mandatory. I have heard suggestions that it should be made mandatory but consider that unlikely in the foreseeable future.

Where do you go... well, this is the problem for the abusive clergy person. Where could he go that would not involve likely being stood down from his job? His GP, maybe; I'm not sure if they'd have to report ongoing abuse of an adult?

 

[Zoii]

I have supervision, and it is encouraged, but not mandatory. I have heard suggestions that it should be made mandatory but consider that unlikely in the foreseeable future.

Where do you go... well, this is the problem for the abusive clergy person. Where could he go that would not involve likely being stood down from his job? His GP, maybe; I'm not sure if they'd have to report ongoing abuse of an adult?

Is your supervision someone independent of your work?

 

[Paidiske]

Is your supervision someone independent of your work?

Yes, but it was made very clear to me that confidentiality does not apply to a situation where I am harming myself or another, or putting anyone at risk. I fully expect if I were to disclose such a thing there would be a phone call to my bishop, and rightly so!

 

[Zoii]

Yes, but it was made very clear to me that confidentiality does not apply to a situation where I am harming myself or another, or putting anyone at risk. I fully expect if I were to disclose such a thing there would be a phone call to my bishop, and rightly so!

My mother says the same to her clients but its more that - If criminal activity is disclosed she may be required to disclose it under subpoena. If there is a suspicion of child sexual abuse , she must report mandatorily.

And my counsellor has told me - If she is worried for my welfare my parents will be told and Ive agreed. Not that these days thats an issue but was when I was 12-13.

 

[Paidiske]

Here's a follow up article to the ABC report: Conservative Christians need to stamp out clergy wife abuse - starting with ending endemic sexism

I have a nodding acquaintance with the author and wouldn't agree with her on everything, but I think she's spot on, here.

 

[Zoii]

Here's a follow up article to the ABC report: Conservative Christians need to stamp out clergy wife abuse - starting with ending endemic sexism

I have a nodding acquaintance with the author and wouldn't agree with her on everything, but I think she's spot on, here.

I liked this article - but its made me feel quite sad too. Im feeling really despondent about Christianity. It just feels like a battle. I seldom find it nurturing. I realize I have moments like this and part of the reason is my history. But I also know that its not just my intrinsic issues but external boundaries and bumpers like Im inside some sort of pinball machine.

I question so much but Im in an environment within Christianity where questioning is frequently frowned on. Only total acceptance and submission to the words written on a page is good enough whether it affects you adversely or not.

Im at a point where I question the very basics. The foundation of it all. If a man turned up and said his father was God and therefore that made him god...in fact he was his father. It wouldn't go down well. It didnt back then and he was executed for it. But was he speaking the truth. I know you good people here dont doubt the veracity of his words. I do though.

And if I have doubts about that it just escalates when Im asked to accept the story of Noah, or the origin of languages via Babel, or the evolution of our humanity via Adam n Eve. I'm doing a BSc and the foundations of these scriptures are at odds with my scientific learning and my radar of what makes sense. Yet theres tremendous good that comes out of christianity as well.

I probably just need to seek elsewhere for a while.