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Featured Is "Christian Zionism" an Oxymoron?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by BABerean2, Nov 17, 2017.

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  1. DreamerOfTheHeart

    DreamerOfTheHeart Love is the Foundation of Truth

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    People of earth are concerned about the things of earth. People of the true Zion, of The City, are not concerned. This is why they saw Satan released on earth and said "woe to the earth".

    'Jerusalem will be a city without walls, its' number innumerable' which means the City extends far beyond the physical location of Israel.

    And, 'the knowledge of God will fill the earth as the waters cover the seas'.

    But, to argue we have none in Israel, and will not expand that would be to go against Scripture and the dictates of spirit, of true heart.

    We will certainly save and empower physical Israel, as a signature of the Message.

    Salvation is not a power of mere human mortals who have no experience with the infinite, besides what their small imaginations provide them, and their arrogance allow. But, salvation is by the Spirit.

    For earth, the wars fought there have been fought for the reasons their leaders have supplied. These are obvious reasons, and clear to understand. There is no reason to try and turn people against each other by lies.

    For Heaven, the reasons are mysterious, and simply not given to earth.
     
  2. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    The above is a bit over dramatic and historically in error.

    How the author jumps from Darby to Hagee shows lack of historical knowledge of the subject.
     
  3. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

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    In some ways, Christian Zionism offers a sense of pluralism to the literalist crowd that is of the belief that "there is no salvation outside of Christ".
     
  4. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Is there Salvation outside of Christ?
     
  5. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Active Member

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    There is a distinct destiny of national Israel in prophecy and no one teaches salvation for Jews outside of coming to faith in Jesus Christ. All these threads tend to retrace the same arguments. The fact that the Rothchild's had a part in creating Israel is not proof of any kind that this is contrary to the scripture. The nation of Israel and the Temple must be standing for the abomination of desolation to take place. The UN which created Israel has done nothing but condemn Israel ever since. The global elite will get their one world government and it will be administered through the UN which has the messianic verse written outside their building in NY.Isiaah 2
    They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
    And their spears into pruning hooks;
    Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
    Neither shall they learn war anymore.

    The anitchrist will come to power and all prophecy will play out. In Jer 31 when the new covenant is given there is the promise that specific gates in Jerusalem will never be torn down again. And that as long as son and moon endure Israel will not cease to be a nation. Jer 31
    Thus says the LORD,
    Who gives the sun for a light by day,
    The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
    Who disturbs the sea,
    And its waves roar
    (The LORD of hosts is His name):
    36 “If those ordinances depart
    From before Me, says the LORD,
    Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
    From being a nation before Me forever.”
    37 Thus says the LORD:
    “If heaven above can be measured,
    And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
    I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
    For all that they have done, says the LORD.
    38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

    I can integrate current events will all the transitional prophecy leading up to the 7 year tribulation and the return of Christ and the transition into the 1000 year millennial kingdom and there is a distinction between Jews and Gentiles and specific events in Jerusalem that relate to their great deliverance and conversion. Its too bad you see it this way you are missing the key plot lines in the book as we are approaching the climax. I leave the rapture out as it will either happen or not but this destiny is certain.
     
  6. RisenInJesus

    RisenInJesus Well-Known Member

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    What does this mean? According to the scriptures salvation is found in Jesus Christ... not the church.
     
  7. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How much of what type of DNA does it take to qualify as Israel?
     
  8. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    What you said is a fair example of the extremism on both sides I referred to. Can you speak to me as someone who knows, ( better than you I think) that the whole two different covenant people, two ways of salvation is total heresy yet believes that the modern nation of Israel is totally of God? Can you think of me as someone who totally rejects pop culture end time teachings and knows for an absolute fact that the modern nation of Israel has a big fat zero to do with any end time scenario yet it was Gods will for it to be founded? Can you picture someone if fully aware of the fact that the "church" has always existed? Before Abraham then mostly in ancient Israel and now everywhere. That it has always consisted of those of faith of all nations? Yet still believes the modern nation of Israel with all its evil was planted by God? How about this? Can you conceive that someone who has known for years that Tel Aviv is the most gay friendly city in the world and that the modern nation was founded by mostly doctrinaire communists yet still knows its the fulfillment of specific New Testament prophecy? What prophecy?

    Romans 11: 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. (Meaning when enough gentiles get saved, When they start founding nations and Biblically based Christianity becomes a dominate influence in the world then.......) 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    And what better way to show Jewish people mercy in a world that has always disarmed them and sought to exterminated them. Than by giving them their own nation and allowing them to defend themselves against Satan's animosity against them because they were used by God.

    I cut my teeth as a new Christian in the southwest end of the San Fernando Valley which at the time was the third largest concentration of Jews in the world. Our church was full of Jewish people but we never let them "Judaize" the place. Not just that Jews have always been my favorite people to witness too because even though they may have no idea what's in the word. They have respect for it as part of their heritage and have always respected me because I cared for what it taught and was not afraid to show them.
    The link below is something I wrote 15 years ago on all the prophecy in Genesis about the Old and New Covenants.
    Bible Symbolism in Genesis

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  9. RisenInJesus

    RisenInJesus Well-Known Member

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    It was not John Darby, but it is the pages of scripture throughout which make a distinction between Jews, Gentiles, and the church. If this is not understood one cannot accurately understand the prophetic promises or the events taking place in the world today surrounding the nation of Israel...

    "Before the cross of Christ, mankind was divided into two groups: Jews and Gentiles. The Old and New Testaments both make very clear what caused this distinction. It was the covenants God had made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and with their descendants through Moses. These covenants were for Israel alone and separated her from all other nations on the face of the earth, making God's "chosen people" absolutely unique. Israel was segregated from other peoples by the Mosaic law and by her special relationship with the One who calls Himself "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" (Lev:20:24,26, etc.).


    The important distinction between Jews and Gentiles is maintained consistently throughout the Bible: "...so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth" (Ex 33:16); "...for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people that ye should be mine" (Lev:20:26); "And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his...own people for ever" (1 Chr:17:21-22 ); "...ye [Gentiles] were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God..." (Eph:2:12).


    After the Cross a new entity came into existence—the church that Jesus Christ promised He would build (Mt 16:18). As a result, there are now three divisions of mankind: Jews, Gentiles and the church. Paul tells us that we are to "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God" (1 Cor:10:32). It is absolutely essential to understand that these three groups exist side by side in today's world, to distinguish between them, and to recognize that God deals with each differently."

    Jews, Gentiles & the Church

    "[As J. C. Ryle notes]: “God has many witnesses to the truth of the Bible, if men would only examine them and listen to their evidence. But you may depend on it, there is no witness so unanswerable as one who always keeps standing up, and living, and moving before the eyes of mankind. That witness is the Jew. . . . The inspired volume which you have in your hands supplies a full and complete explanation. Search it with an honest determination to put a literal meaning on its prophetical portions, and to reject traditional interpretation, and the difficulty will vanish away. . . . Cultivate the habit of reading prophecy with a single eye to the literal meaning of its proper names. Cast aside the traditional idea that Jacob, and Israel, and Judah, and Jerusalem, and Zion must always mean the Gentile Church, and that predictions about the second Advent are to be taken spiritually, and first Advent predictions literally. Be just, and honest, and fair. If you expect the Jews to take the 53rd of Isaiah literally, be sure you take the 54th and 60th and 62nd literally also.”


    (J.C. Ryle, “And So All Israel Shall Be Saved,” in Are You Ready for the End of Time? [Fearn: 2001], pp. 150-57)'

    TBC Extra - Epilogue from "Understanding Christian Zionism" by Paul Wilkinson
     
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  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Here is a video I produced for YouTube on the history of modern Dispensational Theology.


    Genesis of Dispensational Theology





    For more history of the doctrine, see the references below.

    PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
    with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
    F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
    http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

    Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
    PDF Files

    Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
    Pastor Tim Warner
    http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

    Pretribulationist Revisionism
    (Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
    Pastor Tim Warner
    http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

    .
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Based on Luke 21:24-28 the times of the Gentiles ends at the future Second Coming of Christ.


    Luk 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 

    Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 

    Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 

    Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

    Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 

    ....................................................................................

    "As a result, there are now three divisions of mankind: Jews, Gentiles and the church."

    You seem to be ignoring the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

    When the Church began almost all of its members were Israelites.

    On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36.


    What does the New Testament say about genealogies?

    1Ti_1:4  Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


    Tit_3:9  But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.


    The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew 1:1.
    This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.


    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  12. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    The only age of the gentiles in scripture is the age of the four gentile empires. That ended over 500 years ago with the fall of the Roman Empire in 1453 AD. During that time period the New Jerusalem as well as the city in the Middle East was trodden under foot. We are in the age of promise.
     
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    Never heard of any of the above.

    Why not start with Walvoord?
     
  14. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Well-Known Member

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    Is "Christian Zionism" an Oxymoron?

    Yes it is.
     
  15. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

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    The more incisive question might be, what exactly is inside of Christ, and what is outside of Christ?

    As Christians, what we are assured of is that there is salvation in Christ, and that in the Gospel the Good news of Christ lies our salvation. It is good then to hold fast to what we already know.
    We know where Christ is, but what do not know is where Christ definitely is not.
    When it comes to the Jews especially, the writings of Paul leave us with enough of a mystery about the ultimate role of Jews in this world that it is good that we do not dismiss them all as doomed to eternal perdition.
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    Hebrews 12: KJV

    18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

    19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

    20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

    21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

    22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

    23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

    25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

    26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

    27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

    28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

    29 For our God is a consuming fire
    .
     
  17. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    Christian Zionism is an oxymoron as Jewish Zionists hate christians. And those Christian Zionists want to gather Jews in the desert to be killed off in the tribulation.
    Quite the sadistic ideology. Throw in the even more sadistic Israeli military doctrine of the Samson option to nuke western nations if they don't volunteer to fight Israelis enemies for them and you know why everyone hates the "Abrahamic religions"
     
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

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    Considering "Christian Zionist" is not a term people claim to be but usually a pejorative term some use to label others.

    Kind of how Christian Taliban is used. Or the common use of Fundamentalist when it is clear very few even know what that means.
     
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The dispensational futurism of which Walvoord was a modern proponent was rooted in the 16th century counter-reformation of the apostate papacy. Francisco Ribera, of the newly formed Jesuit society of that period, contrived the counterfeit doctrine of a futurized antichrist in an attempt to thwart the Reformation declaration of the papacy itself as antichrist. Manuel Lacunza built upon Ribera's deception in an ensuing period with the fundamentals of the pretribulation rapture doctrine. These doctrines are integral and indispensable to modern dispensationalism.
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Classic Dispensationalists believe God will again go back to dealing with the modern nation of Israel after the end of the “Church Age”. They claim the Church is a “parenthesis” in God’s dealings with the nation of Israel.



    Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

    “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”
    Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.

    Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”
    Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.

    John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

    "...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”
    John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25


    The greatest error of Walvoord's doctrine is the claim that one day modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church.
    Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant, Walvoord's Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart.



    The New Covenant: Bob George



    Jer_31:31  "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—


    Mat_26:28  For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


    Mar_14:24  And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.


    Luk_22:20  Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.


    1Co_11:25  In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."


    2Co_3:6  who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


    Heb_8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—


    Heb_8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


    Heb_9:15  And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


    Heb_12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

    NKJV


    .

     
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