Is "Christian Zionism" an Oxymoron?

[Brian Mcnamee]

Classic Dispensationalists believe God will again go back to dealing with the modern nation of Israel after the end of the “Church Age”. They claim the Church is a “parenthesis” in God’s dealings with the nation of Israel.



Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.

Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.

John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”
John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25


The greatest error of Walvoord's doctrine is the claim that one day modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church.
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant, Walvoord's Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart.


The New Covenant: Bob George

Jer_31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—


Mat_26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Mar_14:24　 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.


Luk_22:20　 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.


1Co_11:25　 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."


2Co_3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


Heb_8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—


Heb_8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Heb_9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


Heb_12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

NKJV

.

Classic Dispensationalists believe God will again go back to dealing with the modern nation of Israel after the end of the “Church Age”. They claim the Church is a “parenthesis” in God’s dealings with the nation of Israel.



Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.

Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.

John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”
John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25


The greatest error of Walvoord's doctrine is the claim that one day modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church.
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant, Walvoord's Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart.


The New Covenant: Bob George

Jer_31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—


Mat_26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Mar_14:24　 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.


Luk_22:20　 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.


1Co_11:25　 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."


2Co_3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


Heb_8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—


Heb_8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Heb_9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


Heb_12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

NKJV

.

I like your presentation of the new covenant and its related scriptures. You have not looked at the text carefully as the new covenant was promised to replace the covenant made with them when they were taken out of Egypt. God has made many covenants and your presentation agree with one covenant for the forgiveness of sins. God made covenant after the flood and this new covenant has nothing to do with replacing that covenant. The covenant with Abraham being father of a great nation and father of many nations and giving this one nation the land of Canaan as a everlasting possession precedes the new covenant and was not annulled by the new covenant. I showed in my earlier post that Jer 31 God affirms as long as sun and moon endure Israel will not cease to be a nation before Gods eyes and says He will not cast them away for all they have done. He promises a day when the gates of Jerusalem will be secure and will stand forever. He mentions at that time a great many dead bodies outside the gates.
In Luke one Zacharias the father of John the Baptist speaks of Jesus being a horn of salvation and that God would keep his covenant that Israel would be delivered from their enemies to worship and serve without fear in holiness all the days of their lives. This deliverance is viewed in Zech 14 at the 2nd coming when the LORD comes with all of his saints and His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives and it will split forming a new valley. The nations have come against Jerusalem and the LORD fights melting the enemies. In that day the LORD shall be king over all the earth. In that day they shall say the LORD is one. This is Israel confession that Jesus and the Father are God. This is the day of Jacobs trouble and He is saved out of it. This is the deliverance Zacharias saw and the same time Jer saw when the gates will be secured with the dead many outside. This is Bible prophecy and there are hundreds or related specific events that demonstrate Israel and the church are separate entities and both saved through the new covenant. This is when Israel is grafted back onto the vine.
Here is Zechariah 8 is one prophecy that speaks of all the nations coming to Jerusalem to seek the LORD
20 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:
‘Peoples shall yet come,
Inhabitants of many cities;
21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying,
“Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD,
And seek the LORD of hosts.
I myself will go also.”
22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations
Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem,
And to pray before the LORD.’
23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.” ’ ”
20 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:
‘Peoples shall yet come,
Inhabitants of many cities;
21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying,
“Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD,
And seek the LORD of hosts.
I myself will go also.”
22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations
Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem,
And to pray before the LORD.’
23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.” 

This is a future prophecy when the LORD is king over all the earth and the nations do flow in and out seeking the LORD and you can see that a Jewish man is now revered.
Joel also speaks of that day
Then the LORD will be zealous for His land,
And pity His people.
19 The LORD will answer and say to His people,
“Behold, I will send you grain and new wine and oil,
And you will be satisfied by them;
I will no longer make you a reproach among the nations.
20 “But I will remove far from you the northern army,
And will drive him away into a barren and desolate land,
With his face toward the eastern sea
And his back toward the western sea;
His stench will come up,
And his foul odor will rise,
Because he has done monstrous things.”
Israel is still the reproach of the nations. God will take that away at the 2nd coming.

 

[Servant232]

Psa 102:16
When YHWH shall build up Zion, He shall Appear in His Glory.

Tit 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the Glorious Appearing of the great God and our Saviour YESHUA Mashiach.


For Forty days after the resurrection YESHUA taught concerning the Kingdom of God. Acts 1:3

And Only One question that the disciples asked Him is recorded for us to consider.

They asked, "Will You at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" Acts 1:6

Zion is all twelve tribes of Israel united, appointing one Shepherd as their Head, and following His Instructions in the Promise Land.

Then He shall return in His Glory.



Jer 31:35
Thus saith YHWH, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; YHWH of Hosts is His Name:

36
If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith YHWH, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.


Christian zionism is a oxymoron by the way - Zion is Only for His people Israel.

Jer 3:11
And YHWH said unto Me, The backsliding Israel has justified herself (christendom) more than treacherous Judah. Joel 3:1 Joel 3:2



Jer 3:14
Turn, O backsliding children, saith YHWH; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

 

[BABerean2]

You have not looked at the text carefully as the new covenant was promised to replace the covenant made with them when they were taken out of Egypt.

I have spent several years studying the New Covenant, and have studied the text very carefully during that time.

I have also read several books on the New Covenant.
Two of the best are...

"Abraham's Four Seeds", by John G. Reisinger

"Christ is All", by David H. J. Gay


I am also a part of a New Covenant Theology study group and was invited to join by author David Gay.


The promise of the New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-34 was given long after Israel came out of Egypt.

It is found fulfilled word-for-word by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Based on Matthew 1:1 Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel.
This is confirmed by Galatians 3:16.

Christ is also the "son" who is the ultimate "heir" to the land in Matthew chapter 21.
He stated that the kingdom would be taken from those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone", and it would be given to a nation bringing forth fruit.
That "holy" nation that accepted the "chief cornerstone" is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.


Based on 1 John 2:22-23, those who reject God's Son do not inherit any land promised by God.

.

 

[Douggg]

Is the modern Zionist movement really "Christian", based on 1 John 2:22-23?

.

Israel does not equate to Kingdom of God.

All a person has to do to enter Israel is get a visa or apply for citizenship if they are a Jew. To enter the Kingdom of God, be saved, and have eternal life, there is but one way and that is by Jesus.

I am for both. I don't see a conflict.

 

[redleghunter]

The dispensational futurism of which Walvoord was a modern proponent was rooted in the 16th century counter-reformation of the apostate papacy. Francisco Ribera, of the newly formed Jesuit society of that period, contrived the counterfeit doctrine of a futurized antichrist in an attempt to thwart the Reformation declaration of the papacy itself as antichrist. Manuel Lacunza built upon Ribera's deception in an ensuing period with the fundamentals of the pretribulation rapture doctrine. These doctrines are integral and indispensable to modern dispensationalism.

The very early church theologians, Irenaeus one of which, saw a future man of sin. The early church (before 3rd century AD) were futurists. Not in the Dispensationalists cloth mind you yet futurists.

 

[redleghunter]

The greatest error of Walvoord's doctrine is the claim that one day modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church.

Yet he did not say that.

 

[Servant232]

The most common error that is repeated over and over is that the tribe of Judah, The Jewish People are All the tribes of Israel, and that the totality of the 144,000 will be Jews, having been programmed to think that way by the constant repetition of those that shouldn't be teachers in the first place...

The Jewish People constitute one of twelve tribes, 12,000 that are Jewish will be sealed, There are today, those that know they are of Judah and believe in YESHUA, and those that don't know Yet, their tribal identity is Judah..

144,000 Deliverers Shall Come, and they shall be the shepherds, that will lead back the assemblies to the promised land.

And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of esau; and the Kingdom shall be YHWH's. Obadiah 1:21 - Revelation 11:15

Plural ~ saviours

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's Name written in their foreheads. Revelation 14:1


And YHWH will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the Glory shall be a defence. Isaiah 4:5

Plural ~ assemblies

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him (Jacob) marvellous things. Micah 7:15

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. Jeremiah 30:6 - Revelation 3:10


Jeremiah 23

3
And I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

7
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that they shall no more say, YHWH Liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

8
But, YHWH Liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Ezekiel 20

33
As I Live, saith Adonai YHWH, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34
And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.


Remember Lot's wife!

When and If you get the opportunity to enter into one of the assemblies of Zion when they come.

Because It is not the alien invasion that many have been programmed to believe might happen, project blue beam and such to replicate, either way.... Those assemblies will be His Defense to keep you out of the Great Tribulation under His Canopy/ Chuppah.

What you are to pray and watch always that you be accounted worthy to escape therein, keeping you out of the hour of trial.

The Gathering together to Him

Zion

 

[JIMINZ]

I have spent several years studying the New Covenant, and have studied the text very carefully during that time.

I have also read several books on the New Covenant.
Two of the best are...

"Abraham's Four Seeds", by John G. Reisinger

"Christ is All", by David H. J. Gay


I am also a part of a New Covenant Theology study group and was invited to join by author David Gay.


The promise of the New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-34 was given long after Israel came out of Egypt.

It is found fulfilled word-for-word by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Based on Matthew 1:1 Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel.
This is confirmed by Galatians 3:16.

Christ is also the "son" who is the ultimate "heir" to the land in Matthew chapter 21.
He stated that the kingdom would be taken from those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone", and it would be given to a nation bringing forth fruit.
That "holy" nation that accepted the "chief cornerstone" is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.


Based on 1 John 2:22-23, those who reject God's Son do not inherit any land promised by God.

.

.
Rom. 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.


Rom. 11:23
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in:
for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:20
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:


Rom. 11:21
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

 

[jgr]

The very early church theologians, Irenaeus one of which, saw a future man of sin. The early church (before 3rd century AD) were futurists. Not in the Dispensationalists cloth mind you yet futurists.

You are correct, they were futurists. But the nadir of the apostasy of the papacy, i.e. the scriptural man of sin, was still some 1,000 years future from their time. If they had lived (supernaturally) until that time, which coincided with the early days of the Reformation, they would have been historicists along with the Reformers.

 

[redleghunter]

You are correct, they were futurists. But the nadir of the apostasy of the papacy was still some 1,000 years future from their time. If they had lived until that time, which coincided with the early days of the Reformation, they would have been historicists along with the Reformers.

It is your belief the papacy took on the man of sin personification? Just asking.

 

[jgr]

It is your belief the papacy took on the man of sin personification? Just asking.

Yes, along with the Reformers.

FYI, I like your 5 solas. They are of particular significance on this 500th anniversary of the Reformation.

 

[Douggg]

The very early church theologians, Irenaeus one of which, saw a future man of sin. The early church (before 3rd century AD) were futurists. Not in the Dispensationalists cloth mind you yet futurists.

The bottom line is that Dispensationalists is not an interchangeable term with futurists.

 

[redleghunter]

The bottom line is that Dispensationalists is not an interchangeable term with futurists.

True. There are historic futurists who see a literal tribulation and literal physical Kingdom rule of Christ on earth for 1k years. My personal opinion is this is the most humble and cautious of approaches to prophecy.

 

[BABerean2]

Rom. 11:23
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in:
for God is able to graff them in again.

What is the emphasis of the verse above?

Rom 11:23　 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.　

Rom 11:24　 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?　

Rom 11:25　 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.　

Rom 11:26　 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:　

And (Greek "houto") in this "manner" they shall be saved, which refers back to verse 23.
They can only be saved by being grafted back into their own Olive Tree, through faith in Christ.

The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into the same Olive Tree.

There is no Plan B outside of the New Covenant Church of Christ.

.

Rom 11:27　 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.　

The word "covenant" in the verse above was announced at the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28.
The sins of all races of people was taken away on the Cross of Calvary.

He has built us a "New House" out of two pieces of wood and a handful of nails.
It is found in Hebrews 12:22-24.

.

 

[jgr]

The bottom line is that Dispensationalists is not an interchangeable term with futurists.

What examples do you have of either who are not the other?

 

[Douggg]

What examples do you have of either who are not the other?

Well, I am a futurist but not a dispensationalist.

 

[jgr]

Well, I am a futurist but not a dispensationalist.

What dispensational doctrines do you reject?

 

[Douggg]

What dispensational doctrines do you reject?

The concept of dividing up history into different dispensation periods claiming that God has interacted with man differently according to what dispensation.

 

[jgr]

The concept of dividing up history into different dispensation periods claiming that God has interacted with man differently according to what dispensation.

If that's all, that's less than 10% of dispensational distinctives.

 

[Douggg]

If that's all, that's less than 10% of dispensational distinctives.

How are you coming up with 10% ? It is 100% because a person cannot be a dispensationalist without dividing history up as I wrote.