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Featured Is "Christian Zionism" an Oxymoron?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by BABerean2, Nov 17, 2017.

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  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    John Nelson Darby came to America around the time of the Civil War and brought the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology to our nation.

    The doctrine was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible.
    After that time, the doctrine spread like a virus through the modern evangelical Church.
    Some people sitting in modern Southern Baptist churches have never heard anything else.
    Dispensational preachers like John Hagee and Dr. David Jeremiah dominate much of Christian television in the United States.


    The doctrine claims that at some future point in time modern descendants of Jacob will come to salvation outside of the Church.

    Today millions of Christians all over the world support the cause of "Zionism".
    Thousands of American soldiers have been killed in the Middle East during my lifetime.


    Recently the present Lord Rothschild admitted the role that his family of money-changers played in the creation of the modern State of Israel.

    Some American Christians have given financially to rebuild a Jewish temple in Jerusalem, whose goal is to renew animal sacrifices.

    Is the modern Zionist movement really "Christian", based on 1 John 2:22-23?



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  2. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    I think it needs to be borne in mind that all that the Old Testament promises is not to do with the church, which, as Ephesians says, is a revealed mystery; this mystery was hidden from Old Testament writers. So it's not easy to dismiss writers who distinguish between Israel and the church in Scripture.
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

    On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36.

    In Romans 11:1 Paul still refers to himself as an "Israelite", even after his conversion.

    In James 1:1-4 the half brother of Christ addresses the letter to, "the twelve tribes scattered abroad".

    Nobody can deny the fact that during the first few years of the Church it was made up mainly of Israelites.
    The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church".


    Based on Matthew 1:1, Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel.
    This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.

    On the road to Emmaus Christ clearly stated that the whole Old Testament is about Him.
    (Luke 24:25-27)



    The modern state of Israel was created through the political efforts of the family found below.
    It is a part of one of the greatest deceptions in the history of the Church.




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    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
  4. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    I was talking more about the distinction between the church and Israel. Paul distinguishes in 1 Corinthians 10.32 between Jew, Gentile and church of God; blurring these distinctions doesn't help.
     
  5. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    The way I see it, the US funded Israel has become an idol.
    .
    If the present day Israel was genuinely of God, it wouldn't need an Egypt like the US to support it.
     
  6. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    While dispensationalism is a giant spiderweb of deciet. What I don’t understand is the extremism on either side of the debate about modern Israel. Is there no room for the modern nation Israel amoungst those who correctly understand that the eternal plan of God was always for all nations through the Gospel? That ancient Israel was God’s means of getting his word into the earth as well as a beachhead for his long planned d-day invasion of planet earth by his invisible kingdom? Why can’t modern Israel be of God without bringing fake Zionistic teachings into it? Why can’t the modern nation be viewed as a act of the mercy of God working through nations under the influence of the Gospel, the Word and his government? Why can’t that nation be viewed as a haven of rest for a people that Satan bears great animosity towards for bringing the Word into the earth? Someone educate me on this.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  7. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    I am under the impression that the modern day Israel was created as a place for people not welcome back in Europe after the holocaust, and since then has become a place of conflict with its neighbours. It would be nice if a biblical restored Israel out of the prophecies just popped out of nowhere because God made it happen, but that's not really part of our purpose as a church, even the apostles asked about that at the beginning of acts and Jesus basically said none of your business, go preach the gospel.
     
  8. jeancommunicates

    jeancommunicates New Member

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    Have you ever considered that God has chosen Israel to be an example for the rest of us? To show what happens to a nation that rejects God. He certainly chose Israel to be the nation that would bring forth His Son, Jesus the Christ.

    Jeremiah shouted (Jeremiah 31:10) "Hear the word of the Lord, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock." Verse 11. For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob (Israel) and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he. 12. Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the Lord, for wheat, and for wine , and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd, and their soul shall be as a watered garden, and they shall not sorrow any more at all." And verse 17 And THERE IS HOPE IN THINE END, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border."

    Romans 11:25-26 as written by Paul
    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sakes; but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief. Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

    How else could Paul say it but that God used the Jewish People for our well being. God used the Jewish People as an example to what happens to a nation that forgets God.
    From the moment God chose them, Satan has hated them with a passion. Satan knew in Genesis 3:15 in the Garden of Eden that the seed of the woman was coming to bruise his head, because Satan is the enemy of the human race.

    Ezekiel 11:17 "Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

    Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

    Three powerful prophets declared the future of Israel - Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Isaiah.

    God chose Israel for Himself and the greatest accomplishment was as Isaiah said in chapter 9 verse 6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

    God made a lot of promises in the Bible and God doesn't break promises. Praise His Holy Name, Jesus.
     
  9. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

    The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in the first verse in the New Testament.
    (Matthew 1:1)
    This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.


    We are warned below about using other genealogies in our faith.

    1Ti_1:4  Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


    Tit_3:9  But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.


    On the road to Emmaus Christ revealed that the whole Old Testament is about Him.
    (Luke 24:25-27)

    He is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel.

    .
     
  10. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In God's New Will and Testament, all promises are fulfilled in Christ.

    The OT promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator.

    If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following, or its equivalent:

    "I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

    This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

    We see the new promissory clauses of God's New Will and Testament in:

    Matthew 21:33-45
    In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

    Galatians 3:16
    Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    2 Corinthians 1:20
    For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    Hebrews 1:1,2
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    and other scriptures. In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

    Additional promissory clauses in:

    Romans 8:16-17
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Galatians 3:29
    And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.


    But there are no promissory clauses for anyone who is not in Christ.
     
  11. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
    Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
    Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
    Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


    Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

    Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
     
  12. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    Current day Israel is as a liberal evil disaster as the USA, Revelation 11:8 likens Jerusalem to Sodom & Egypt.

    Judaism is heavily involved with the Talmud and occultic Kabbalah as their guides.

    The homosexual gay pride parade has been marching in Jerusalem for the last 15 years, Tel Aviv for 20 years.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
  13. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Yeah just like every other country in the world. God is influencing and so is the devil. What does that have to do with I said though?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    1Jn 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 
    1Jn 2:23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 


    There have always been two different groups of Israelites, one faithful to God and one which turned away from God to idols.
    Paul confirms this in Romans 11:1-3.


    Unfortunately, the Rothschild family and those who use the Babylonian Talmud and the Kaballah as their source of truth fall into the second group. They are now running the modern State of Israel.

    If we want modern Israelites to be saved, we need to show them "the suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, and the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of the New Covenant Messiah found in Daniel chapter 9. These passages found in the Hebrew scriptures prove that the baby born in the manger is the Old Testament Messiah.

    There is now no difference between a naked native living in the Amazon Rain Forest and a modern descendant of Jacob living in the Middle East. They both need Christ for the same reason and in the same way.

    Sadly, each year thousands of modern Jews die without Christ.
    The modern Two Peoples of God doctrine is partially responsible for those lost souls.
    We should be using New Covenant Theology to help show them the truth.



    Below is a modern American Jew who found the promise of the New Covenant in his Hebrew scriptures.



    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  15. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Biblical Teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul:

    The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...

    John N. Darby and C.I. Scofield DID NOT originate the teachings of the pre-trib rapture, as you have been refuted by the Scriptures many times over, as posted above. When are you going to stop using it as a crutch and false prophecy?

    What is the heretic replacement theology (supersessionism) and the Israel of God ?


    Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism), and the God of Israel, essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. All the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel can be divided into two camps: either the church is a continuation of Israel (replacement/covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism)
    .
    Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are “spiritualized” or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

    The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God's program during these past 2000 years of dispersion.

    With reference to the Israel of God, referred to by Paul, in Gal.6:16; which he meant, all those Israelites who had believed in Christ, out of the nation as a whole, who had rejected Him as their Messiah. Who then had become members of the one body of Christ, His Church, 1 Cor.12:12-13. As is the very same situation today, when a Jewish person who is an Israeli, receives Christ as Lord, he becomes a member of the one body of Christ, His Church. Which can be better understood when pointing out that all believers are then grafted into the root, in Rom.11:17, or the vine, in Jn.15:5 where Jesus states refers to Him, and we are the branches. Nowhere is there found any support for believers to be grafted into Israel. The best way to observe all people of God, is to see us as His elect. Whether believers who were or are now, Israelis, Jews or Gentiles out of every nation on the earth.

    After the rapture, God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth, in His second coming, at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him, in Zech.12:10. The remnant of Israel which survives the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ, in His armies from heaven (Rev.19:14) and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Rev.20:4, 6).

    Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a premillennial/dispensational understanding of God's plan for Israel. Even so, the strongest support for premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says six times that Christ's kingdom will last 1000 years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God's plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen, in Zech.12:10, fulfilling Romans 11:25-26.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  16. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

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    It's not replacement theology Quasar :)

    "Inheritance Theology" :)

    You mention the word "Heretical", Zionism would be at the top of the list!

    Romans 9:4-8
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The best example of "Replacement Theology" is replacing the One Seed with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

    It replaces the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

    It replaces the Son as "heir" to the land in Matthew 21, with those who have rejected Him as the "chief cornerstone".


    It ignores the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

    It ignores the fact that Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36, on the Day of Pentecost.

    It ignores Paul referring to himself as an "Israelite" in Romans 11:1.

    It ignores James addressing his letter to "the twelve tribes".


    Any doctrine which must twist or ignore scripture to make it work cannot be correct.

    .
     
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  18. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Post #15 refutes you. Your post denigrates what you disdain as Zionism being oxymoron. Now your attempting to deny your own claims?

    You're not kidding anyone!


    Quassar92
     
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    June 8, 1967, the day Israel attacked America:



    Over thirty sailors aboard the U.S.S. Liberty were killed, most by an Israeli torpedo that blew a huge hole in the side of the ship.
    However, the Liberty refused to sink.


    It is one of the most decorated ships in the history of the United States Navy.

    The captain received the Congressional Medal of Honor.
    However, it was not presented in the White House, because then the American people would have known the truth about who tried to sink an American ship to promote the goal of
    "Zionism".


    .
     
  20. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Scriptural facts posted in #15 not only refute you, but reveal how far off the mark you are.


    Quasar92
     
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